Michael Hardner Posted May 17, 2010 Report Share Posted May 17, 2010 WashingtonCityPaper That puts things in perspective, and I suppose explains why harsh opponents to gay marriage are hard to find. Even in the US there are mostly nuanced positions on this one to be found, usually framed in 'states rights' or somesuch. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bush_cheney2004 Posted May 17, 2010 Report Share Posted May 17, 2010 WashingtonCityPaper That puts things in perspective, and I suppose explains why harsh opponents to gay marriage are hard to find. Even in the US there are mostly nuanced positions on this one to be found, usually framed in 'states rights' or somesuch. "Even in the US"? You mean there are no nuanced positions to be found in Canada and elsewhere? Guess again.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wyly Posted May 17, 2010 Report Share Posted May 17, 2010 (edited) WashingtonCityPaper That puts things in perspective, and I suppose explains why harsh opponents to gay marriage are hard to find. Even in the US there are mostly nuanced positions on this one to be found, usually framed in 'states rights' or somesuch. you can sense the same thing on this forum, those furthest to the right generally have one foot in the grave... this is natural social progress, when I was a kid the entire country was much further to the right than we are now (yesteryears liberals are todays conservatives and todays liberals were yester days NDP)and by the time my kids are my age the country will be much more tolerant and further to the the left than we are today... prepare for a massive shift to the left once us "Boomers" are dead and buried and the politcal power base moves to a more socially enlightened and educated generation... Edited May 17, 2010 by wyly Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Hardner Posted May 17, 2010 Author Report Share Posted May 17, 2010 "Even in the US"? You mean there are no nuanced positions to be found in Canada and elsewhere? Guess again.... "Even in the US" as in "Gay marriage is less popular in America than in Canada" as in "There is more opposition to gay marriage in the US". There are nuanced positions everywhere - my point was that there is less outright opposition - even in the US where gay marriage is unpopular. And the reason (although written to a fine point in the referenced article) is that the market share of opponents is dying off. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shady Posted May 17, 2010 Report Share Posted May 17, 2010 "Even in the US" as in "Gay marriage is less popular in America than in Canada" as in "There is more opposition to gay marriage in the US". I'm not sure I agree. I think you may have an underlying prejudice. And the reason (although written to a fine point in the referenced article) is that the market share of opponents is dying off. I agree. This is similar to the opponents of abortion legislation. Society is trending more and more pro-life. The biggest reason is younger people in combination with science, such as 3D ultrasounds, etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bush_cheney2004 Posted May 17, 2010 Report Share Posted May 17, 2010 "Even in the US" as in "Gay marriage is less popular in America than in Canada" as in "There is more opposition to gay marriage in the US". But you inferred in another thread that "popular" doesn't equate to "right". Are we confused a little bit today? There are nuanced positions everywhere - my point was that there is less outright opposition - even in the US where gay marriage is unpopular. And the reason (although written to a fine point in the referenced article) is that the market share of opponents is dying off. And yet you seem to confine the domain to USA and Canada? Using the USA as the last remaining extreme to fall is silly at best, for if you were to travel the world, legally recognized "gay marriage" is uncommon. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Hardner Posted May 17, 2010 Author Report Share Posted May 17, 2010 I'm not sure I agree. I think you may have an underlying prejudice. You don't agree that gay marriage is less popular in the US ? I based that on studies that I read a few years' back when this was a hotter topic. I agree. This is similar to the opponents of abortion legislation. Society is trending more and more pro-life. The biggest reason is younger people in combination with science, such as 3D ultrasounds, etc. Interesting idea. Do you have a link ? In any case, this does make sense. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Hardner Posted May 17, 2010 Author Report Share Posted May 17, 2010 But you inferred in another thread that "popular" doesn't equate to "right". Are we confused a little bit today? Yes, popular doesn't equate to right. I'm not confused at all. I didn't say that it's right or wrong to support gay marriage. And yet you seem to confine the domain to USA and Canada? Using the USA as the last remaining extreme to fall is silly at best, for if you were to travel the world, legally recognized "gay marriage" is uncommon. To be clear - I do expect that there's more opposition elsewhere. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bush_cheney2004 Posted May 17, 2010 Report Share Posted May 17, 2010 ....To be clear - I do expect that there's more opposition elsewhere. Then what was your intention with the "Even in the US..." construct? Is your focus, like so many others here, only on one other nation when it comes to "gay marriage"? