Mosque going up in NYC building

[bloodyminded]

So are you saying Islam is the equivalent of a company or individuals? Because if you are, I don't understand how one can be "bigoted" towards them, nor do I understand how one is expected to be tolerant of them, much less tolerant of everything they do. I've never heard anyone criticized for their views regarding GM, for example, nor have I heard the expectation of tolerance for all that GM does.

So no; it's not a critique of capitalism itself. It's very specifically a critique of Muslims building in the ruins of 9-11, a disaster brought about by other Muslims.

And Western capitalists build in the ruins of developing nations, ruins brought about by the Western capitalists themselves.

[Guest American Woman]

And Western capitalists build in the ruins of developing nations, ruins brought about by the Western capitalists themselves.

No, they haven't. A group of western capitalists have never targeted civilians, saying it was their obligation to do so, purposely killed thousands, continued to target said civilians and recruit new members from their corporation to help in their cause, as other employees of their corporation built a branch in the ruins, two blocks away from a memorial of those killed.

[bloodyminded]

No, they haven't. A group of western capitalists have never targeted civilians, saying it was their obligation to do so, purposely killed thousands, continued to target said civilians and recruit new members from their corporation to help in their cause, as other employees of their corporation built a branch in the ruins, two blocks away from a memorial of those killed.

Aside from the recruitment--which is natural and systemic--and the literality of your last clause (which misses my point in its literalist fetish)...yes, certainly this is the case.

[Guest American Woman]

Aside from the recruitment--which is natural and systemic--and the literality of your last clause (which misses my point in its literalist fetish)...yes, certainly this is the case.

So give me one example. Give me one example of a corporation that has targeted and killed civilians, where other employees have then gone in and built a branch.

I don't want an example of a country's government having been at war and corporations going in and building along with the rest of the rebuilding. All nations have done that. I want an example that is a relevant comparison to this issue. I gave a 'what if' scenario that would be comparable, and no one has attempted to respond to it. No one has answered the question.

I'll raise it again now:

.....if a group of American vigilantes were to go to Iraq or Afghanistan, kill hundreds of Iraqis or Afghans, along with a hand full of Americans who happened to be working in the area, and a memorial was constructed in the middle of the destruction, I would think it very insensitive if the U.S. government moved into one of the buildings that was destroyed and created an embassy there. As an American, I would oppose it out of empathy to the Iraqis and Afghans. It wouldn't mean I was assuming guilt and I wouldn't think Iraqis or Afghans who lost loved ones and were upset about it were bigoted towards Americans. I would totally understand where they are coming from. Wouldn't you?

Edited May 24, 2010 by American Woman

[bloodyminded]

So give me one example. Give me one example of a corporation that has targeted and killed civilians, where other employees have then gone in and built a branch.

I don't want an example of a country's government having been at war and corporations going in and building along with the rest of the rebuilding. All nations have done that. I want an example that is a relevant comparison to this issue. I gave a 'what if' scenario that would be comparable, and no one has attempted to respond to it. No one has answered the question.

It has been answered ad nauseum in a million debates and discussions, and is routinely ignored.

Before Suharto murdered hundreds of thousands of "communists" (ie everyone and anyone who got in the way), there were high-level, pro-Suharto meetings of government AND business interests, discussing how best to divy up the material prizes once the sanctioned mass murder had occurred.

Your insistence on a separation between government and Business is not accurate. They are often on the same side.

Hell, even the most distinguished and award-winning and widely-read commentators, in the mainstream media, will be perfectly clear about such matters (though they retain sufficient doublethink to forget their own words at opportune moments).

Here's Thomas Friedman--the mainstream, establishment-liberal, prize-winning journalist in America's most influential "paper of record"--and we should note he's saying all this with open approval, not criticism:

The hidden hand of the market will never work without a hidden fist. McDonald's cannot flourish without McDonnell Douglas... And the hidden fist that keeps the world safe for Silicon Valley's technologies to flourish is called the U.S. Army, Air Force, Navy and Marine Corps."

