Ban the Burka?

[waldo]

Finally a women who appreciates the freedoms hard won by strong women of yesterday. Thank you MysTerri.

finally? Where were they? What have they been waiting for?

I wasn't aware of those "hard fighting strong women of yesterday"... the ones responsible for "freedom from burkas" in western society. Here I thought the so-called liberation and freedom exhibited in western women's clothing had as much to do with sexploitation - go figure.

[Muddy]

finally? Where were they? What have they been waiting for?

I wasn't aware of those "hard fighting strong women of yesterday"... the ones responsible for "freedom from burkas" in western society. Here I thought the so-called liberation and freedom exhibited in western women's clothing had as much to do with sexploitation - go figure.

Well quite obviously you have never met the women in my family.They are beautiful, independent ,kind,generous and are not obligated to a dress code inflicted by the men in their lives.

[Michael Hardner]

One wonders why any free women in North America would want to wear a symbol of male oppression.

Such as the mini-skirt. Am I the only one who finds the new wave of Harper-era feminism a little strange ?

[bloodyminded]

Such as the mini-skirt. Am I the only one who finds the new wave of Harper-era feminism a little strange ?

Yes, and I think because it's almost reactionary at heart. It isn't so much about the way women are treated here: they are cited for the sake of demonizing the "enemy."

[waldo]

Finally a women who appreciates the freedoms hard won by strong women of yesterday. Thank you MysTerri.

finally? Where were they? What have they been waiting for?

I wasn't aware of those "hard fighting strong women of yesterday"... the ones responsible for "freedom from burkas" in western society. Here I thought the so-called liberation and freedom exhibited in western women's clothing had as much to do with sexploitation - go figure.

Well quite obviously you have never met the women in my family.They are beautiful, independent ,kind,generous and are not obligated to a dress code inflicted by the men in their lives.

really? Oh my! Are you one of those tallyban controlling types that kept 'your women' completely isolated from societal influences/norms, from peer-pressure, from manipulative advertising, from controlling fashion trends, from materialism, from sex influenced mass media, from sexual glorification, from 'entertainment' outlets... from commercial sexploitation... from all of that and much more! If they've managed an isolation from it all, just what dress code obligations are 'your women' aligned with and following?

[Muddy]

really? Oh my! Are you one of those tallyban controlling types that kept 'your women' completely isolated from societal influences/norms, from peer-pressure, from manipulative advertising, from controlling fashion trends, from materialism, from sex influenced mass media, from sexual glorification, from 'entertainment' outlets... from commercial sexploitation... from all of that and much more! If they've managed an isolation from it all, just what dress code obligations are 'your women' aligned with and following?

I can not for the life of me see what your on about! That is just drivel. They dress in any damn way they please thank you very much to answer your last question.

[waldo]

I can not for the life of me see what your on about! That is just drivel. They dress in any damn way they please thank you very much to answer your last question.

well, of course... you alluded to, as you stated, "strong women of yesterday who won them freedoms". I am somewhat keen in recognizing just who these strong women were, particularly in the context of the burka discussion. You know, which strong women gained the freedoms to allow, 'your women', not to wear the burka? Who were they?

mine was simply a counter offer to your suggestion that, 'your women' independently dressed themselves without obligations to other inflictions, be they the, as you stated, 'men in their lives'... or... other outside influences - of which I catalogued several that only someone in complete isolation could avoid.

as I asked, just who were these strong women you alluded to... and where did they disappear to in relation to the assortment of western clothing that, on certain levels, could be construed, by some, as very disrespectful of the female form and women in general.

[Bonam]

Such as the mini-skirt. Am I the only one who finds the new wave of Harper-era feminism a little strange ?

How is a mini-skirt a symbol of oppression? A woman having the choice to wear an article of clothing that is somewhat revealing is oppression now? Perhaps next you'll be calling their right to have an education oppression? After all we are cruelly forcing girls to go to school when they may want to be doing something else. The horror!

