Slam The Doors On Immigration

[Mr.Canada]

Immigration should be halted for the time being simply due to the lack of employment. Canadians themselves cannot find jobs yet we're letting in 25,000 new immigrants a month. Doesn't make much sense to me. For right now we should be letting in the ones who have money and are going to set up businesses we don't need any more poor ones to be a further drain on our system. Canadians need to use the system now and that should take precedence.

Edited April 9, 2010 by Mr.Canada

[Handsome Rob]

They would if the places they were living in weren't being flooded with a constant stream of additional immigrants from their home countries. As it is, they can't "Canadianize" themselves as "Canada" retreats all around them and they instead grow up in communities identical to those which their parents left.

Very broad statement. My boss (The Mrs.) was born overseas and is very much Canadian. My workplace is flooded with immigrants, as a white anglo-saxon male, I am very much a visible minority. However the overwhelming majority of those born in Canada are Canadianized per se. They may hold onto the language, and different food, but that's pretty much it. They still watch American television, buy consumer products en masse, speak english well, etc, etc. It's not uncommon to see things like Indian girls leaving home in traditional dress, headed for the club with mini-skirts the the parents don't know about hidden in the purse.

[wyly]

Immigration should be halted for the time being simply due to the lack of employment. Canadians themselves cannot find jobs yet we're letting in 25,000 new immigrants a month. Doesn't make much sense to me. For right now we should be letting in the ones who have money and are going to set up businesses we don't need any more poor ones to be a further drain on our system. Canadians need to use the system now and that should take precedence.

we have a shortage of qualified people to fill jobs, one source (CBC News)cited a source claiming that Canada needed many as a million job openings that could not be filled by Canadians, being unemployed is not a job qualification...

[wyly]

It's not the point system that is failing us but the inability of immigrants to get their foreign-earned credentials recognized by our professional bodies. Y'know, doctors driving taxis and all that. Where the US clearly has a better immigration system is in this one important detail - immigrants can easily work in their field when they get there.

the problem with foreign earned credentials is language...an MD no matter how good he or she is can not practice safely if they do not have absolute fluency, a misunderstanding in communication with a patient or a misspelling of a prescription can be fatal...

[Dave_ON]

we have a shortage of qualified people to fill jobs, one source (CBC News)cited a source claiming that Canada needed many as a million job openings that could not be filled by Canadians, being unemployed is not a job qualification...

This is absolutely the true issue at hand. Many people mistake the unemployment rate for a lack of jobs. Such is not the case; many of the jobs that were lost over the past few years have been in the manufacturing industry. I have a friend in his late 40's that worked at a parts plant his whole life. It just recently shutdown, he doesn't even have his high school diploma. He's currently working on that much through an EI sponsored program. My suspicion is that many of the folks that were in some type of manufacturing job are in similar situations. It was a different time 30 years ago and you could get by with less education and skill and still have a relatively comfortable living.

The issue isn't a lack of jobs in Canada the issue is lack of skill in our work force. There are various government programs that are working to offset this but it will be many years hence before we see the effects. We really need to focus on our current high school students and start preparing them for the reality that is to come. They need to shift the focus away from trying to encourage everyone to go to university. They should focus on getting students to look at picking up skills, trades, or post secondary education that will actually benefit them and our society as a whole. We need skilled labourers, and trades people every bit as much as we do Doctors and Lawyers. BA's are becoming as common as high school diplomas but many of them are in useless disciplines that won't get them a decent job.

[wyly]

This is absolutely the true issue at hand. Many people mistake the unemployment rate for a lack of jobs. Such is not the case; many of the jobs that were lost over the past few years have been in the manufacturing industry. I have a friend in his late 40's that worked at a parts plant his whole life. It just recently shutdown, he doesn't even have his high school diploma. He's currently working on that much through an EI sponsored program. My suspicion is that many of the folks that were in some type of manufacturing job are in similar situations. It was a different time 30 years ago and you could get by with less education and skill and still have a relatively comfortable living.

The issue isn't a lack of jobs in Canada the issue is lack of skill in our work force. There are various government programs that are working to offset this but it will be many years hence before we see the effects. We really need to focus on our current high school students and start preparing them for the reality that is to come. They need to shift the focus away from trying to encourage everyone to go to university. They should focus on getting students to look at picking up skills, trades, or post secondary education that will actually benefit them and our society as a whole. We need skilled labourers, and trades people every bit as much as we do Doctors and Lawyers. BA's are becoming as common as high school diplomas but many of them are in useless disciplines that won't get them a decent job.

and the various employers can't wait for a generation of Canadians to be trained, they need them now...immigration is the quickest way to fill those positions...

[Argus]

not...only demonstrates indo canadians have their share of ignorant bigots just as this forum does...

You amply demonstrate that here on a regular basis.

