Mosque going up in NYC building

[msj]

If you don't treat me like the rest of the posters in this thread did, then I won't treat you like I treated them. So if I was unjustified in my attitude, I apologize.

What a load of bull.

[naomiglover]

Poor American Woman.

Everyone is on her case for supporting those who do not want to build a mosque based on their bigoted views of Muslims, but, uhm, she's not really supporting bigotry. It's all empathy.

I think Abe Foxman, from Anti Defamation League, has summarized American Woman's position well, in a recent New York Times article:

When the Anti-Defamation League (ADL) announced its opposition to the so-called “Ground Zero Mosque” last week, Director Abraham Foxman said that “Building an Islamic Center in the shadow of the World Trade Center will cause some victims more pain – unnecessarily – and that is not right.”

In an interview with The New York Times, he acknowledged that such a position might seem to run counter to his group’s stated goal of combating bigotry. “Survivors of the Holocaust,” he retorted, “are entitled to feelings that are irrational.”

In its coverage of the controversy, the Times offered a bold and perhaps somewhat unsurprising prediction. “The unexpected move” by the “influential Jewish organization,” wrote Michael Barbaro, “could well be a turning point in the battle,” causing public sentiment to turn decisively against the project.

Surprising backlash

By the end of the day, however, something remarkable had happened. The venerable ADL – with its 97-year record of “defend[ing] democratic ideals and protect[ing] civil rights” – found itself under siege, attacked by progressives and establishment figures alike.

Nobel laureate Paul Krugman called the statement “shocking,” “shameful – and stupid.” By the ADL’s reasoning, he argued, Jews shouldn’t write for national publications and shouldn’t serve on the Supreme Court because this might be painful for some people.

Cynthia Tucker of the Atlanta Journal-Constitution assailed the group for making common cause with “bigots and demagogues.”

“Scary Arabs ... want to kill you, all of you, because that is their nature,” blogged Alex Pareene at Salon sarcastically.

Contrary to Mr. Foxman’s remarks, it is not “survivors of the Holocaust” who are raving mad about the “Ground Zero mosque.” Nor, for the most part, is it the families of the Sept. 11 victims.

The entire controversy has in large part been fabricated and perpetuated by Islamophobic extremists who make money by fomenting suspicion and intolerance toward the “other.”

CSM

[Shady]

I made the statement because many have that view.

Ah, the old "many people say" generic comment. Who's many people? Nobody that's posted in this thread. Take that garbage somewhere else.

/facepalm

You should have facepalmed yourself for your original statement. It has nothing to do with the objections regarding the current situation. So far, you've erected quite the strawman army in just a few short posts!

Don't treat me like you did the rest of the posters in this thread.

Then don't resort to the ridiculous "if you don't like this mosque, you hate muslims" bullcrap.

[msj]

Poor American Woman.

Everyone is on her case for supporting those who do not want to build a mosque based on their bigoted views of Muslims, but, uhm, she's not really supporting bigotry. It's all empathy.

I think Abe Foxman, from Anti Defamation League, has summarized American Woman's position well, in a recent New York Times article:

When the Anti-Defamation League (ADL) announced its opposition to the so-called “Ground Zero Mosque” last week, Director Abraham Foxman said that “Building an Islamic Center in the shadow of the World Trade Center will cause some victims more pain – unnecessarily – and that is not right.”

In an interview with The New York Times, he acknowledged that such a position might seem to run counter to his group’s stated goal of combating bigotry. “Survivors of the Holocaust,” he retorted, “are entitled to feelings that are irrational.”

In its coverage of the controversy, the Times offered a bold and perhaps somewhat unsurprising prediction. “The unexpected move” by the “influential Jewish organization,” wrote Michael Barbaro, “could well be a turning point in the battle,” causing public sentiment to turn decisively against the project.

Surprising backlash

By the end of the day, however, something remarkable had happened. The venerable ADL – with its 97-year record of “defend[ing] democratic ideals and protect[ing] civil rights” – found itself under siege, attacked by progressives and establishment figures alike.

Nobel laureate Paul Krugman called the statement “shocking,” “shameful – and stupid.” By the ADL’s reasoning, he argued, Jews shouldn’t write for national publications and shouldn’t serve on the Supreme Court because this might be painful for some people.