In general, an individual should be free to wear as much or as little as they please except where it compromises the security of others. Additionally, any individual or enterprise has the right to impose whatever dress codes they want on their particular property. For example, requiring a shirt and shoes and a clearly visible face to access services.

[MysTerri]

finally? Where were they? What have they been waiting for?

I wasn't aware of those "hard fighting strong women of yesterday"... the ones responsible for "freedom from burkas" in western society. Here I thought the so-called liberation and freedom exhibited in western women's clothing had as much to do with sexploitation - go figure.

There you go Waldo, sneaking your perverted sense of style into my closet. GET OUT!

[MysTerri]

well, of course... you alluded to, as you stated, "strong women of yesterday who won them freedoms". I am somewhat keen in recognizing just who these strong women were, particularly in the context of the burka discussion. You know, which strong women gained the freedoms to allow, 'your women', not to wear the burka? Who were they?

mine was simply a counter offer to your suggestion that, 'your women' independently dressed themselves without obligations to other inflictions, be they the, as you stated, 'men in their lives'... or... other outside influences - of which I catalogued several that only someone in complete isolation could avoid.

as I asked, just who were these strong women you alluded to... and where did they disappear to in relation to the assortment of western clothing that, on certain levels, could be construed, by some, as very disrespectful of the female form and women in general.

Waldo, you're not a Catholic priest are you?

[MysTerri]

really? Oh my! Are you one of those tallyban controlling types that kept 'your women' completely isolated from societal influences/norms, from peer-pressure, from manipulative advertising, from controlling fashion trends, from materialism, from sex influenced mass media, from sexual glorification, from 'entertainment' outlets... from commercial sexploitation... from all of that and much more! If they've managed an isolation from it all, just what dress code obligations are 'your women' aligned with and following?

Hey wait a minute, I have heard this kind of talk before. Isn't this the kind of thing someone says to justify their evil notions about women? I mean Waldo your argument is ladened with 'comparisons' and 'judgments'. Chill dude, we are not in the foothills of the Himalayas. Nothing about the way "western" women dress is just cause for any beastly reactions from ANYONE. So stop setting western women up for abuse by belittling them with your antiquated twisted fashion logic; you're off the wall.

Edited April 20, 2010 by MysTerri

[MysTerri]

This is slightly unrelated so I'm sorry but this post has already been derailed anyways. This is what the socialists do. If they cannot win a fight they derail the conversation in order to change the channel.

Now. Since this new and even before it I have never, ever seen a woman walking around topless, neither has anyone I know. If anyone has, post on it.

In North America, as in most other countries in the Europe & world, there are always places women can go topless, bottomless too in some cases. Like in Constanza by the Sea, Romania at the mouth of the Danube, women go top/bottomless, and so do the men.

Can you imagine the women being allowed to run around in birthday suits while men had to wrap head to toe? It would be unheard of in this world. But back to your question, yes there are many places in Canada I personally know of (Meech Lake, Wreck Beach, Martinique Beach and tons of others) women walk around perfectly topless, and as I mentioned, bottomless if they so choose. As do men.

However I would not want to walk around downtown naked. That is where I am free to wear a mini skirt with leggings if I so choose. That does not mean anyone has the right to do with me as THEY so choose. Men need to get a grip of their own emotions more than women need to hide themselves from men. I wouldn't WANT to live around such men, or women, who thought the way I dressed was reason enough for their lack of control, reason to abuse me. Especially with your suggestive comments, Waldo. You seem to have some sort of 'mother' hang-up.

Don't get me wrong. I think it is good for restrictive men to come from their former countries to this one; it gives them a chance to mature and learn to control them selves instead of trying to control everyone else around them. But that is what I expect them to do in THIS country; control themselves and stay within OUR laws, not use how a woman dresses as an excuse to take the law into their own hands.

As for "their women", if they would like the opportunity to live without a Burka and make new friends, it is one they shouldn't miss. We may seem like 'softies', 'lazy people' who have had it too good for too long, but we are not about to let OUR way of life be changed into something that is foreign, by people who do not want to join us as a common community.