So I'm not exactly perpetrating some radical notion: on the contrary, I'm flatly agreeing with mainstream foreign policy commentators and economists...though I disagree with their adoration and approval of such goings-on.

I'll raise it again now:

.....if a group of American vigilantes were to go to Iraq or Afghanistan, kill hundreds of Iraqis or Afghans, along with a hand full of Americans who happened to be working in the area, and a memorial was constructed in the middle of the destruction, I would think it very insensitive if the U.S. government moved into one of the buildings that was destroyed and created an embassy there. As an American, I would oppose it out of empathy to the Iraqis and Afghans. It wouldn't mean I was assuming guilt and I wouldn't think Iraqis or Afghans who lost loved ones and were upset about it were bigoted towards Americans. I would totally understand where they are coming from. Wouldn't you?

Are you kidding? The US has built a massive embassy, a city-within-a-city, in Iraq. All thanks to widespread death and destruction. And yes, of course large corporations, with an extremely close working relationship to foreign policy officials, were openly supportive of violence for the sake of profit. That's as normal as the air we breathe.

Edited May 24, 2010 by bloodyminded

[GostHacked]

I don't want an example of a country's government having been at war and corporations going in and building along with the rest of the rebuilding. All nations have done that. I want an example that is a relevant comparison to this issue. I gave a 'what if' scenario that would be comparable, and no one has attempted to respond to it. No one has answered the question.

.....if a group of American vigilantes were to go to Iraq or Afghanistan, kill hundreds of Iraqis or Afghans, along with a hand full of Americans who happened to be working in the area, and a memorial was constructed in the middle of the destruction, I would think it very insensitive if the U.S. government moved into one of the buildings that was destroyed and created an embassy there. As an American, I would oppose it out of empathy to the Iraqis and Afghans. It wouldn't mean I was assuming guilt and I wouldn't think Iraqis or Afghans who lost loved ones and were upset about it were bigoted towards Americans. I would totally understand where they are coming from. Wouldn't you?

I guess it depends on who you see as vigilantes, but after the invasion of Iraq we have this.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/12319798/

“The presence of a massive U.S. embassy — by far the largest in the world — co-located in the Green Zone with the Iraqi government is seen by Iraqis as an indication of who actually exercises power in their country,” the International Crisis Group, a European-based research group, said in one of its periodic reports on Iraq.

I know you don't want an example based on military intervention. And I think a comparison to a corporation killing people is not the right angle of approach either. Unless that corporation (Blackwater) is engaged in this type of behavior.

IN the end, we'd have to base/compare it on religious motivations and other religious movements that end up killing people. But I think there would be plenty of examples of what AW is talking about to compare religions making a monument near a site of a massacre of some kind.

[bloodyminded]

I guess it depends on who you see as vigilantes, but after the invasion of Iraq we have this.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/12319798/

I know you don't want an example based on military intervention. And I think a comparison to a corporation killing people is not the right angle of approach either. Unless that corporation (Blackwater) is engaged in this type of behavior.

Actually, Blackwater (now "Xe," thanks to PR fiascos) is a pitch-perfect example. Just so.

[GostHacked]

Actually, Blackwater (now "Xe," thanks to PR fiascos) is a pitch-perfect example. Just so.

Ahh Xe, that had been bothering me all day, I knew they changed their name and mostly due to the negative press they got from their actions in Iraq.

[Guest American Woman]

I guess it depends on who you see as vigilantes, but after the invasion of Iraq we have this.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/12319798/

Quote: “The presence of a massive U.S. embassy — by far the largest in the world — co-located in the Green Zone with the Iraqi government is seen by Iraqis as an indication of who actually exercises power in their country,” the International Crisis Group, a European-based research group, said in one of its periodic reports on Iraq.

Seems to me as if you're proving my point with that example, as the Iraqi people, according to your quote, resent the building of the embassy.