[Argus]

The only evidence I've seen suggests that most immigrant groups overachieve in postsecondary education and benefit accordingly by the second generation:

http://www.statcan.gc.ca/cgi-bin/af-fdr.cgi?l=eng&loc=/pub/11f0019m/11f0019m2008308-eng.pdf

Indo Canadians are second in this regard only to Chinese Canadians and above 'regular' Canadians.

Unfortunately, this is outdated. The children it speaks of are adults who are presumably at least in their mid to late twenties. Ie, these figures are for immigrants from a quarter century or so ago. That was a time when immigrants who arrived in Canada performed better, economically, than Canadian born people.

That has been spiralling downward for many years, however, and now immigrants within the last fifteen years or so perform significantly less well than their Canadian born counterparts. There is no reason to believe their children will reverse this trend as the only underlying feature of the study you cite is that educated professionals with good jobs and money tend to push their kids into university. I don't think that works as well for taxi drivers, security guards and store clerks.

[Argus]

only on your third post here welcome ...racism is rampant on this forum

Stupidity, too...

[Argus]

Depends how you keep score. If money is the only means, then agreed.

But when we print somebody a passport, we accept them as a Canadian. Does a Canadian not deserve to be able to bring there grandparents here?

Should we all be slaving away at an infinite number of typewriters, ever pursuing that bottom line?

Or should we try and build a nice place to live, where we can have some economic productions, and some losses that are traded for quality of life?

I'd like to live in the second one, that's how I view present Canada, although I think we've moved much to far away from the bottom line and we're paying for it now.

That's real sweet sentiment, but it completely ignores the point. That being, if one of your reasons for bringing over immigrants is that they support an aging workforce it would certainly help if we weren't bringing across immigrants who were just as old as our aging workforce.

Edited April 9, 2010 by Argus

[Argus]

Did "Liberals" really decide to bring in immigrants based upon the idea of creating voting banks for their party?

It's been pretty obvious for some decades that Canada's immigration policy is driven by votes not the needs of Canada.

As I said not that long ago in another thread, Canada has never actually formally articulated the need for immigrants, or ever made any economic attempt to justify why we bring over the type or numbers we do. Specious arguments like "we need them to support our aging population" or "we need them because of a shortage of skilled workers" simply do not pan out under even cursory examination, much less the application of a little logic.

[Argus]

My goodness! What have conservatives done to counter this creation of voting banks?

Tried to emulate the efforts with mixed results.

[Argus]

Not a darn thing. They can`t change the Liberal`s Red and White. It is my contention that official multiculturism was the greatest plan that Trudeau ever devised to keep minorities voting Liberal.

To be fair, my understanding of Trudeau's justification for Multiculturalism was to break up the French-English cultural standoff. He felt if there were dozens of ethnic groups in Canada then the perpetual fight between English and French would be sort of watered down and dispersed.

[Argus]

It's not the point system that is failing us but the inability of immigrants to get their foreign-earned credentials recognized by our professional bodies. Y'know, doctors driving taxis and all that. Where the US clearly has a better immigration system is in this one important detail - immigrants can easily work in their field when they get there.

I have heard this complaint many times. I have yet to see much in the way of supporting evidence. I have seen few numbers which indicate there are massive numbers of "professionals" who could find work (outside their ethnic communities) if only their credentials were accepted without question or investigation.

The reason most professionals can't find a job is because few want to hire people who can barely function above taxi-driver level English for high paying jobs which require superior communications skills.

[Argus]

we have a shortage of qualified people to fill jobs, one source (CBC News)cited a source claiming that Canada needed many as a million job openings that could not be filled by Canadians, being unemployed is not a job qualification...

None of those claims have ever actually been backed up by real evidence.

Nor have those who make them ever suggested the obvious recourse of training Canadians to do that work.

Mostly that's because the "sources" in question, are corporations which want to bring in people who will take jobs for a lot less pay than their Canadian counterparts, and be damned grateful for it. And work overtime without pay too if their employer tells them to.

[Argus]

and the various employers can't wait for a generation of Canadians to be trained, they need them now...immigration is the quickest way to fill those positions with eager, obedient employees who will work really cheaply.

Fixed that for ya.

[dizzy]

the problem with foreign earned credentials is language...an MD no matter how good he or she is can not practice safely if they do not have absolute fluency, a misunderstanding in communication with a patient or a misspelling of a prescription can be fatal...

Not true. The problem with medical professionals who don't speak either english or french might be the language barrier. Those who speak english well, often as a first language are in the same boat as those who don't... driving cabs or re-emmigrating to the US where they can get their credentials recognized quickly.

The real problem are medical associations that want to keep the pool of clients contained in a fee-for-service environment.

