Slam The Doors On Immigration

[Guest TrueMetis]

So, you're argument is that, since the 8th century, the evolutionary shift of power around the globe has basically been caused by rampaging muslims?

Well they are the reason the Renaissance was possible. As well as being the most advanced civilization for a long time.

[bush_cheney2004]

Well they are the reason the Renaissance was possible. As well as being the most advanced civilization for a long time.

So were the Egyptians, Chinese and Indians. Now it's "our" turn!

[Martin Chriton]

The US has about 65 000 H1-B visa participants (new and recurring combined) vs. 900 000 new immigrants/yr. Well more than half of US immigrants come from latin american countries, about 25% from mexico alone. Most of them do not have post-secondary education and typically work in lower paying trade and service sectors. But they do work. Hard.

H1-B is a temporary work visa. The common immigration process for H1-B folks is through the greencard process. My question was % of employer sponsored of immigration in US vs. that of Canada. Your response doesn't answer that. Greencards have to be employer sponsored AFAIK (or through marriage). The other mechanisms might also be employer sponsored or not.

My point about mentioning H1-B earlier is that for greencard is that I'm a US tax payer and I *still* don't have a greencard. Seems like a much better system to have people paying taxes before you even consider them.

Like JBG said earlier, I have no problem with immigrants coming to canada if they are ready to work their asses off. I just happen to think that the vast majority do, and the data supports my position. For the very few older people that come in the care of their working children I say, who cares? Keeping families intact is an honourable thing and I'm happy to live in a country that facilitates it.

As other folks have been saying, it seems like a much better system to have people get jobs first and have employers back their immigration rather than hoping they can get employed. Degrees mean very little if you can't get a job.

I don't fully know what the US is doing but the greencard process has tons of talented folks waiting to get a greencard and they already have jobs and they already are paying taxes. It seems silly to let folks in w/ out jobs when there are folks waiting and already have jobs. However, in that case maybe the US has room to improve too.

Edited April 13, 2010 by Martin Chriton

[bush_cheney2004]

H1-B is a temporary work visa. The common immigration process for H1-B folks is through the greencard process. My question was % of employer sponsored of immigration in US vs. that of Canada. Your response doesn't answer that. Greencards have to be employer sponsored AFAIK (or through marriage). The other mechanisms might also be employer sponsored or not....

Correct...the USA has other Lawful Permanent Resident (LPR) alien criteria for diversity lotteries, business investment capital, family sponsorships, and asylum. The H1-B work visa process is responsive to critical shortages in designated industries and fields, and can be independent or coincident with resident alien temporary works permits and travel parole to and from the US. This is significant because re-entry into the US for work even after years of residency and employment cannot be taken for granted.

[Bonam]

Correct...the USA has other Lawful Permanent Resident (LPR) alien criteria for diversity lotteries, business investment capital, family sponsorships, and asylum. The H1-B work visa process is responsive to critical shortages in designated industries and fields, and can be independent or coincident with resident alien temporary works permits and travel parole to and from the US. This is significant because re-entry into the US for work even after years of residency and employment cannot be taken for granted.

In some ways I'd say the US makes it somewhat too difficult and lengthy for people to become residents/citizens. I find this particularly troublesome in my case because to work in my field of specialty (aerospace) requires a security clearance, which generally is almost impossible to obtain unless one is a US citizen. Even though I've been living and working in the US and will likely continue to do so, it will probably take 7-8 years before I can become a citizen, meanwhile my job prospects are severely limited (although a few cool jobs in my field do exist that don't require the clearance).

Oh well, guess I just gotta excel to the point where I can qualify for EB-1.

Edited April 13, 2010 by Bonam

[bush_cheney2004]

In some ways I'd say the US makes it somewhat too difficult and lengthy for people to become residents/citizens. I find this particularly troublesome in my case because to work in my field of specialty (aerospace) requires a security clearance, which generally is almost impossible to obtain unless one is a US citizen. Even though I've been living and working in the US and will likely continue to do so, it will probably take 7-8 years before I can become a citizen, meanwhile my job prospects are severely limited (although a few cool jobs in my field do exist that don't require the clearance).

Oh well, guess I just gotta excel to the point where I can qualify for EB-1.

Noted, but I think this is by design. Obtaining US citizenship is considered more than just a pathway to secure employment. The time spent to jump through all the hoops is designed to separate the pretenders from the real Yankee Doodle Dandies.

[Bonam]

Noted, but I think this is by design. Obtaining US citizenship is considered more than just a pathway to secure employment. The time spent to jump through all the hoops is designed to separate the pretenders from the real Yankee Doodle Dandies.

Yeah I agree. I guess my real beef would be more with the security clearance system than with the immigration system. Would be nice if the US had some method where it could run an extensive background check on non citizens and issue a security clearance as a somewhat ordinary procedure rather than an extremely rare exception.

