Battle over soldiers scholarship

[Wilber]

We shouldn't reward or celebrate the willing participation in a venture that is imperialist in nearly every conventional way but name. If someone was coerced into this they should be awarded compensation as opposed to being rewarded.

What the hell makes you think policy is determined at the level of the average soldier. What the hell makes you think someone who decides to serve their country automatically makes them an Imperialist. If they are responsible, you are just as responsible. They serve unconditionally on your behalf, too bad you are unable to appreciate it.

The only time Canada has had conscription was during the two world wars. In WW1 out of 600,000 Canadians only 24,000 conscripts served in France, during WW2 only 2400 conscripts out of over a million Canadians left Canada, hero's all in your book.

[Alta4ever]

We shouldn't reward or celebrate the willing participation in a venture that is imperialist in nearly every conventional way but name. If someone was coerced into this they should be awarded compensation as opposed to being rewarded.

Do you even understand what an imperialistic country is? Judging by the stupidity of your post you don't.

An imperialistic country is one that is in the process of territorial expansion. Have we gained any new provinces lately that I don't know about?

[robert_viera]

As for going to war, old guys pick the fights and young guys do the fighting, that has always been the way and always will.

Number of soldiers killed in Afghanistan under 30 years of age: 88/141 (62.4%)

Number of Members of Parliament under 30 years of age: 2/303 (0.66%)

Number of soldiers killed in Afghanistan 40 years or older: 12/141 (8.5%)

Number of Members of Parliament 40 years or older: 268/303 (88.4%)

Perhaps if young people were better represented in government they wouldn't be so well represented among Canada's casualties.

Edited March 27, 2010 by robert_viera

[Smallc]

Number of Members of Parliament under 30 years of age: 2/303 (0.66%)

Out of how many? Better check your numbers.

[Guest TrueMetis]

Here's a list of the 16 professors and their related field:

Joyce Green, Department of Political Science

J.F. Conway, Department of Sociology and Social Studies

George Buri, Department of History

Emily Eaton, Department of Geography

Jeffery R. Webber, Department of Political Science

David Webster, International Studies

Annette Desmarais, International Studies

Darlene Juschka, Women’s and Gender Studies and Religious Studies

Meredith Rogers Cherland, Faculty of Education

Garson Hunter, Social Work

John W. Warnock, Department of Sociology and Social Studies

William Arnal, Department of Religious Studies

Leesa Streifler, Department of Visual Arts

Carol Schick, Faculty of Education

Ken Montgomery, Faculty of Education

André Magnan, Department of Sociology and Social Studies

The link also has a copy of the letter.

One is actaully a history prof. I'm surprised.

[Wilber]

Number of soldiers killed in Afghanistan under 30 years of age: 88/141 (62.4%)

Number of Members of Parliament under 30 years of age: 2/303 (0.66%)

Number of soldiers killed in Afghanistan 40 years or older: 12/141 (8.5%)

Number of Members of Parliament 40 years or older: 268/303 (88.4%)

Perhaps if young people were better represented in government they wouldn't be so well represented among Canada's casualties.

Tough to run for Parliament from a tent in Kandahar.

[robert_viera]

One is actaully a history prof. I'm surprised.

More than one:

David Webster received his BA from York University while working as a journalist and human rights researcher. He earned his MA and Ph D in History from the University of British Columbia, then went on to teach International Relations at the University of Toronto

http://www.arts.uregina.ca/node/1205

[robert_viera]

Out of how many? Better check your numbers.

5 MPs do not give their age: http://www2.parl.gc.ca/Parlinfo/Lists/ParliamentarianAge.aspx?Language=E&Menu=HOC-Bio&Chamber=03d93c58-f843-49b3-9653-84275c23f3fb

[msj]

The link also has a copy of the letter.

Thanks AW.

48 posts of people spewing nonsense and ad hominem attacks at those darn "professors" and I bet not a single one had read the letter (there were a few good posts, too).

It is much more reasonable to have read the letter in it's entirety rather than the selected quotes from a media report.

[Guest TrueMetis]

Thanks AW.

48 posts of people spewing nonsense and ad hominem attacks at those darn "professors" and I bet not a single one had read the letter (there were a few good posts, too).

It is much more reasonable to have read the letter in it's entirety rather than the selected quotes from a media report.

Really doesn't help at all when university professors don't know what imperialism is, or what militarization is for that matter. They also want the government to pay for all students university costs. Which is unfesible.

I specifically like this bit.

Instead of privileging the children of deceased Canadian soldiers...

University education for the lose of a parent. Sure sounds like a privilge to me. /sarcasm

They also want a public debate on the war in Afghanistan. Where have these guys been? The war in Afghanistan has been debated constantly since we got involved.