[dizzy]

Unfortunately, this is outdated. The children it speaks of are adults who are presumably at least in their mid to late twenties. Ie, these figures are for immigrants from a quarter century or so ago. That was a time when immigrants who arrived in Canada performed better, economically, than Canadian born people.

That has been spiralling downward for many years, however, and now immigrants within the last fifteen years or so perform significantly less well than their Canadian born counterparts. There is no reason to believe their children will reverse this trend as the only underlying feature of the study you cite is that educated professionals with good jobs and money tend to push their kids into university. I don't think that works as well for taxi drivers, security guards and store clerks.

It's a continuing trend. Feel free to disprove with evidence that second generation children of east/south asian heritage don't outperform every other segment of society up until today. Then look at from where the biggest numbers of immigrants come.

[dizzy]

I have heard this complaint many times. I have yet to see much in the way of supporting evidence. I have seen few numbers which indicate there are massive numbers of "professionals" who could find work (outside their ethnic communities) if only their credentials were accepted without question or investigation.

The reason most professionals can't find a job is because few want to hire people who can barely function above taxi-driver level English for high paying jobs which require superior communications skills.

Your federal government disagrees. Here's a plan they've recently established to address the problems surrounding foreign credential recognition:

http://www.actionplan.gc.ca/initiatives/eng/index.asp?mode=3&initiativeID=76

The problem, of course, is that much of this domain rests with the provinces and their empowered regulating bodies. I give the federal conservatives credit for recognizing the problem and attempting a pan-canadian solution.

[Mr.Canada]

we have a shortage of qualified people to fill jobs, one source (CBC News)cited a source claiming that Canada needed many as a million job openings that could not be filled by Canadians, being unemployed is not a job qualification...

Being from a third world country is?

We need to be picking the best and the brightest from the applications. Those who have skills that Canada needs, well then there application goes to the front of the line. Skills we need less go the back. That's how it should be done.

[wyly]

Not true. The problem with medical professionals who don't speak either english or french might be the language barrier. Those who speak english well, often as a first language are in the same boat as those who don't... driving cabs or re-emmigrating to the US where they can get their credentials recognized quickly.

The real problem are medical associations that want to keep the pool of clients contained in a fee-for-service environment.

I know an MD who is involved in the process and it's absolutely true...MD's aren't driving cabs because of some medical association conspiracy to keep them from working, if they're not working they've failed some portion of the qualification process...Canada has a very high standard to practice medicine here and it's not going to be lowered for those with substandard qualifications or language abilities...if it's so easy to practice medicine in the USA why aren't they there, why are they driving cabs here??? because they're not qualified...

[wyly]

Being from a third world country is?

We need to be picking the best and the brightest from the applications. Those who have skills that Canada needs, well then there application goes to the front of the line. Skills we need less go the back. That's how it should be done.

that's the process...surprisingly most are likely better educated or skilled than you...

[dizzy]

I know an MD who is involved in the process and it's absolutely true...MD's aren't driving cabs because of some medical association conspiracy to keep them from working, if they're not working they've failed some portion of the qualification process...Canada has a very high standard to practice medicine here and it's not going to be lowered for those with substandard qualifications or language abilities...if it's so easy to practice medicine in the USA why aren't they there, why are they driving cabs here??? because they're not qualified...

I don't disagree that language is the barrier for some. But:

http://www.insidetoronto.com/news/business/article/218392--deal-to-speed-foreign-credential-recognition

There's also an episode of White Coat Black Art that I'm trying to track down for you, where Dr. Goldman interviews some (born and raised) Canadians who decided to complete their medical studies in other countries, in places like Ireland and australia, I think, because acceptance rates were higher, but then returned to Canada to hit the credential wall.

[conservicon]

Lost in this discussion is Banerjee's point : WHY THE DIFFERENCE WITH THE USA?

I have done some research on this, and he is correct: American Hindus have the HIGHEST per capita income of all ethnic groups, including double that of white Americans.

US hospitals are full of Indian doctors at the highest level, an example being DR SANJAY GUPTA of CNN fame.

I thimk the answer has gotta be the calibre of 'South Asian' coming in.

Would it be racist for me to say (as Banerjee has done) that one difference is that America brings in less Pakistanis, Sri Lankans, Muslims, Punjabis/Sikhs.... and more of the 'right sort' (yes, dreadfully elitist thinking.. so shoot me).

One colleague in the States told me that in some years, US companies simply walk into the graduating class of the top IITs in India and offer all grads six figure salaries.

Do Canadian firms do that? Do Canadians even realize how great these people are... or do we just believe that all brown folks are the same?

[Argus]

It's a continuing trend. Feel free to disprove with evidence that second generation children of east/south asian heritage don't outperform every other segment of society up until today. Then look at from where the biggest numbers of immigrants come.

Yeah, okay, you'll have to wait at least a decade or so for them to grow up and go to university - or not - though.