This is Canada. Here, we like to see who hit us while traveling, if we can. We like to see who is serving us food. We want to know who is in our class room. We need to know who is at the till in a bank. Who is coming through our airports, in our libraries & malls. We need to have the security of knowing the answers to these questions. Showing our faces is a proud Canadian tradition stating we are glad to be here. I understand women who wear Burkas come from another culture; here they are in ours. That they must accept too.

No, I do NOT feel I HAVE to accept EVERYTHING about every culture that we welcome into ours. I do NOT accept the part of a culture that says women must dress with faces covered. NO sir, I don't like that one little bit. NO culture is worth my security. This is how it is in this culture. Accept it.

Edited April 20, 2010 by MysTerri

[waldo]

Finally a women who appreciates the freedoms hard won by strong women of yesterday. Thank you MysTerri.

finally? Where were they? What have they been waiting for?

I wasn't aware of those "hard fighting strong women of yesterday"... the ones responsible for "freedom from burkas" in western society. Here I thought the so-called liberation and freedom exhibited in western women's clothing had as much to do with sexploitation - go figure.

Well quite obviously you have never met the women in my family.They are beautiful, independent ,kind,generous and are not obligated to a dress code inflicted by the men in their lives.

really? Oh my! Are you one of those tallyban controlling types that kept 'your women' completely isolated from societal influences/norms, from peer-pressure, from manipulative advertising, from controlling fashion trends, from materialism, from sex influenced mass media, from sexual glorification, from 'entertainment' outlets... from commercial sexploitation... from all of that and much more! If they've managed an isolation from it all, just what dress code obligations are 'your women' aligned with and following?

Hey wait a minute, I have heard this kind of talk before. Isn't this the kind of thing someone says to justify their evil notions about women? I mean Waldo your argument is ladened with 'comparisons' and 'judgments'. Chill dude, we are not in the foothills of the Himalayas. Nothing about the way "western" women dress is just cause for any beastly reactions from ANYONE. So stop setting western women up for abuse by belittling them with your antiquated twisted fashion logic; you're off the wall.

just what is my argument? What ‘comparisons and judgments’ do you interpret? What beastly reactions do you speak of? Who is your ANYONE?

how have I setup western women for abuse? What belittling do you interpret? What is my fashion logic, antiquated, twisted or otherwise?

[Bonam]

Don't get me wrong. I think it is good for restrictive men to come from their former countries to this one; it gives them a chance to mature and learn to control them selves instead of trying to control everyone else around them.

It may be good for them but is it good for us?

but we are not about to let OUR way of life be changed into something that is foreign

Unfortunately, many of us are willing to let precisely this happen. See the immigration thread.

No, I do NOT feel I HAVE to except EVERYTHING about every culture that we welcome into ours. I do NOT except the part of a culture that says women must dress with faces covered. NO sir, I don't like that one little bit. NO culture is worth my security. This is how it is in this culture. Except that.

Couldn't agree more

[waldo]

well, of course... you alluded to, as you stated, "strong women of yesterday who won them freedoms". I am somewhat keen in recognizing just who these strong women were, particularly in the context of the burka discussion. You know, which strong women gained the freedoms to allow, 'your women', not to wear the burka? Who were they?

mine was simply a counter offer to your suggestion that, 'your women' independently dressed themselves without obligations to other inflictions, be they the, as you stated, 'men in their lives'... or... other outside influences - of which I catalogued several that only someone in complete isolation could avoid.

as I asked, just who were these strong women you alluded to... and where did they disappear to in relation to the assortment of western clothing that, on certain levels, could be construed, by some, as very disrespectful of the female form and women in general.

Waldo, you're not a Catholic priest are you?

what interpreted underlying pretext and/or observed overt construct within my reply gives you pause to question in that regard?