[waldo]

Are there so few scarecrows you wish to fabricate strawmen?

that quote from the OP indicates a claim of irresponsibility and improper behaviour, of questioning the capabilities/knowledge of graduate students, of questioning national impact results. Does that quote simply register disapproval or does it raise a challenge to the authors rights to state their concerns?

but why bother reacting to the select media sound bites when you can react to the complete letter:

We write to you as concerned faculty members of the University of Regina, to urge you to withdraw our university immediately from participation in the "Project Hero" scholarship program. This program, which waives tuition and course fees, and provides $1,000 per year to "dependents of Canadian Forces personnel deceased while serving with an active mission", is a glorification of Canadian imperialism in Afghanistan and elsewhere. We do not want our university associated with the political impulse to unquestioning glorification of military action.

"Project Hero" is the brainchild of Kevin Reed, a 42-year-old honorary lieutenant-colonel of an army reserve unit in southwestern Ontario, who has said publicly he was inspired by the work of retired Canadian General Rick Hillier. General Hillier, one of the most controversial figures in the recent military history of this country, was the first to introduce "Project Hero" at a Canadian post-secondary institution, just after he took up the post as Chancellor of Memorial University of Newfoundland. Since then, a number of other public Canadian universities have come on board.

In our view, support for "Project Hero" represents a dangerous cultural turn. It associates "heroism" with the act of military intervention. It erases the space for critical discussion of military policy and practices. In signing on to "Project Hero", the university is implicated in the disturbing construction of the war in Afghanistan by Western military- and state-elites as the "good war" of our epoch. We insist that our university not be connected with the increasing militarization of Canadian society and politics.

The majority of young adults in Canada find it increasingly difficult to pay for their education. If they do make it to university, they rack up massive student debts which burden them for years. Instead of privileging the children of deceased Canadian soldiers, we suggest that our administration demand all levels of government provide funding sufficient for universal qualified access to post-secondary education.

The University of Regina has always been closely tied to our Saskatchewan community, and the strategic plan, mâmawohkamâtowin, means "co-operation; working together towards common goals". We do not think that "Project Hero" is a common goal chosen by those of us who work in the University; it is not drawn from the values of this institution. We think it is incompatible with our understanding of the role of public education, or with decisions made by a process of collegial governance.

In addition to withdrawing from "Project Hero", we think the issues we raise should be publicly debated. We are calling on the U of R administration hold a public forum on the war in Afghanistan, and Canadian imperialism more generally, at which the issues we raise can be debated. This forum should be open to all; it should take place this semester, before exams, as "Project Hero" is set to start at U of R in September 2010.

To summarize, we are calling for:

(1) The immediate withdrawal of our university from "Project Hero".

(2) An institutional deployment of public pressure on both orders of government to provide immediate funding sufficient for universal access to post-secondary education.

(3) A public forum on the war in Afghanistan and Canadian imperialism more generally to be held this semester before exams begin.

(emphasis added by waldo)

[waldo]

and just what does the name "Project Hero" evoke for someone strongly opposed to the military/war? What's wrong they say... don't you support the troops! In this particular case we have a non-political institution, a university, somewhat arbitrarily making a decision that, obviously, wasn't put to it's faculty base prior to announcement.

again, is there a special status simply by virtue of being in the military? Or is it the loss of life sacrifice aspect... and if so... wouldn't monies to military families be better allocated by, say... Veteran Affairs? What about other job categories where loss of life is possible... should universities offer scholarships to the families of police officers or firemen killed while on the job? For these professors, it would appear, they draw a strong linkage between awards assigned by association to the military and, by extension, special class distinction for those they hold strong reservations toward.

Who cares what it evokes for them, they won't get off their asses and put them selves in harms way for their fellow citizens, they just complain about those who do. Yes, the loss of life and sacrifice aspect does give them a special status in society, along with police and firefighters it makes them unique members of a rather small portion of society.

yours is a partial answer... you indicate a like special status for police and firefighters... but you don't state whether or not it is the role of universities to award scholarships to families of police and firefighters killed on the job. Is it? And why stop with just military, police and firefighters? How about physicians, nurses, or paramedics that might die responding to medical emergencies? Any other job categories you'd like universities to also include... those you refer to as, "putting themselves in harms way for their fellow citizens"?

[Guest American Woman]

Pathetic, doesn't say much about the quality of educators at that institution, or should I say, it says a lot.

It's unfair to judge and make comments about the "quality of educators at that institution" when the 16 professors in question constitute less than 10% of the faculty.

I disagree with what they are trying to do, trying to take away scholarships from deserving people, and I disagree with their take on "Canadian imperialism," but to make this about "the educators" is not much better when over 90% of the educators are not involved.