Cynthia Tucker of the Atlanta Journal-Constitution assailed the group for making common cause with “bigots and demagogues.”

“Scary Arabs ... want to kill you, all of you, because that is their nature,” blogged Alex Pareene at Salon sarcastically.

Contrary to Mr. Foxman’s remarks, it is not “survivors of the Holocaust” who are raving mad about the “Ground Zero mosque.” Nor, for the most part, is it the families of the Sept. 11 victims.

The entire controversy has in large part been fabricated and perpetuated by Islamophobic extremists who make money by fomenting suspicion and intolerance toward the “other.”

CSM

I think this has already been addressed on page 57 or page 58 which is why I linked to Paul Krugman's response to the ADL.

Others seem to disagree with Krugman although no one really seemed to want to specifically address his argument.

Bonham, to his credit, tried but fluffed it off.

And then there's all the filler from all of us - getting off track, thinking someone else thought this when they really thought that etc....

[dre]

This is one of the dumbest threads ever on MLW.

At this point both sides in the argument are fully fortified, and we are just repeating the exact same arguments we were on page fuckin 10. Its page 85 now.

[dre]

I think this has already been addressed on page 57 or page 58 which is why I linked to Paul Krugman's response to the ADL.

Others seem to disagree with Krugman although no one really seemed to want to specifically address his argument.

Bonham, to his credit, tried but fluffed it off.

And then there's all the filler from all of us - getting off track, thinking someone else thought this when they really thought that etc....

And then there's all the filler from all of us - getting off track

Yup. Its like Chinese dogfood... too much malemine and not enough delicious meaty chunks.

[Shady]

Poor American Woman.

Everyone is on her case for supporting those who do not want to build a mosque

Actually, only a handful of useful idiots are on her case. You're one of them.

I don't put much weight into what the ADL says. Uusally you don't either. It's funny that you're now using them as a source.

However, I put much more weight on moderate muslims who know better than you.

Raheel Raza and Tarek Fatah:

New York currently boasts at least 30 mosques so it's not as if there is pressing need to find space for worshippers. The fact we Muslims know the idea behind the Ground Zero mosque is meant to be a deliberate provocation to thumb our noses at the infidel. The proposal has been made in bad faith and in Islamic parlance, such an act is referred to as "Fitna," meaning "mischief-making" that is clearly forbidden in the Koran.

Link

Center for Islamic Pluralism:

"Imam Feisal Abdul Rauf bills his plan for an Islamic cultural center near Ground Zero -- which the city's Landmarks Preservation Commission is expected to vote on tonight -- as a platform for interfaith cooperation, dialogue and understanding.

But the plan is obviously provocative and confrontational -- and it's hard to imagine that Rauf didn't know that long before it became public.

That's one big reason why American Muslims, like other Americans, should reject the project -- particularly if they really want to adhere to traditional Islamic principles. I say that as a Muslim convert since 1997.

Traditional, moderate Islam teaches Muslims living in non-Muslim-majority societies to obey the laws and customs of the country in which they reside. They must avoid conflict with their non-Muslim neighbors whenever possible.

Yet it was no secret that a major Islamic construction project near Ground Zero would offend many New Yorkers; indeed, American Muslims themselves were uneasy about the idea from the beginning. Rauf, while he preaches peace, chose the path of controversy and provocation by originating this mosque project."

Link

American Islamic Forum for Democracy:

"Ground zero shouldn’t be about promoting Islam. It’s the place where war was declared on us as Americans. To use that space for Muslim outreach is the worst form of misjudgment."

Link

Stop being useful idiots people. You're being played.

[Shady]

At this point both sides in the argument are fully fortified, and we are just repeating the exact same arguments we were on page fuckin 10. Its page 85 now.

That's because you people continue to peddle the "if you don't like this mosque being built, you hate muslims" bullcrap, over, and over, and over.

[dre]

That's because you people continue to peddle the "if you don't like this mosque being built, you hate muslims" bullcrap, over, and over, and over.

No its because both sides are just repeating the same circular arguments over and over again.