[Bonam]

just what is my argument? What ‘comparisons and judgments’ do you interpret? What beastly reactions do you speak of? Who is your ANYONE?

how have I setup western women for abuse? What belittling do you interpret? What is my fashion logic, antiquated, twisted or otherwise?

I could answer this and explain just how twisted your notions about western women seem to be but I'm confident MysTerri will give you quite the sound thrashing.

Edited April 20, 2010 by Bonam

[waldo]

Finally a women who appreciates the freedoms hard won by strong women of yesterday. Thank you MysTerri.

finally? Where were they? What have they been waiting for?

I wasn't aware of those "hard fighting strong women of yesterday"... the ones responsible for "freedom from burkas" in western society. Here I thought the so-called liberation and freedom exhibited in western women's clothing had as much to do with sexploitation - go figure.

There you go Waldo, sneaking your perverted sense of style into my closet. GET OUT!

in response to your comment, Muddy thanked you and suggested a long lost/missing appreciation for you, as a woman, recognizing the, as he described, "freedoms hard won by strong women of yesterday"? Particularly in the context of the burka discussion, I am intrigued to realize who these women of yesterday were... the one's responsible for winning you your freedom from wearing the burka?

as I said, I offered a counter suggestion that much of what influences western women's clothing has little to do with the described "women of yesterday"... as it has to do from, "societal influences/norms, from peer-pressure, from manipulative advertising, from controlling fashion trends, from materialism, from sex influenced mass media, from sexual glorification, from 'entertainment' outlets... from commercial sexploitation... from all of that and much more!"

as an aside, do you believe... do you suggest... your own, as you say, "sense of style", is independently arrived at? Subject to no external influences?

[waldo]

just what is my argument? What ‘comparisons and judgments’ do you interpret? What beastly reactions do you speak of? Who is your ANYONE?

how have I setup western women for abuse? What belittling do you interpret? What is my fashion logic, antiquated, twisted or otherwise?

I could answer this and explain just how twisted your notions about western women seem to be but I'm confident MysTerri will give you quite the sound thrashing.

notions? twisted? seem to be!..... don't let your confidence hold you back?

[Muddy]

Well I will give this a shot. The, women who bold who were the first to go to medical school. to run for parliament, to reach for the brass ring in business, to get the vote for women, to serve in the military,to drive a truck for a living if they wish. Yah ,those women! Like my Mom! If women want to change with the fashions thats their business same as men.

[waldo]

Well I will give this a shot. The, women who bold who were the first to go to medical school. to run for parliament, to reach for the brass ring in business, to get the vote for women, to serve in the military,to drive a truck for a living if they wish. Yah ,those women! Like my Mom! If women want to change with the fashions thats their business same as men.

practically speaking, of course, the burka did not factor as a past historical concern for western women... your described, "hard fighting strong women of yesterday" did not need to win any freedoms to negate the non-existent presence of the burka. If your point in (now) highlighting "first forays" is to speak to how those inroads have provided western women with the positioning, influence and independence to make their own clothing choices, separate and exclusive of outside manipulative and controlling influences..... then..... I would suggest you are naive. Are today's societal influences on western women as manipulative, controlling... and oppressive... as what the burka represents? Of course not... but then again, on certain levels.....

there is certainly no shortage of investigation and study behind factors that influence women to conform with the manipulative, controlling... and oppressive... societal influences coming at them. And yes, oppression is not such a misplaced characterization, particularly within the sociocultural context of women's body image. Nothing says it better than a sharp pointed video... as an example, the manufacturer Dove has had a long many years campaign aimed towards emphasizing "inner beauty", towards inspired self-esteem. Whether one views contradictions in this campaign coming from a purveyor of products for women, the series of campaign videos is powerful - one example:

[myata]

I could answer this and explain just how twisted your notions about western women seem to be but I'm confident MysTerri will give you quite the sound thrashing.

What better illustration do we need to see where these "well intended" policies are leading us to? "Strong" western women" against barbaric, week and incapable of making their own choices you know who..