It sounds as if you empathize with the Iraqis, too, and don't think the U.S. should have built it, in spite of the fact that not all U.S. government workers supported the war, and some could think the embassy will help promote better feelings between Iraq and the U.S.

And in case it needs to be pointed out, I empathize with the Iraqis, same as I think Muslims should empathize with those whose loved ones were killed on 9-11.

Edited May 24, 2010 by American Woman

[DogOnPorch]

AW: It sounds as if you empathize with the Iraqis, too, and don't think the U.S. should have built it, in spite of the fact that not all U.S. government workers supported the war, and some could think the embassy will help promote better feelings between Iraq and the U.S.

Agreement. It is exactly the empathy which you mentioned earlier.

[GostHacked]

Seems to me as if you're proving my point with that example, as the Iraqi people, according to your quote, resent the building of the embassy.

But it's being built anyways, regardless of the Iraqi people disagreeing with it or protesting against it. So we are proving both points to a degree. And from the Iraqi's point of view, the US runs the country of Iraq and not Iraq itself. These are two difference scenarios, but the end result is that a facility will go up despite the protests against it.

It sounds as if you empathize with the Iraqis, too, and don't think the U.S. should have built it, in spite of the fact that not all U.S. government workers supported the war, and some could think the embassy will help promote better feelings between Iraq and the U.S.

I did not support the invasion of Iraq in 2003. They were simply not a threat, the lack of evidence to support them being a threat was never found. The biggest US embassy on the planet is now in Iraq.

And in case it needs to be pointed out, I empathize with the Iraqis, same as I think Muslims should empathize with those whose loved ones were killed on 9-11.

If you want to turn it around though and play the part of an Iraqi citizen after the invasion and the embassy being built, you would protest saying the US should empathize with the people of Iraq and not build the embassy as big or even where it stands right now.

There was no empathizing with the Iraqi people on this matter. The embassy was built. The mosque will be built as well, despite your protests.

But in the end I am not sure this is a fair comparison, because it is more about religion than the war on terror, or clash of civilizations as Bush Jr calls it.

[WIP]

Nicely put. Thank you WIP.

The silence roared

Thanks. Just trying to turn the temperature down a little.

I suspect that many of those who are opposing the mosque would object to it under any circumstances, not just because it's two blocks away from WTC. Here's an interesting little story from Wisconsin, where there is vocal opposition to the permit approval to build a mosque, which has elicited comments like:

"Welcoming a mosque to my hometown, while our nation is at war with Islamic Fascists is like welcoming the Chapter of Hitler Youth to organize here in the states while our soldiers were giving their lives to end the Nazi Regime in Europe,"

http://www.thenorthwestern.com/article/20100509/OSH0602/5090316/Commentary-Objections-to-Sheboygan-mosque-is-extreme-position

[WIP]

Seems to me as if you're proving my point with that example, as the Iraqi people, according to your quote, resent the building of the embassy.

It sounds as if you empathize with the Iraqis, too, and don't think the U.S. should have built it, in spite of the fact that not all U.S. government workers supported the war, and some could think the embassy will help promote better feelings between Iraq and the U.S.

Big difference between the Green Zone and the mosque proposed in New York. The Green Zone was imposed and intended as a base of continued U.S. military control, whatever an elected Iraqi government decides to do. The mosque does not have any effect on U.S. sovereignty.

And in case it needs to be pointed out, I empathize with the Iraqis, same as I think Muslims should empathize with those whose loved ones were killed on 9-11.

Most Americans (or Canadians) don't seem to feel a lot of empathy for the hundreds of thousands killed and millions displaced in Iraq, so likewise 9/11 is not going to be one of their big concerns. I recall that there was a march in Tehran in the immediate days after 9/11, that expressed sympathy for America...but all that has changed over the last nine years. Today, the regime change advocates there don't have a lot of good things to say about the USA.

