Would Any Other President Have Ever Said This?

[bush_cheney2004]

It seems to me based on the whole comment, he was responding to some kind of criticism from the left that the US has to be the world police. "Like it or not, that's the job we have to do". In other words, US will continue invading countries that are non compliant with the empire, or wherever it's interests are served. Like it or not, the wars will continue.

Well, just what is it you think a global superpower does....and how it got that way?

[Jack Weber]

Well, just what is it you think a global superpower does....and how it got that way?

How it got that way is quite simple...North America was never attacked during the Second World War.The US never had to totally rebuild lie Europe did.The Soviet Union failed because of it's closed economy.Basically,The United States came out of WW2 and the Cold War relatively unscathed.

To your other post that states a phrase at the end of it...

" the notion that US global dominance is inherently a good thing because it restrains tyrants,and promotes human rights and democracy."....Well,let's just say that's not the most historically accurate statement ever written...

Edited April 16, 2010 by Jack Weber

[Sir Bandelot]

Well, just what is it you think a global superpower does....and how it got that way?

They like to yap a lot?

[bush_cheney2004]

How it got that way is quite simple...North America was never attacked during the Second World War.The US never had to totally rebuild lie Europe did.The Soviet Union failed because of it's closed economy.Basically,The United States came out of WW2 and the Cold War relatively unscathed.

Technically not true...North America was attacked by Japan and Germany, just not very successfully. The USA's Marshall Plan paid to rebuild Europe as a bullwork against the Soviet Union.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attacks_on_North_America_during_World_War_II

Japan captured islands in the Aleutians as well.

" the notion that US global dominance is inherently a good thing because it restrains tyrants,and promotes human rights and democracy."....Well,let's just say that's not the most historically accurate statement ever written...

I didn't write it....but it does correctly characterize the notion of American "exceptionalism". The US promotes its own interests, which may or may not include such things. The Soviets were less impressive in that regard, and China's chance will have to wait.

Edited April 16, 2010 by bush_cheney2004

[Jack Weber]

Technically not true...North America was attacked by Japan and Germany, just not very successfully. The USA's Marshall Plan paid to rebuild Europe as a bullwork against the Soviet Union.

I didn't write it....but it does correctly characterize the notion of American "exceptionalism". The US promotes its own interests, which may or may not include such things. The Soviets were less impressive in that regard, and China's chance will have to wait.

You'll have to prove to me where mainland North America was attacked by both the NAZI's AND theEmpire of Japan...I'm sorry,but Hawaii is NOT the mainland and the attack did nothing to stop the US economy as no major economic or industrial centre in the US was attacked.It just did'nt happen...The economic and industrial infrastructure remained intact.This was obviously not he case in Europe!

I know about the Marshall Plan.Sadly a deal with the devil had to be made to get rid of NAZIsm.

As far as your other comment goes about American exceptionalism...While the US itself is an admirable country that has some things that we all can look to aspire to,I would not say US foreign policy has ever been about "American Exceptionalism".I agree that the US does promote it's own self interests internayionally,but that rarely,if ever, has anything to do with democracy and freedom.You may not like that,but history does'nt lie...

Sadly,the Chinese and the Indians are on the assendancy and the US is now in virtually irreversable decline...

Edited April 16, 2010 by Jack Weber

[Smallc]

Sadly,the Chinese and the Indians are on the assendancy and the US is now in virtually irreversable decline...

I'll be very disappointed if he doesn't deflect by talking about how Canada never had to worry about being as high as the US was, thus not having to worry about the decline.

[Bonam]

Sadly,the Chinese and the Indians are on the assendancy and the US is now in virtually irreversable decline...

Not really. The US is not in decline, it is simply growing more slowly than China and India. But why are China and India growing so quickly? Simple, because they are currently undergoing the process of applying technology to improve their economy, technology that was developed over a long time period by other nations that they can now apply over a shorter timescale.

As these nations catch up in the extent to which technology saturates their society, they will not be able to advance as quickly, and then their growth rate will be no faster than that of Western nations or other nations that are technologically saturated (i.e. Japan, South Korea, etc).

Of course, they may still end up ahead simply due to their much larger populations, but that does not mean that the US is in decline.