Edited April 13, 2010 by Bonam

[bush_cheney2004]

Yeah I agree. I guess my real beef would be more with the security clearance system than with the immigration system. Would be nice if the US had some method where it could run an extensive background check on non citizens and issue a security clearance as a somewhat ordinary procedure rather than an extremely rare exception.

I hear ya, but it's not a simple matter even for US citizens. My security clearance for military service and defense contractor employment still required repeated FBI background checks with interviews of known associates, family, educators, etc. There is a perceived problem for oaths and allegiance, plus outright espionage by non-citizens for their nation. Then they have to be debriefed, sign a bunch of forms, yada, yada, yada.

[dizzy]

H1-B is a temporary work visa. The common immigration process for H1-B folks is through the greencard process. My question was % of employer sponsored of immigration in US vs. that of Canada. Your response doesn't answer that. Greencards have to be employer sponsored AFAIK (or through marriage). The other mechanisms might also be employer sponsored or not.

My point about mentioning H1-B earlier is that for greencard is that I'm a US tax payer and I *still* don't have a greencard. Seems like a much better system to have people paying taxes before you even consider them.

I'm guessing you'll have to do some of your own homework then. H1-B is a temp work visa for specialized sectors. There are, of course, other classes of temporary work visas in the US. I provided you with the total temp work visa number from Canada, which is presently about 150 000/yr. These are people coming to fill employer-sponsored jobs within the canadian economy.

As other folks have been saying, it seems like a much better system to have people get jobs first and have employers back their immigration rather than hoping they can get employed. Degrees mean very little if you can't get a job.

I don't fully know what the US is doing but the greencard process has tons of talented folks waiting to get a greencard and they already have jobs and they already are paying taxes. It seems silly to let folks in w/ out jobs when there are folks waiting and already have jobs. However, in that case maybe the US has room to improve too.

If that is the way you feel, you might find Australia's immigration system more appealing than the US. As I presented, most coming to the US are hard working but not necessarily immediately employable or even equipped to fill an economic need. US immigration is built on something more noble than patching holes in the economy.

[Moonlight Graham]

Noted, but I think this is by design. Obtaining US citizenship is considered more than just a pathway to secure employment. The time spent to jump through all the hoops is designed to separate the pretenders from the real Yankee Doodle Dandies.

US has it right on this front. Canada? Not so much.

[wyly]

There are 160 million Muslims because starting in 700 AD, the Islamic MidEast launched a massive invasion and extermination campaign .. where they demplished Hindu civilization and slaughtered an estimated 80 million Hindus.

do you make up these facts as go??? world population in 700 is estimated at 210 of that as today about one sixth was Indian or about 30-35 million, the muslims must have killed each hindu twice...it's a wonder there are any hindus at all ...

Hence we get to beat our chests smugly and assert our superior first world status. All because of a twist of geography.... the fact that Muslim invaders were so far away that they were exhausted and easily defeated by Charles Martel at Tours. ALso at the gates of Vienna.

far away? they were right next door geographically...and they were not easily defeated by Martel merely held from further advances, the franks fought them for many years...

[Smallc]

US has it right on this front. Canada? Not so much.

Really? I'm sure you have some kind of proof.

[Bonam]

do you make up these facts as go??? world population in 700 is estimated at 210 of that as today about one sixth was Indian or about 30-35 million, the muslims must have killed each hindu twice...it's a wonder there are any hindus at all ...

While I strongly doubt the 80 million number also, it is technically possible, if the killing persisted over multiple generations.

[jbg]

Like JBG said earlier, I have no problem with immigrants coming to canada if they are ready to work their asses off.

I appreciate the compliment. In my experience in the U.S. I have yet to meet a lazy immigrant. Maybe there are some but the relative unavailability of any but mere subsistence benefits militates against that. And while some do come to get free schooling, basically, if you want your child educated, you're by nature a worker. I can live with that.

I just happen to think that the vast majority do, and the data supports my position. For the very few older people that come in the care of their working children I say, who cares? Keeping families intact is an honourable thing and I'm happy to live in a country that facilitates it.

It's maybe an "honorable" thing" but definitely not "honourable". Also, the trouble with "family reunification" as a goal is that then you are bringing in elderly people who don't work a day and draw off the social services networks. That's a serious problem and I'm not sure I'm satisfied with either allowing reunification or not allowing it.

[jbg]

Really? I'm sure you have some kind of proof.

Well, a proof is a proof.

[Bonam]

Well, a proof is a proof.

And if you have a good proof, it's because it's proven.

[jbg]

And if you have a good proof, it's because it's proven.

But first you have to have a proof (link).

[Moonlight Graham]

Really? I'm sure you have some kind of proof.