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Hardner Posted May 17, 2010 Author Report Share Posted May 17, 2010 Then what was your intention with the "Even in the US..." construct? Is your focus, like so many others here, only on one other nation when it comes to "gay marriage"? Well, I don't apologize for focusing on the US and Canada, no. Comparing Canada to the US is a pretty normal thing to do, isn't it ? In any case, the intention wasn't to single out the US but rather to point out that support for GM is stronger amongst aging demographics in the US and Canada. Who knows what it is in Yemen and who cares ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bush_cheney2004 Posted May 17, 2010 Report Share Posted May 17, 2010 Well, I don't apologize for focusing on the US and Canada, no. Comparing Canada to the US is a pretty normal thing to do, isn't it ? In any case, the intention wasn't to single out the US but rather to point out that support for GM is stronger amongst aging demographics in the US and Canada. Who knows what it is in Yemen and who cares ? Still, why is this important? The US federal Defense of Marriage Act remains on the books, as do many state laws defining marriage between a "man and a woman". It's as if you (and others) are seeking vindication for a civil rights issue now settled law in Canada and a handful of other nations. As for comparing Canada and the US....what else would you ever do? LOL! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Hardner Posted May 17, 2010 Author Report Share Posted May 17, 2010 Still, why is this important? The US federal Defense of Marriage Act remains on the books, as do many state laws defining marriage between a "man and a woman". It's as if you (and others) are seeking vindication for a civil rights issue now settled law in Canada and a handful of other nations. Why is it important ? I think that it's interesting to watch the acceptance of this custom roll out and to watch barriers fall. Also, I do support it so it's gratifying for me to see it adopted. I'm not seeing vindication at all. I accept that people have the right to oppose this change, and I understand the reasons why but eventually that opposition will melt away and demographics is but one reason. This take you have on issues "Why is it important ?" is kind of self-indulgent isn't it ? We aren't obliged to post on issues that you like to talk about you know. I'm not sure what else you would mean by this - or if I have an equivalent pet peeve on right-of-centre issues but maybe you can think of one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bush_cheney2004 Posted May 17, 2010 Report Share Posted May 17, 2010 Why is it important ? I think that it's interesting to watch the acceptance of this custom roll out and to watch barriers fall. Also, I do support it so it's gratifying for me to see it adopted. The point was that you are purposely ignoring newly erected (and popular) legal barriers to recognition of same gender (not gay) marriages. How do you explain this dichotomy? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Argus Posted May 17, 2010 Report Share Posted May 17, 2010 this is natural social progress, when I was a kid the entire country was much further to the right than we are now (yesteryears liberals are todays conservatives and todays liberals were yester days NDP)and by the time my kids are my age the country will be much more tolerant and further to the the left than we are today... While Europe is considerably farther to the Left than we are I don't consider them to be AS tolerant as us, never mind more tolerant. In fact, from all I've seen, the further to the Left you are the LESS tolerant you are. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Hardner Posted May 17, 2010 Author Report Share Posted May 17, 2010 The point was that you are purposely ignoring newly erected (and popular) legal barriers to recognition of same gender (not gay) marriages. How do you explain this dichotomy? I don't think I"m ignoring anything. Are you talking about this ?: The US federal Defense of Marriage Act remains on the books, as do many state laws defining marriage between a "man and a woman". It's as if you (and others) are seeking vindication for a civil rights issue now settled law in Canada and a handful of other nations. I guess I don't know how that relates to the point expressed in the title of this thread and the OP. Yes, there are statutes against same-sex marriage - I'm aware of that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bush_cheney2004 Posted May 17, 2010 Report Share Posted May 17, 2010 I don't think I"m ignoring anything. Are you talking about this ?: So does "popular" only apply when the tide of opinion (or legislation / court rulings) favor your view(s)? I guess I don't know how that relates to the point expressed in the title of this thread and the OP. Yes, there are statutes against same-sex marriage - I'm aware of that. Yes...you are left with the challenge of reconciling "Opponents Inch Closer to Death" and established federal/state laws. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Hardner Posted May 17, 2010 Author Report Share Posted May 17, 2010 So does "popular" only apply when the tide of opinion (or legislation / court rulings) favor your view(s)? No. Why do you think that ? There's "popular" and there's "right" - those are different qualities. Yes...you are left with the challenge of reconciling "Opponents Inch Closer to Death" and established federal/state laws. The graph provides the evidence, I think. As to why those laws exist, then the answer is that there are enough opponents to make those laws happen in some jurisdictions. But the smart money is on 'change'. Most of this marriage scaremongering happened between 2004-2006 if this map is accurate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bush_cheney2004 Posted May 17, 2010 Report Share Posted May 17, 2010 (edited) Most of this marriage scaremongering happened between 2004-2006 if this map is accurate. As usual...you have it wrong. DOMA was a 90's joint...and please note it has nothing to do with your obsession with "gay": Defense of Marriage Act is the short title of a federal law of the United States passed on September 21, 1996 as Public Law No. 104-199, 110 Stat. 2419. Its provisions are codified at 1 U.S.C. § 7 and 28 U.S.C. § 1738C. The law, also known as DOMA, has two effects: - No state (or other political subdivision within the United States) needs to treat a relationship between persons of the same sex as a marriage, even if the relationship is considered a marriage in another state. - The federal government defines marriage as a legal union exclusively between one man and one woman. Edited May 17, 2010 by bush_cheney2004 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Hardner Posted May 17, 2010 Author Report Share Posted May 17, 2010 As usual...you have it wrong. DOMA was a 90's joint...and please note it has nothing to do with your obsession with "gay": Wow. Then it's even older than I thought. Posting on a topic doesn't make one obsessed with it. View how many threads I have started on this topic and you'll see I'm no Mr. Canada. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oleg Bach Posted May 17, 2010 Report Share Posted May 17, 2010 People who can not get along normally with people get along great with bird brained dogs - in fact they give dogs more respect that old human beings and chidren - those that can not get along with the opposite sex - seem to like gay marriage. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oleg Bach Posted May 17, 2010 Report Share Posted May 17, 2010 Being empathetic and sympathetic to gays is not a bad thing...If the gays and lesbians want to say - hey look at me - I am married just like you and am as relevant as you - so be it if they want to believe that - frankly I don't believe in marriage PERIOD! No state or church has the power right or authority over my body and mind - they have no God given right to dictate on my breeding function or choice of legitiamate companion. THE state and church have no right to licence me or anyone else into a supposed legitimate partnership - I like the old Christian quote "They will not be given or taken in marriage..for they will be like the angels" - Gays and lesbians want to belong to mainstream society - but....as they enter into it through the social institution of marriage - THEY ARE ACTUALLY GIVING UP THEIR RIGHTS AND FREEDOMS. THE STATE WILL NOW CONTROL THEM. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oleg Bach Posted May 17, 2010 Report Share Posted May 17, 2010 I guess they want to be OWNED by society and it's instituted powers _ I don't - my advise to gays and lesbians is maintain your privacy and do as you wish and forget the state - THEY ARE NOT YOUR FRIENDS. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oleg Bach Posted May 17, 2010 Report Share Posted May 17, 2010 ALSO: Those who push for gay marriage are the same ones that push for more state control of ALL individuals - it is much like getting ALL of the herd subjugated and moved into a state of compliant surrender. AT there core and the base of this concept of taking marriage and spreading wide it's definition - is domination - those who lead this thing along want power over everybody - Give to the state what belongs to the state and render onto God what is God's - seeing everything belongs to God - give the state what it rightfully deserves -------------NOTHING! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oleg Bach Posted May 17, 2010 Report Share Posted May 17, 2010 END OF RANT. To be forth right - we should be moving towards destroying the state and churched sanctioned control over the coupling of human beings - Marriage has now in general desloved into an industry that is based on it failing. Half of the homeless men that I have spoken to have been put through the meat grinder that is the devorce and spousal support courts..courts that feed upon the population to maintain themselves. Most of the people who enter marriage end up in a worse state of affairs than they were in as single independent people - lawyers are parasites - family law judges destroy families instead of enhancing the true spirt of the family service act - they destroy families and buy a second Mercedes.. If you are a proponent or opponent of Gay Marriage then you part of the problem and a henchmen that serves those that do not serve us - a fool. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Hardner Posted May 17, 2010 Author Report Share Posted May 17, 2010 To be forth right - ... Fourth, right ? That was your FOURTH post in a row ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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