[Guest TrueMetis]

I'll be very disappointed if he doesn't deflect by talking about how Canada never had to worry about being as high as the US was, thus not having to worry about the decline.

Canada doesn't have to worry about decline, we have to much room to grow.

[bush_cheney2004]

You'll have to prove to me where mainland North America was attacked by both the NAZI's AND theEmpire of Japan...I'm sorry,but Hawaii is NOT the mainland and the attack did nothing to stop the US economy as no major economic or industrial centre in the US was attacked.It just did'nt happen...The economic and industrial infrastructure remained intact.This was obviously not he case in Europe!

Still...you are technically wrong....see my edited post with Wiki enumeration of attacks on North America.

I know about the Marshall Plan.Sadly a deal with the devil had to be made to get rid of NAZIsm.

Yet this deal help to cement America's role as global superpower.

As far as your other comment goes about American exceptionalism...While the US itself is an admirable country that has some things that we all can look to aspire to,I would not say US foreign policy has ever been about "American Exceptionalism".I agree that the US does promote it's own self interests internayionally,but that rarely,if ever, has anything to do with democracy and freedom.You may not like that,but history does'nt lie...

Quite to the contrary, I thoroughly enjoy that hegemonic reality. It's the other rubes who think in terms of "Founding Fathers" and "democracy" that I laugh at.

Sadly,the Chinese and the Indians are on the assendancy and the US is now in virtually irreversable decline...

Perhaps...just like your long lost empire. God Save the Queen..and all that jazz.

[Smallc]

Perhaps...just like your long lost empire. God Save the Queen..and all that jazz.

Ah, I guess that'll have to do. It's almost as good.

[bush_cheney2004]

I'll be very disappointed if he doesn't deflect by talking about how Canada never had to worry about being as high as the US was, thus not having to worry about the decline.

....and you'd be wrong...your empire is kaput.

[Smallc]

....and you'd be wrong...your empire is kaput.

I had my own empire? Cool!

[bush_cheney2004]

I had my own empire? Cool!

I know....it is cool! Now we have it....you don't!

[Smallc]

I know....it is cool! Now we have it....you don't!

I actually never had my own empire...though it would be pretty cool. Then again, Canada never had an empire either. Great Britain did, and the place that would become Canada was part of it, but Canada...no.

[Jack Weber]

Still...you are technically wrong....see my edited post with Wiki enumeration of attacks on North America.

Yet this deal help to cement America's role as global superpower.

Quite to the contrary, I thoroughly enjoy that hegemonic reality. It's the other rubes who think in terms of "Founding Fathers" and "democracy" that I laugh at.

Perhaps...just like your long lost empire. God Save the Queen..and all that jazz.

I'll stand corrected on the actual physical attacks on mainland North America.I believe my contention that basically North America ended the war realtively unscathed remains intact...None of those things done by Japan or the NAZI's did anything to change things on this continent.None of the essential infrastructure that allowed the US to become the Superpower it is was damaged at all.They were essentially irrelevent!

As to your second statement...At least you admit that he US has propped up some fairly disgusting Fascist thugs going back to before the Second World War and that it has always been about empire building,just a more modern version of it.Most of your political persuasion bristle at that obvious fact!

I don't know what long lost empire of mine your referring to!I'm neither British,nor a fan of empire.I don't even know the words to God Save the Queen!Empires always ascend,stay on top for a while,then decline.I fear that's where the US is right now.I say fear because I would rather deal with the US than the coming cryptoFascist Chinese global dominance.

Edited April 16, 2010 by Jack Weber

[Guest TrueMetis]

I know....it is cool! Now we have it....you don't!

America has an empire? Wanna show me the map? Cause last time I checked your "empire" spanned a single country.

[bush_cheney2004]

America has an empire? Wanna show me the map? Cause last time I checked your "empire" spanned a single country.

It's a different kind of empire...you use it everyday from YouTube to weather satellites.

[Guest TrueMetis]

It's a different kind of empire...you use it everyday from YouTube to weather satellites.

So no America is not an empire, and last time I checked those things were controled by private citizens for the most part not the American government.