[MysTerri]

practically speaking, of course, the burka did not factor as a past historical concern for western women... your described, "hard fighting strong women of yesterday" did not need to win any freedoms to negate the non-existent presence of the burka. If your point in (now) highlighting "first forays" is to speak to how those inroads have provided western women with the positioning, influence and independence to make their own clothing choices, separate and exclusive of outside manipulative and controlling influences..... then..... I would suggest you are naive. Are today's societal influences on western women as manipulative, controlling... and oppressive... as what the burka represents? Of course not... but then again, on certain levels.....

there is certainly no shortage of investigation and study behind factors that influence women to conform with the manipulative, controlling... and oppressive... societal influences coming at them. And yes, oppression is not such a misplaced characterization, particularly within the sociocultural context of women's body image. Nothing says it better than a sharp pointed video... as an example, the manufacturer Dove has had a long many years campaign aimed towards emphasizing "inner beauty", towards inspired self-esteem. Whether one views contradictions in this campaign coming from a purveyor of products for women, the series of campaign videos is powerful - one example:

What is so right about hiding your face Waldo? What about women walking around looking like banshees, while the men walk around like they on a night-out in Paris, is sane? You still haven't convinced me that hiding a woman's face is in any way something THIS society should adopt as a norm. The thought is scary. What if all women walked around covered head to toe? Would you feel safe Waldo, especially if one of them had trouble driving with the damn thing on? If those women truly love their husbands, then they would help their backward thinking husbands learn to adjust to their new country and their NEW CULTURE.

Maybe it is that these women do not really love their husbands. Many were forced into marriage they did not choose, so maybe that is why they continue to walk around not fitting in, to make their husbands look foolish for being so backward; letting him think that his got it going on when really they are pleased to see his rules so scoffed at by everyone. Maybe it pleases some women who were Burkas to have this reaction. It's the only form of revenge they have. Let's not be naive.

Edited April 20, 2010 by MysTerri

[bloodyminded]

What is so right about hiding your face Waldo? What about women walking around looking like banshees, while the men walk around like they on a night-out in Paris, is sane? You still haven't convince me that hiding a woman's face is in any way something THIS society should adopt as a norm. The thought is scary. What if all women walked around covered head to toe? Would you feel safe Waldo, especially if one of them had trouble driving with the damn thing on? If those women truly love their husbands, then they would help their backward thinking husbands learn to adjust to their new country and their NEW CULTURE.

I believe this is (at least) the second time you have made this charge, so let's be clear: nowhere has Waldo indicated that our society should adopt face-covering as a norm.

In fact, I've yet to hear anyone, anyone at all, indicate that we should.

[MysTerri]

Does this mean i can't be a ghost for Halloween?

Boo!!!

I clicked

[MysTerri]

I believe this is (at least) the second time you have made this charge, so let's be clear: nowhere has Waldo indicated that our society should adopt face-covering as a norm.

In fact, I've yet to hear anyone, anyone at all, indicate that we should.

I never said he did. If we are supposed to accept face veils in this society, what if we all walked around with them on? Would you like it... I mean outside of Halloween?

If you do, I'm wearing one. If it is acceptable, then I'm gonna do it. I think of it as a novelty, exotically sensual. What if the fashion style catches on? How easy would it make you to see a line of cars, not one of them with faces exposed? Or every teller at the bank behind a veil? I'll bet that even if only half the women of Canada wore face veils, it would unnerve you. It would of course lead to some men wanting to do the same thing. Kinda changes the pictures doesn't it? If you wanna convince me that it is okay to walk around with a face veil on, then I AM DOING IT. Let's be fair, if it is okay for some, then let's all do it. How would you feel then?

I think most Western women don't wear face veils because it IS a security risk. It DOES cause public scrutiny. It IS anti-social; that's just the way our society is. You run around wearing veils and you ARE GOING to be unpopular, unless people who think like you & Waldo win and it becomes a fashion statement. Let's truly not be naive.