3 years of residency in Canada seems kinda short to me. The U.S. is five years.

Not proof, just an opinion.

[dizzy]

I appreciate the compliment. In my experience in the U.S. I have yet to meet a lazy immigrant. Maybe there are some but the relative unavailability of any but mere subsistence benefits militates against that. And while some do come to get free schooling, basically, if you want your child educated, you're by nature a worker. I can live with that.

This has been my experience, too. People don't typically make the incredible adjustment to life and location only to sit in front of the tv and collect welfare. There's just no evidence of this.

As for kids, public schooling is an investment in future workers and the best mechanism for cultural integration.

It's maybe an "honorable" thing" but definitely not "honourable". Also, the trouble with "family reunification" as a goal is that then you are bringing in elderly people who don't work a day and draw off the social services networks. That's a serious problem and I'm not sure I'm satisfied with either allowing reunification or not allowing it.

It's very hard to sponsor a senior age parent. Most family class immigrants are children and spouses. The total number of seniors that entered Canada last year was under 7000.

http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/resources/statistics/facts2008/permanent/09.asp

The vast majority of these will be financially cared for by their children, living in their homes. Many are brought over to help run the family and household affairs. I have seen plenty of evidence of this in places like rexdale, where I grew up and on the coney island boardwalk, a place I frequent when I'm in NYC.

[Bonam]

It's very hard to sponsor a senior age parent. Most family class immigrants are children and spouses. The total number of seniors that entered Canada last year was under 7000.

http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/resources/statistics/facts2008/permanent/09.asp

The vast majority of these will be financially cared for by their children, living in their homes. Many are brought over to help run the family and household affairs. I have seen plenty of evidence of this in places like rexdale, where I grew up and on the coney island boardwalk, a place I frequent when I'm in NYC.

We brought over my grandmother about 11 years ago. My parents supported her financially for three years, after which she became a citizen and now receives a pension from the government.

[Muddy]

I appreciate the compliment. In my experience in the U.S. I have yet to meet a lazy immigrant. Maybe there are some but the relative unavailability of any but mere subsistence benefits militates against that. And while some do come to get free schooling, basically, if you want your child educated, you're by nature a worker. I can live with that.

It's maybe an "honorable" thing" but definitely not "honourable". Also, the trouble with "family reunification" as a goal is that then you are bringing in elderly people who don't work a day and draw off the social services networks. That's a serious problem and I'm not sure I'm satisfied with either allowing reunification or not allowing it.

Sorry JBG, it`s you Yanks who do not know how to spell.Honourable is the correct spelling. We let you use our language so the least you can do is stop bastardizing it.LOL

[Handsome Rob]

2. immigrants tend to be better educated than the average resident canadian

3. immigrants are big contributors to our advanced knowledge pool (PhD or other post grads, sciences, etc)

4. immigrants who can't work in their field still contribute by working (often in lower paying jobs)

Flawed statistics. The number of degrees I've seen from Mickey Mouse U, yet you try to teach, when this light goes on, press this button.......I'm not surprised employers choose not to recognize credentials. Don't blame them either.

[Martin Chriton]

US immigration is built on something more noble than patching holes in the economy.

What do you mean by this? If it isn't for those immigrants to have jobs and be productive members of society than it's for charity and should be clearly labeled as such.

For those immigrants that aren't charity cases we should be careful to only let in those are the most employable and the best way to decide that is if they are have job offers or even better in Canada working on a work visa. Why risk accepting someone that doesn't have an offer when there are people waiting with job offers.

[dizzy]

What do you mean by this? If it isn't for those immigrants to have jobs and be productive members of society than it's for charity and should be clearly labeled as such.

For those immigrants that aren't charity cases we should be careful to only let in those are the most employable and the best way to decide that is if they are have job offers or even better in Canada working on a work visa. Why risk accepting someone that doesn't have an offer when there are people waiting with job offers.

What does it read on the Statue of Liberty?

Two things:

1. High skill jobs are not the only important labour market sector. Canada is a service economy and, indeed, it makes up a large part of the american system, too. Some lower skill jobs (like the agribusiness sector) use migrant worker programs for their labour, but the local restaurant isn't going to do this to find their next dishwasher.

2. More importantly, immigration isn't just about filling immediate holes in the job market. It's also a critical pillar in the building of society. Besides, why would you trust politicians and bureaucrats to accurately predict the needs of the job market over a 20+ yr period? Bringing an immigrant in isn't like importing a temporary worker; you can't send them away when labour priorities shift.

[dizzy]

Flawed statistics. The number of degrees I've seen from Mickey Mouse U, yet you try to teach, when this light goes on, press this button.......I'm not surprised employers choose not to recognize credentials. Don't blame them either.

Feel free to disprove the data I've provided with facts or to provide some evidence of your own.