bloodyminded Posted May 31, 2010 Report Share Posted May 31, 2010 I hear Hamas sells flowers door to door to raise money for sick kids... If you say so. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GostHacked Posted May 31, 2010 Report Share Posted May 31, 2010 I hear Hamas sells flowers door to door to raise money for sick kids... You are getting desperate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bloodyminded Posted May 31, 2010 Report Share Posted May 31, 2010 You are getting desperate. You're not kidding. He doesn't actually like debating. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M.Dancer Posted May 31, 2010 Report Share Posted May 31, 2010 weeks for this mission to send a threatening message to the world. “We can do whatever we want”. Your thought process is like this: International always applies if it benefits dancing and they are shit if they don’t (Blockade has to be respected but violation of international waters never). You gota fix your arguments Would you mind repharsing this in a coherent fashion....? I agree of course "Blockade has to be respected but violation of international waters never" We should not respect violation of international waters. [quote name='BCMan' date='31 May 2010 - 03:00 PM' timestamp='1275330753' post='544496' I will wait for more information before making further comments. Good idea Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Weber Posted May 31, 2010 Report Share Posted May 31, 2010 There is no such thing as 'off topic' re: history. Face it, the Palestinian cause, of which Hamas and Hezbollah are the current standard-bearers, is part of the Palestinian Arab legacy which started out with the good ol' Grand Mufti Haj Muhammed Amin al-Husseini...a Nazi SS-Obergruppenfuhrer and one of the chief figures in the Holocaust. His nephew headed the PLO...you might recall him...Yasser Arafat. Why you folks like to write his portion of human history out is understandable. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nSUEx1cKUlg I'm not certain Islam itself would agree with NAZI ideology... Pan-Arabism and Ba'Athism definately has ties to NAZI thinking...Mainly because of the "Jewish Question" issue... Maybe we should quote the Hamas manifesto,as it relates to Jews, to prove this??? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DogOnPorch Posted May 31, 2010 Report Share Posted May 31, 2010 If you say so. Is your George Galloway poster higher or lower on the wall than your Khaled Mashal poster? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DogOnPorch Posted May 31, 2010 Report Share Posted May 31, 2010 You're not kidding. He doesn't actually like debating. As soon as I smell Hamas supporters, I treat them like the deserve. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DogOnPorch Posted May 31, 2010 Report Share Posted May 31, 2010 I'm not certain Islam itself would agree with NAZI ideology... Pan-Arabism and Ba'Athism definately has ties to NAZI thinking...Mainly because of the "Jewish Question" issue... Maybe we should quote the Hamas manifesto,as it relates to Jews, to prove this??? The Mufti is responsible for the death of some 500-750 thousand Jews in Hungary, former Yugoslavia, etc. He was a full general in the SS and had his own private all Muslim SS army to do his bidding. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
naomiglover Posted May 31, 2010 Report Share Posted May 31, 2010 We should not respect violation of international waters. How come you are all for international waters laws but when it comes to international human rights laws, you're okay with defecating on them? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bloodyminded Posted May 31, 2010 Report Share Posted May 31, 2010 The powerful Western nations--who have objectively behaved far worse than Hamas, including in its oft-repeated material support for terrorists (some of whom were also objectively worse than Hamas)--recruited Nazis after the Second World War. But our Nazi coalitions were...different...somehow....oh yeah! that magical, talismanic phrase: "The Cold War"! All is forgiven. Given our support--both material and ideological--for terrorism far worse than anyhting in the most ambitious dreams of the most fanatical Hamas members; and given that this is open, public knowledge, meaning we have zero excuse not to know about it...I'm afraid I don't take all this sanctimonious moral denunciation of Hamas seriously. No sober, thinking, moral person should. It's embarassing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Weber Posted May 31, 2010 Report Share Posted May 31, 2010 The Mufti is responsible for the death of some 500-750 thousand Jews in Hungary, former Yugoslavia, etc. He was a full general in the SS and had his own private all Muslim SS army to do his bidding. I agree,however the question is was he a Pan-Arabist like Nasser or Haffez Al-Assad,and therefore a Muslim cleric of convenience,or just a Muslim cleric... I think a distinction must be made... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DogOnPorch Posted May 31, 2010 Report Share Posted May 31, 2010 The powerful Western nations--who have objectively behaved far worse than Hamas, including in its oft-repeated material support for terrorists (some of whom were also objectively worse than Hamas)--recruited Nazis after the Second World War. But our Nazi coalitions were...different...somehow....oh yeah! that magical, talismanic phrase: "The Cold War"! All is forgiven. Given our support--both material and ideological--for terrorism far worse than anyhting in the most ambitious dreams of the most fanatical Hamas members; and given that this is open, public knowledge, meaning we have zero excuse not to know about it...I'm afraid I don't take all this sanctimonious moral denunciation of Hamas seriously. No sober, thinking, moral person should. It's embarassing. Egypt, in fact, was one of the largest safe havens for old Nazis who still wanted a 'go' at the Jews. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Weber Posted May 31, 2010 Report Share Posted May 31, 2010 Egypt, in fact, was one of the largest safe havens for old Nazis who still wanted a 'go' at the Jews. See Nasser and his influences... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bloodyminded Posted May 31, 2010 Report Share Posted May 31, 2010 Egypt, in fact, was one of the largest safe havens for old Nazis who still wanted a 'go' at the Jews. Well, I'm not defending the actions of the Egyptians, not even a little bit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DogOnPorch Posted May 31, 2010 Report Share Posted May 31, 2010 I agree,however the question is was he a Pan-Arabist like Nasser or Haffez Al-Assad,and therefore a Muslim cleric of convenience,or just a Muslim cleric... I think a distinction must be made... The Mufti figured his family was in direct line with the Big M...thus the massive ego. It was he that brought forth the modern notion of the importance of Jerusalem to Islam...when it really wasn't. Omar was the first to do it... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GostHacked Posted May 31, 2010 Report Share Posted May 31, 2010 As soon as I smell Hamas supporters, I treat them like the deserve. Good thing I can't take you seriously. And you consider us 'friends'? And since you are calling me a Hammas supporter, how do you like being friends with a Hammas supporter? You are supporting terrorism as well. Here is your cake, now eat it. Obviously I called it and this thread is starting to get derailed. Although this will turn into a pissing match between certain posters, I hope we can avoid that in this thread. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JB Globe Posted May 31, 2010 Author Report Share Posted May 31, 2010 Youre first two posts indicate that the above is false. Not really. There is no allegation from the IDF that the boats picked up supplies en-route, and considering they were probably being monitored on satellite and drone cameras the entire trip, they would've posted the video by now, but they haven't. They seem to be insinuating that they had illegal cargo from their point of departure, which for the lead ship where the incident occurred, was Turkey - this is a slam at Turkey, which is a military ally of Israel and part of the reason why Turkey is so upset - it's implying that Turkish officials let a ship go that was containing illegal cargo such as weapons knowing it was going to Gaza. And for the record, Turkey is about as anti-Hamas as Israel is. And for that time-period from the departure until the incident we have the record of the journalists on board, Al-Jazeera for example had a camera man and/or a journalist on-duty 24/7 during the trip. If another boat approached and unloaded supplies, it would've been pretty obvious to them. Additionally - there is absolutely no need to smuggle weapons into Gaza by sea - it's far cheaper and easier to do it via the tunnels on the border between Egypt and Israel. In fact, according to a recent This American Life podcast I listened to, one tunnel owner has taken to shipping weapons OUT of Gaza because there's too much supply and he can get a good price in Egypt. Israel is fully aware of all of this, however this raid on the boats wasn't about if they had or didn't have weapons - it was because Bibi's government needs to keep being brutal and dumb if it wants to please it's base and stay in power. And for that base collectively punishing Gazans is something they want. Like this one.... Oh another if they didn't see it it couldn't have happened? If a bear shit is the wooods. and you can't smell it, does it still attract flies? Trusting journalists more than militaries is always a safe bet. Especially when that military is the IDF - it's foolish to take what they say at face value, given their history. Lets face it, you don't know what you are talking about but it ain't stopping you one bit. We have a pretty good idea of what happened PRIOR to the incident at this point, due to the hourly reports coming off the ship. What's in-question is specifics of the commando raid on the Marmara. The only thing we do know about the incident is that the IDF didn't follow standard procedure - and for the record, even Israelis are pissed off about that, so the question is if they can be self-critical to that degree, why is it so hard for you to do so? After all, they have a lot more invested in the whole incident. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M.Dancer Posted May 31, 2010 Report Share Posted May 31, 2010 How come you are all for international waters laws but when it comes to international human rights laws, you're okay with defecating on them? Because the apologists for terrorism are all over human rights. even while they ignore violations around the world (wink wink)...while international waters are open for trade and commerce. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DogOnPorch Posted May 31, 2010 Report Share Posted May 31, 2010 Good thing I can't take you seriously. And you consider us 'friends'? And since you are calling me a Hammas supporter, how do you like being friends with a Hammas supporter? You are supporting terrorism as well. Here is your cake, now eat it. Obviously I called it and this thread is starting to get derailed. You're still a friend. I just think you're playing in waters you have little clue as to how deep they really are. I think you're a gifted musician...not one who should get mixed-up in old feuds. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JB Globe Posted May 31, 2010 Author Report Share Posted May 31, 2010 It’s clear that the IDF prepared for several weeks for this mission to send a threatening message to the world. “We can do whatever we want”. Actually, beyond deciding ahead of time that they wouldn't seek a diplomatic solution to the Flotilla vs Blockade conundrum and would use force, I'd argue that the IDF did little preparation for the actual incident. The whole thing seems like it came together last-minute, hence the sloppy initial statements from the deputy foreign minister where he accused the organizers of being in-league with Al-Qaeda. It was pathetic. Israelis are pretty angry about how sloppily this was all done. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M.Dancer Posted May 31, 2010 Report Share Posted May 31, 2010 Not really. ...... You do realize the convoy wasn't about bringing goods to Gaza, but about creating an international incident, don't you? If it was about simoply bringing goods, they could have docked in EQgypt...if it was about confrontation, they wouldn't have needed media....if oit was about peaceful resistance, they wouldn't have attacked the commandoes. The headlines should read. Israel Shows Great Restraint: Does not sink Ship of Fools Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DogOnPorch Posted May 31, 2010 Report Share Posted May 31, 2010 Israelis are pretty angry about how sloppily this was all done. Pretty easy to say when it isn't their l'il bods being dropped via helicopter into a hostile situation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dre Posted May 31, 2010 Report Share Posted May 31, 2010 Not sure why anyone is suprised about this. Collective punishment doesnt work if you cant control the flow of goods to an area. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DogOnPorch Posted May 31, 2010 Report Share Posted May 31, 2010 Not sure why anyone is suprised about this. Collective punishment doesnt work if you cant control the flow of goods to an area. Collectively, why don't the residents of Gaza get rid of Hamas? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Weber Posted May 31, 2010 Report Share Posted May 31, 2010 Collectively, why don't the residents of Gaza get rid of Hamas? I suspect,because Hamas is really good at intimidation and thuggery,they realize they might have a civil war on thier hands if they try to get rid of Hamas... Either that,or they prefer the Hamas way of dealing with the Israeli's? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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