[bush_cheney2004]

I'll stand corrected on the actual physical attacks on mainland North America.I believe my contention that basically North America ended the war realtively unscathed remains intact...None of those things done by Japan or the NAZI's did anything to change things on this continent.None of the essential infrastructure that allowed the US to become the Superpower it is was damaged at all.They were essentially irrelevent!

No they were not irrelvant...the USA and Canada diverted valuable resources to coastal and air defense. An entire aircraft plant in southern California was disguised from the air. Citizens and resident aliens were interned.

As to your second statement...At least you admit that he US has propped up some fairly disgusting Fascist thugs going back to before the Second World War and that it has always been about empire building,just a more modern version of it.Most of your political persuasion bristle at that obvious fact!

Not sure what you mean by this. I have consistently maintained the factual exploits of American foreign policy since booting your throne squarely in the ass. I accept the US for what it is and what it has been, not the B.S. that some Canadians think America was suppose to be. The USA does not have to live up to their false expectations.

I don't know what long lost empire of mine your referring to!I'm neither British,nor a fan of empire.I don't even know the words to God Save the Queen!Empires always ascend,stay on top for a while,then decline.I fear that's where the US is right now.I say fear because I would rather deal with the US than the coming cryptoFascist Chinese global dominance.

Tis' better to have been a superpower and lost, than never to have been one at all. Your fears are of your own making.

[bush_cheney2004]

So no America is not an empire, and last time I checked those things were controled by private citizens for the most part not the American government.

America is one and the same...

We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to

ourselves and our Posterity

, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.

Edited April 16, 2010 by bush_cheney2004

[Jack Weber]

No they were not irrelvant...the USA and Canada diverted valuable resources to coastal and air defense. An entire aircraft plant in southern California was disguised from the air. Citizens and resident aliens were interned.

Not sure what you mean by this. I have consistently maintained the factual exploits of American foreign policy since booting your throne squarely in the ass. I accept the US for what it is and what it has been, not the B.S. that some Canadians think America was suppose to be. The USA does not have to live up to their false expectations.

Tis' better to have been a superpower and lost, than never to have been one at all. Your fears are of your own making.

They were ireelevent to the existing economic and industrial ifrstructure of both countries.None of that was affected by any of those "attacks".That was my point of irrelevent.

What I meant by my second point was that I applaud that you openly admit to being a fan of American foreign policy and it's support of many Fascist thugs to help itself.And that that foreign policy has almost never been about spreading democracy and freedom.Again,many of your political ilk blather ceaselessly about the Founding Fathers and phony baloney idealism,when it's always been about power consolidation.That's what empire is all about!No B.S. here!I have no false expectations about US foreign policy.I expect the United states to back the person,or groups,that best fit there ideological needs and let the chips fall where they may.Central and Sotuh America is a prime example of this throughout the 20th century.

Again...I have no idea why you think the British throne is my throne?

As to your last statement...You could'nt help yourself,could you?We get it,you like to flaunt your nations superiority on us poor ungrateful northern wimps...

Why do you have to do that?

I'm trying to have an intellectual converstion and you throw that stupid sh!t out...Seriously,what is your problem?

[Jack Weber]

America is one and the same...

We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to

ourselves and our Posterity

, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.

Edited April 16, 2010 by Jack Weber

[bush_cheney2004]

They were ireelevent to the existing economic and industrial ifrstructure of both countries.None of that was affected by any of those "attacks".That was my point of irrelevent.

Nope....I have personally visited the fortifications and gun placement ruins on the west coast. Huge investments were made for coastal defense. Near my home are the ruins of a WW2 gunpowder plant that was built far away from the coast because the threat was real....not irrelevant.

What I meant by my second point was that I applaud that you openly admit to being a fan of American foreign policy and it's support of many Fascist thugs to help itself.And that that foreign policy has almost never been about spreading democracy and freedom.Again,many of your political ilk blather ceaselessly about the Founding Fathers and phony baloney idealism,when it's always been about power consolidation.That's what empire is all about!No B.S. here!

I'm more than just a fan...I served in the military instruments of such policies. The United States is a corporation...always has been. It has worked out quite well by any measure.

I have no false expectations about US foreign policy.I expect the United states to back the person,or groups,that best fit there ideological needs and let the chips fall where they may.Central and Sotuh America is a prime example of this throughout the 20th century.

