Victory At Last

[bush_cheney2004]

An interesting claim. I'm not sure that it is necessarily the case. Different cultures seem to have developed economic systems that differ from each other. And of course economic systems have varied greatly throughout history.

Different is fine....economics is more fundamental than that, whether we trade goats or soybeans futures.

[Bonam]

Different is fine....economics is more fundamental than that, whether we trade goats or soybeans futures.

And if nothing at all is traded? If the needs of survival are and the tasks to be done are shared communally as in a primitive tribe? Or if the means of production are owned by the state and distributed according to some rationing scheme as in communism? Or if each individual can simply have whatever they want, in a society where scarcity is absent?

Economics as we know it is a result of the human condition, that of relative scarcity of goods and services and the existence of a market where these can be traded and the existence of a medium of exchange. None of these are necessarily fundamental.

[bush_cheney2004]

And if nothing at all is traded? If the needs of survival are and the tasks to be done are shared communally as in a primitive tribe? Or if the means of production are owned by the state and distributed according to some rationing scheme as in communism? Or if each individual can simply have whatever they want, in a society where scarcity is absent?

Even "primitive tribes" understood economics as ways to manage scarcity and demand. What we see in most of the so called third world is the absence of social and political stability because the underlying economic framework is weak or broken.

Economics as we know it is a result of the human condition, that of relative scarcity of goods and services and the existence of a market where these can be traded and the existence of a medium of exchange. None of these are necessarily fundamental.

I disagree...the concepts are the same regardless of the enabling technologies of communications, transportation, energy, etc.

Edited April 14, 2010 by bush_cheney2004

[Bonam]

I disagree...the concepts are the same regardless of the enabling technologies of communications, transportation, energy, etc.

I disagree again. All of these "enabling technologies" have a profound impact on economics.

Let's start with money. It is true that you can have trade without money, that is, barter. But without money the economy that can exist is only a very simple one. Once a common medium of exchange is created, the complexity of economic interactions can increase. Further, once electronic banking is added to the mix, the complexity of economic interactions increases vastly. The rules of economics are vastly extended as you add these complex interactions to the equation.

As for communication and transportation... these allow economic interactions over larger distances. Once one's sphere of economic interaction grows beyond one's village to, basically, the whole world, the economic reality is substantially altered.

[bush_cheney2004]

...As for communication and transportation... these allow economic interactions over larger distances. Once one's sphere of economic interaction grows beyond one's village to, basically, the whole world, the economic reality is substantially altered.

Okay, but it is not realistic to judge ancient economies by today's scaled up standards. Obviously older cultures thrived on both micro and macro-economic levels. War in and of itself is only a temporary setback for the victor or vanquished, and in some cases "liberates" economic imperatives, because wars and conflicts are just another symptom of competing interests.

[Bonam]

Okay, but it is not realistic to judge ancient economies by today's scaled up standards. Obviously older cultures thrived on both micro and macro-economic levels.

The point is that the economies that exist vary both based on the culture and the technology present. A different culture may give rise to different notions of economics.

War in and of itself is only a temporary setback for the victor or vanquished, and in some cases "liberates" economic imperatives, because wars and conflicts are just another symptom of competing interests.

Depends. The vanquished may in some cases no longer exist after a war.

[bush_cheney2004]

The point is that the economies that exist vary both based on the culture and the technology present. A different culture may give rise to different notions of economics.

That's fine....economics is very flexible that way. Our political systems would crumble without a sound economic foundation, and in many respects is more fragile than simpler "notions". It is not a matter of better, it is a matter of viability at any scale for allocation of scarce resources.

Depends. The vanquished may in some cases no longer exist after a war.

That is left to the archeologists.

[Bonam]

That's fine....economics is very flexible that way. Our political systems would crumble without a sound economic foundation, and in many respects is more fragile than simpler "notions". It is not a matter of better, it is a matter of viability at any scale for allocation of scarce resources.

I'd say it really is a matter of "better". Different economic systems have different levels of efficiency when it comes to the creation and distribution of wealth. Hence why, for example, capitalism is so much more successful than communism.

[bush_cheney2004]

I'd say it really is a matter of "better". Different economic systems have different levels of efficiency when it comes to the creation and distribution of wealth. Hence why, for example, capitalism is so much more successful than communism.

That's a different matter altogether....many would decry capitalism based on recent experience. Ancient economies supported social and political structures for thousands of years. We have people who now swear that our present system is going to destroy the entire planet!