This is really unsurprising. Anyone who's been attended a Canadian university recently (or is currently enrolled) will no doubt feel the leftism on campus. It's just the culture of universities. How can it be changed? I don't know. Is it a big problem? Yes, it is.

Again, when it's less than 10% of the professors, to make this about "leftism on campus," to describe it as "the culture of universities" is totally off base. It's one thing to disagree with the 16 professors at one university, it's quite another to make it about all educators, all universities.

Although I am all for scholerships for the children of Canadian soldiers killed in combat or on any risky mission , I am not so sure sending their youngsters into harms way by way of these Professors who bastardize history is such a good idea.

I would suggest anyone who feels strongly about it should make sure they don't get any of these professors for their classes. Boycotting the professors' classes seems like a good idea to me.

None of these professors ever served and have no knowledge of how they recieved the right to blather such nonsence.

Could you provide a link to cite your claim that none of them have ever served? And are you saying no one who has served has a right to an opinion regarding the military/war? Because that would include a lot of people who totally support the troops, too. In fact, it would mean the majority of people have no right to an opinion.

Imperialism indeed!

I can't figure out where the charge of "Canadian imperialism" was coming from. That seems to be totally off-base.

Most likely English. English is the chosen field of study of people who have never known want or need and have no concept of the idea of having insufficient funds to support themselves, it's a subject generally taken by children who grow up in the mushiest of upper middle class liberal homes. People who have had challenges in life, people who want challenges in life, certainly don't choose English as their major.

It would appear you are wrong.

Some of the responses in this thread are quite unbelievable and have nothing to do with the 16 professors and the issue at hand.

Again, I disagree with the 16 professors, but as some stated, they have a right to their opinion and to state their opinion. I don't think they have the right to try to take scholarships away from students. I can't imagine any educator trying to limit the money that a student is given in an effort to further their education, and I would be curious to know what the University of Regina's reaction has been to this.* Again, I would hope students strongly avoid signing up for their classes and insist on getting into another professor's class, to the point where these professors feel the heat.

*Edited to answer my own question:

The administration at the University of Regina has no plans to cancel Project Hero.

Edited March 27, 2010 by American Woman

[Guest American Woman]

Project Hero also provides $1,000 cash for qualified university applicants from those military families.

Hardly what i'd call free education, whats 1000.00 get you in Unversity, would it even cover the cost of your books...And while any donation is well worth the ink it takes to apply, is this 1000 dollar donation really worth all the effort these 16 professors took to denounce it...

It's free tuition for four years along with the $1000 for books, etc., so room and board would evidently be at the student's expense, but I hope the program makes it possible for some dependents of fallen troops to attend university when they otherwise wouldn't be able to. Sounds like a wonderful program to me.

Under the program, which the school launched several weeks ago, children of members of the military who died while on active duty receive free tuition for four years, as well as $1,000 for books.

link

It's good to know that the objection didn't have any effect and the program will continue as planned.

[eyeball]

What the hell makes you think policy is determined at the level of the average soldier. What the hell makes you think someone who decides to serve their country automatically makes them an Imperialist. If they are responsible, you are just as responsible. They serve unconditionally on your behalf, too bad you are unable to appreciate it.

I know I'm responsible and I'm unable to appreciate it because I'm ashamed of it.

[eyeball]

They also want a public debate on the war in Afghanistan. Where have these guys been? The war in Afghanistan has been debated constantly since we got involved.

Yeah and a real quality debate it's been too. Just about all I've heard from the hawks is a near constant denigration of anyone who deigned to question the wisdom of wading into this quagmire.

[Wilber]

I know I'm responsible and I'm unable to appreciate it because I'm ashamed of it.

That's our problem, don't take it out on people who serve this country in spite of having no control over its policies.

[eyeball]

That's our problem, don't take it out on people who serve this country in spite of having no control over its policies.

I've seen one too many pictures of soldiers and politicians rallying around their support for one another and this goddamn war to believe that anymore.

[Wilber]

I've seen one too many pictures of soldiers and politicians rallying around their support for one another and this goddamn war to believe that anymore.

But you would penalize a volunteer private soldier's kids because of the actions of politicians and generals.

[Keepitsimple]

Yesterday, on CTV Power Play, one of the "professors" from U of R was being interviewed, supposedly to defend the letter he co-signed. What a scary looking fellow.....long dishevelled hair, constantly blinking.....in all seriousness, this fellow looked like he should be institutionalized. I believe his name was Garfield Hunter. Tom Clark asked him repeatly about what he meant by imperialism and why he though Project Hero was a bad idea. This only semi-literate clown never even came close to defending ANYTHING in the letter - he just kept spouting off about how Project Hero should be fully funded by the Military and Project Hero was not what it seemed......and on and on without addressing any of the points in the letter - and called Rick Hillier a War Criminal.....all the while making it clear that NO parent should ever want their son or daughter to be "taught" by a buffoon like this guy. Scary......in OUR universities. I certainly hope he was not representative of the intellectualism at U of R.