[DogOnPorch]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MXPXk8InRBU

[DogOnPorch]

Where did the $100,000,000 for the mosque come from?

[Sir Bandelot]

They have no argument, so they resort to name calling.

You were the first to do that actually, and I can go back in the thread and show precisely where you did it. As you often do in other threads as well. You are to blame for taking the thread down to that level.

[Sir Bandelot]

NYC community board OKs ground zero mosque plans

NEW YORK - After hours of contentious public comment, a New York City community board voted late Tuesday to support a plan to build a mosque and cultural center near ground zero.

"It's a seed of peace," board member Rob Townley said. "We believe that this is a significant step in the Muslim community to counteract the hate and fanaticism in the minority of the community."

Imam Feisal Abdul Rauf, executive director of the Cordoba Initiative, one of the project's sponsors, said he understood the pain that people have about 9/11. But he said his community and congregation were among those that died in the attacks. "We have condemned the terror of 9/11," he said.

The NYC community board has got it right. It's time to let the wounds heal.

Edited May 26, 2010 by Sir Bandelot

[Sir Bandelot]

Conservative tea party activist Mark Williams has called the proposed center a monument to the terror attacks.

Stringer has been the target of disparaging remarks by Williams for supporting the plans and has defended his position and denounced offensive speech directed at him or at Muslims.

Bruce Wallace, who lost a nephew on 9/11, said the center can change the misperceptions about Islam.

"The moderate Muslim voice has been squashed in America," he said. "Here is a chance to allow moderate Muslims to teach people that not all Muslims are terrorists."

There's your Tea Party for ya. Acting on the people's emotions, divisive. Just more of the same

[GostHacked]

Where did the $100,000,000 for the mosque come from?

Donations, the same methods Christianity, Catholicism, Judaism, ect ect ect ect. all get their funding from.

Donations can come from individuals, like you and me, or members of government. It can come from corporations or even a country!!!!

[DogOnPorch]

Donations, the same methods Christianity, Catholicism, Judaism, ect ect ect ect. all get their funding from.

Donations can come from individuals, like you and me, or members of government. It can come from corporations or even a country!!!!

Yes...like Saudi Arabia. If they're paying for it, that would suck...etc. I doubt the so called Muslims of Manhattan coughed-up that much dough.

[sharkman]

Where did the $100,000,000 for the mosque come from?

That's a very good question. That kind of money only comes from very wealthy donors, and it suggests an agenda.

[waldo]

That's a very good question. That kind of money only comes from very wealthy donors, and it suggests an agenda.

nice teaser! Is there... more? Do you have... more? Surely, you can't leave it at that.

[Guest American Woman]

Donations, the same methods Christianity, Catholicism, Judaism, ect ect ect ect. all get their funding from.

Donations can come from individuals, like you and me, or members of government. It can come from corporations or even a country!!!!

It can come from organizations, too, which I think was sort of what's making it questionable; not to mention donations could come from wealthy Muslims who are part of the Jihad. If you watched the clip, the Iman doesn't really have a direct answer; and the NYC fireman certainly was respectful, and obviously only questioned the location/circumstances of this Mosque. I don't understand why some have the need to paint those who question this specific situation as being against all Mosques and biased against Muslims. People say what they truly think, and others refuse to accept it, and insist on making it into something it's not. Makes no sense at all.

[waldo]

People say what they truly think, and others refuse to accept it, and insist on making it into something it's not. Makes no sense at all.

since, apparently, the existing building on the location in question has existed as a mosque... even before 9/11, there appear some who choose to question the fervent zeal of opposition to a, wait for it... wait for it... proposed community center, one being made analogous to an adjacent YMCA, to an adjacent Jewish community center. A proposal for a building open to all members of the community; one that includes a swimming pool, a basketball court, a performing arts center, a cultural center... and a mosque. What was that you were saying about, "making it into something it's not?"

[sharkman]

"

Apparently you can't read. Have another go at AW's comment paying special attention to the part where she describes making it into something it's not.