Victory in Iraq or Afghanistan will look best if and when they have economies that function well.

[Bonam]

That's a different matter altogether....many would decry capitalism based on recent experience. Ancient economies supported social and political structures for thousands of years.

Iraq and Afghanistan had these too. Especially Iraq.

Victory in Iraq or Afghanistan will look best if and when they have economies that function well.

How do you define a "well functioning" economy?

[bush_cheney2004]

Iraq and Afghanistan had these too. Especially Iraq.

Had...as in past tense. That was/is the problem.

How do you define a "well functioning" economy?

The attributes of a "well functioning" economy are very similar regardless of context. Efficiencies, trade, competition, medium of exchange, investment, decision making (choices), access to raw materials, communications, transportation, yada, yada, yada.

[maple_leafs182]

Lets work on bringing democracy to America before we start worrying about Iraq

[sharkman]

Lets work on bringing democracy to America before we start worrying about Iraq

A little late for that isn't it? On account of Iraq being invaded and their genocide lovin' dictator overthrown and then executed. At any rate, we should bring democracy to America, and I think we should start with Venezuela. South America needs some more democracy bad.

[bush_cheney2004]

Lets work on bringing democracy to America before we start worrying about Iraq

Based on this forum's "Federal Politics" threads, looks like you better start in Canada first before worrying about anybody else. Where is Parliament? At the Olympics!

[jathu_v]

Victory for neoconservatives...

[Born Free]

Based on this forum's "Federal Politics" threads, looks like you better start in Canada first before worrying about anybody else. Where is Parliament? At the Olympics!

We're not worried but you should be. Yer still fighting the Civil War down there...

[Sir Bandelot]

Uncertainty reigns months after inconclusive election

BAGHDAD - Gunmen using weapons fitted with silencers attacked checkpoints and suicide and car bombers targeted civilians as insurgents launched assaults in Iraq that killed dozens of people on Monday.

The bombs are going off and the body parts are flying once again. US troops have pulled back. It's a bit early to say but this could shape up to be a civil war, with the power vacuum left behind from the recent election.

"Mission Accomplished"

[bush_cheney2004]

....The bombs are going off and the body parts are flying once again. US troops have pulled back. It's a bit early to say but this could shape up to be a civil war, with the power vacuum left behind from the recent election.

"Mission Accomplished"

Ya think? Or do you just want that to be the case after a "power vacuum"? Saddam is not coming back...because "Mission Accomplished".

[Sir Bandelot]

Or do you just want that to be the case after a "power vacuum"?

No, I don't want that to be the case. Others here might think that in Iraq all is now fine and well. There is a possibility Iraq could become a more theocratic state than before, in line with Iran. You of course couldn't care less what happens next, either way.

[sharkman]

Uncertainty reigns months after inconclusive election

BAGHDAD - Gunmen using weapons fitted with silencers attacked checkpoints and suicide and car bombers targeted civilians as insurgents launched assaults in Iraq that killed dozens of people on Monday.

The bombs are going off and the body parts are flying once again. US troops have pulled back. It's a bit early to say but this could shape up to be a civil war, with the power vacuum left behind from the recent election.

"Mission Accomplished"

Really, how many of these events have been happening, or is this just a single event? Wouldn't it be kind of early to say that the former chaos is reappearing after only one event?

[bush_cheney2004]

No, I don't want that to be the case. Others here might think that in Iraq all is now fine and well. There is a possibility Iraq could become a more theocratic state than before, in line with Iran. You of course couldn't care less what happens next, either way.

Many Americans are shot each day....every day....so when is America's next Civil War?

Nobody is ever shot in Canada!

[Sir Bandelot]

Wouldn't it be kind of early to say that the former chaos is reappearing after only one event?

Yes, I believe it would be.

[Sir Bandelot]

Many Americans are shot each day....every day....so when is America's next Civil War?

BAGHDAD - Officials say at least 15 people have been killed by two bombings that hit the southern city of Basra, pushing the death toll for Iraq's worst day of violence this year to nearly 100. Police and hospital officials in the Shiite port city said dozens more were also injured.

The Basra blasts were the latest to hit Iraq Monday. The worst attack of the day was a triple bombing in the Shiite city of Hillah that killed at least 45.

Why cans't Johnny read?

[bush_cheney2004]

Why cans't Johnny read?

or spell? LOL!

[Sir Bandelot]

or spell? LOL!

I'm glad you enjoyed the joke!