[Guest American Woman]

This is a pretty amazing letter, that's going to be delivered tomorrow (emphasis all mine):

Muslim Canadian Congress urges New York’s Ground-Zero Mosque Imam to abandon project

TORONTO – The Muslim Canadian Congress (MCC) is urging the Cordoba House Initiative to abandon its proposed Ground-Zero Mosque in New York in the face of outrage expressed by large segments of the American population calling the proposal an act of 'fitna' or mischief.

In a letter to Imam Faisal Rauf that will be delivered on Tuesday, August 10 by MCC’s board member Raheel Raza, the MCC says, “Many Muslims suspect that the idea behind the Ground Zero mosque is meant to be a deliberate provocation, to thumb our noses at the 'infidel.' We believe the proposal has been made in bad faith and, in Islamic parlance, is creating 'fitna,' meaning 'mischief-making,' an act clearly forbidden in the Qur’an.”

“The Qur'an commands us Muslims to, 'Be considerate when you debate with the People of the Book' -- i.e., Jews and Christians [chapter 29, verse 46]. Building an exclusive place of worship for Muslims at the place where Muslims killed thousands of New Yorkers, is not being considerate or sensitive, it is undoubtedly an act of “fitna,” the letter added.

There's more to the letter, available at the link I provided. It's well worth the read.

Edited August 9, 2010 by American Woman

[Shady]

This is a pretty amazing letter, that's going to be delivered tomorrow (emphasis all mine):

The letter you cite is obviously from groups and individuals who hate muslims, and are most likely, rabid racists, and Islamophobes.

[Guest American Woman]

The letter you cite is obviously from groups and individuals who hate muslims, and are most likely, rabid racists, and Islamophobes.

Obviously.

[dre]

So recap...

1. AW starts a post about the community center on a Canadian forum.

2. Then she whines that Canadians should mind their own business.

3. Then she cites the opinions of Canadians to back up her position.

[DogOnPorch]

An American forum with a Canadian name actually.

[Guest American Woman]

An American forum with a Canadian name actually.

Yep. And furthermore, I never "whined that Canadians should mind their own business."

[DogOnPorch]

Obviously.

Yes...read that earlier. I wonder if it'll have any effect. Rauf seems poised to do this thang.

[DogOnPorch]

Yep. And furthermore, I never "whined that Canadians should mind their own business."

Everyone's virtual chair sits in Texas if I recall. Best bring yer 6 shooters, dre.

Edited August 9, 2010 by DogOnPorch

[Guest American Woman]

Yes...read that earlier. I wonder if it'll have any effect. Rauf seems poised to do this thang.

I wonder if it'll have any effect, too. If anything, it must make him realize that he's going to be faced with public opposition even within the Muslim community, and that this project will not be seen strictly in the light he's hoping it will. In that light, I hope this letter gets attention in the American media.

[Smallc]

An American forum with a Canadian name actually.

Well, it's actually a Canadian forum, it's simply hosted by servers in the US.

[DogOnPorch]

Well, it's actually a Canadian forum, it's simply hosted by servers in the US.

Funny...that's not how BC-2004 views it...lol.

[dre]

Yep. And furthermore, I never "whined that Canadians should mind their own business."

Yeah you were.

so it would be nice if some people focused more on their own nation and less on others', eh?

That was followed up by another guy arguing your side here...

I just love a bunch of Canucks telling Americans how they should feel about a crime that was committed against them. Let them sort it out by themselves.

[dre]

Funny...that's not how BC-2004 views it...lol.

Heres what the owners of the site put in the "About" tab. BTW, where content is hosted has literally nothing to do with anything. It could hosted in Morrocco and still be a Canadian site.

Maple Leaf Web is a non-profit, non-partisan Canadian political education web-site that aims to provide educators, students and the attentive public with a credible source for political education and information.

Located at the University of Lethbridge, in Lethbridge, Alberta (Canada), Maple Leaf Web publishes original articles and features on Canadian political events and institutions and provides important links to a wide range of external resources.

Edited August 9, 2010 by dre

[DogOnPorch]

Splittin' hares as BB would say.

[Smallc]

Funny...that's not how BC-2004 views it...lol.

Well, I don't read his views anymore, and I haven't for a long time.

[bush_cheney2004]

Well, I don't read his views anymore, and I haven't for a long time.

Every American member could leave this forum for good and America would still remain...in spades.