Just found it - here's the link to Power Play. Watch it - it's right at the start of the show.....and judge how scary this guy is - AT ONE OF OUR UNIVERSITIES - AS A "PROFESSOR"

Link: http://watch.ctv.ca/news/power-play/march-26/#clip281602

Edited March 27, 2010 by Keepitsimple

[eyeball]

But you would penalize a volunteer private soldier's kids because of the actions of politicians and generals.

No, but I wouldn't reward them either. I'd stop wasting money on our overseas military adventures and extend free tuition to everyone.

[Jerry J. Fortin]

No, but I wouldn't reward them either. I'd stop wasting money on our overseas military adventures and extend free tuition to everyone.

Good call!

[Keepitsimple]

what? You would deny their free speech?

perhaps... perhaps... they are a group that makes a distinction between government sanctioning of the military/war and their own institution, effectively, on it's own initiative, recognizing and/or sanctioning military action by offering awards to military families. Is it the element of personal sacrifice that draws the quick emotional response from some of the... usual MLW suspects... and if so, would the debatable award be better offered from the effective military/war sanctioning body itself - the government?

Waldo - can you simply never take a position on anything - only criticize others? Of course it is their right to write a letter. But do you agree with it or not? That's the thrust of this thread. Over 75 educational institutions have signed on to Project Hero and these "professors" at U of R are the only ones to spout this nonsense (my free speech rights). One of them, supposedly representing this bright little group, was intyerviewed on Power Play. Have a loisten - it's right at the start of the program. But once again Waldo - do you agree with their letter - or not? Or will you continue with your usual inane, senseless bleatings?

Link: http://watch.ctv.ca/news/power-play/march-26/#clip281602

[Guest American Woman]

Just found it - here's the link to Power Play. Watch it - it's right at the start of the show.....and judge how scary this guy is - AT ONE OF OUR UNIVERSITIES - AS A "PROFESSOR"

Link: http://watch.ctv.ca/news/power-play/march-26/#clip281602

His name is Garson Hunter, and you're correct. He does not address the issues raised in the letter at all. He just (annoyingly) keeps repeating that there's already legislation providing free tuition to the dependents of fallen soldiers. He never once addresses the "imperialism" claim, or anything else in the letter, although he was asked to over and over again. Makes one wonder if he's the best representative of the 16 that CTV could come up with.

However, he's not "scary" in the least, and he says he's served in the military and has a medal for peacekeeping, thus refuting the claim made earlier by another poster that "none of these professors ever served."

Edited March 27, 2010 by American Woman

[waldo]

Yesterday, on CTV Power Play, one of the "professors" from U of R was being interviewed, supposedly to defend the letter he wrote. What a scary looking fellow.....long dishevelled hair, constantly blinking.....in all seriousness, this fellow looked like he should be institutionalized. I believe his name was Garfield Nelson. Tom Clark asked him repeatly about what he meant by imperialism and why he though Project Hero was a bad idea. This only semi-literate clown never even came close to defending ANYTHING in the letter - he just kept spouting off about how Project Hero should be fully funded by the Military and Project Hero was not what it seemed......and on and on without addressing any of the points in the letter.....all the while making it clear that NO parent should ever want their son or daughter to be "taught" by a buffoon like this guy. Scary......in OUR universities. I certainly hope he was not representative of the intellectualism at U of R.

let's see... you used, "scary", "dishevelled", "blinking", "institutionalized", "semi-literate", "clown", "buffoon". Although this follows in line with your typical posting approach/style, do you have anything to say about the actual issue itself?

Simple, apparently this "Project Hero" program is in fact a duplicate of an existing government funding outlet available to families of military killed in active duty... or non-active duty. I believe the Project Hero spokesperson's comment when asked about that duplication, was a somewhat brief acknowledgment along the lines, "I believe that may be so".

since Wilber doesn't have the wherewithal to respond, perhaps you could take up for him and respond to questions concerning the role of universities in also providing awards to families of police, firefighters, physicians, nurses or paramedics killed while on the job?

yours is a partial answer... you indicate a like special status for police and firefighters... but you don't state whether or not it is the role of universities to award scholarships to families of police and firefighters killed on the job. Is it? And why stop with just military, police and firefighters? How about physicians, nurses, or paramedics that might die responding to medical emergencies? Any other job categories you'd like universities to also include... those you refer to as, "putting themselves in harms way for their fellow citizens"?