Correct...as does Canada.

Again...I have no idea why you think the British throne is my throne?

Because she says so.

As to your last statement...You could'nt help yourself,could you?We get it,you like to flaunt your nations superiority on us poor ungrateful northern wimps...

It's the least I can do in the face of smug "moral" superiority.

Why do you have to do that?

Because I want to be the Ugly American that you already hate. I want to be the foil that you need to define what it means to be Canadian.

I'm trying to have an intellectual converstion and you throw that stupid sh!t out...Seriously,what is your problem?

If you need a friend...get a dog.

Edited April 16, 2010 by bush_cheney2004

[Guest TrueMetis]

America is one and the same...

We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to

ourselves and our Posterity

, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.

You've failed miserably at it so far.

Nope....I have personally visited the fortifications and gun placement ruins on the west coast. Huge investments were made for coastal defense. Near my home are the ruins of a WW2 gunpowder plant that was built far away from the coast because the threat was real....not irrelevant.

Tottaly irrelvant. The Japanese knew they had no chance of attacking America itself their greatest hope was to control most of the pacific.

Though I quite enjoy watching you and your inferiority complex.

Edited April 16, 2010 by TrueMetis

[Jack Weber]

Nope....I have personally visited the fortifications and gun placement ruins on the west coast. Huge investments were made for coastal defense. Near my home are the ruins of a WW2 gunpowder plant that was built far away from the coast because the threat was real....not irrelevant.

I'm more than just a fan...I served in the military instruments of such policies. The United States is a corporation...always has been. It has worked out quite well by any measure.

Correct...as does Canada.

Because she says so.

It's the least I can do in the face of smug "moral" superiority.

Because I want to be the Ugly American that you already hate. I want to be the foil that you need to define what it means to be Canadian.

If you need a friend...get a dog.

Dead wrong..NO INFRASTRUCTURE WAS DAMAGED ON THE NORTH AMERICAN MAINLAND...You simply are too immature to admit you've overstated the importance of what are minor events...Sad..

I'm glad you asisted in propping up the likes of The Duvalliers,Trujillos,D'Aubuissons,Samoza's,Pinochet's,and,Stroessners of the world.Fascists are always easy to control.They hate Commies and they're easily bought with guns and money!I'm fairly certain that did'nt work out so well BY ANY MEASURE for those that suffered under those regimes.Some,I might add,with NAZI ties!

If your referring to our complicity in dealing with South American dictators like the current thug contolling Columbia,and the free trade deal that's about to be signed,I agree...The difference is that I don't think that's anything to be proud of.

Lizzy might say it's her throne,but this Canuck has never pledged any allegiance to her!

Could you point out my "smug moral superiority"?The only phonies I've ever seen in something like this is Americans who never admit the very things you do.The think American Empire is about spreading freedom and democracy.It never is,it's about a type of imperial corporate expansion.I don't know what's smug about that because I'm agreeing with you?

I have lots of American friends,none of them are really "ugly"I will say they are occassionally insular and generally poorly informed about things outside of the USA...But not willfuly ignorant,and I certainly don't dislike them.That you would willfuly act that way does'nt make you ugly...It does make you an immature a$$hole,though!This Canuck has never needed the United States to define himself!

I have plenty of friends...I don't have to deal with an immature buffoon who thinks when someone is agreeing with him that the other person is somehow being smug???Seriously,I don't think all of your synapses are firing,BC.

And finally,this thread and your behaviour(which is that of a petulant child,who's never incorrect) is a microcosm of the way you act here.You clearly have some very obvious anger towards the citizens of this country.For whatever reason,you clearly think you are superior to us.And you seem to be compelled to interject your hatred of Canadians you perceive being "smug" whenever possible to reaffirm your purported personal superiority.

You're not an "Ugly American"...You're just a classless,immature jerk!...

I'm tired of dealing with you at all.You add virtually nothing to the discussion here.I see absolutely no benefit in dealing with you any more...

And therefore,it's my sincere hope that more people do what I'm about to do...That is..You get the ignore button!I don't like doing that because I think all points are valid,but yours are so deliberatly caustic,that I don't see how things are helped by the likes of you being around...

Don't bother replying ,kiddo...I'm not going to see or read ya'...