SW Ontario

[Topaz]

Yes, the Green Tech. has hit this province, especially, in the SW, where turbines and solar panels are starting to be part of the view. Some of us like it, some of us don't and only time will tell if this is good for the pocket and the environment. I do know when they started to put them up around here, I saw a $8.00 increase in the hydro bill. Seems strange that I look out my window and see the Turbines that suppose help out with hydro cost and yet see the hydro go up. Does anyone have any views on this tech.? http://www.lfpress.com/news/london/2010/03/19/13293041.html#/news/london/2010/03/19/pf-13293966.html

[M.Dancer]

Yes...we are all paying more to feel good. They cannot raise money in the normal sense because they can't pay back....so the government is paying to have higher cost generation which is a sop to the green lobby....and death to migratory fowl.

Watch our rates climb, efficiancy fall and feathers ebverywhere.

[Shakeyhands]

It's a huge investment... we'll see if it pays dividends down the road.

[Moonbox]

From what I know (which isn't a lot) the wind turbines appear cost effective in the long term. Solar isn't anywhere near being cost efficient so that's another story.

[Shwa]

Yes, the Green Tech. has hit this province, especially, in the SW, where turbines and solar panels are starting to be part of the view. Some of us like it, some of us don't and only time will tell if this is good for the pocket and the environment. I do know when they started to put them up around here, I saw a $8.00 increase in the hydro bill. Seems strange that I look out my window and see the Turbines that suppose help out with hydro cost and yet see the hydro go up. Does anyone have any views on this tech.?

There is a huge wind farm just outside of Arthur, ON. Very cool.

Your bill went up 8$? Hmmmm...

If you conserve your household electricity, go green and reduce your needs, how are the poor, struggling hydro companies supposed to meet their profit margins? Multiply this conservation by millions - that represents a significant loss. I mean, there are executive bonuses to pay, payments to be made to former CEO's and generous salaries and benefits to employees. And lets not forget the actual cost of energy that has to be bought when we exceed our planned usage requirements. I mean, all those 3500 sq foot houses in Markham must be heated in the winter and cooled in the summer.

[Wild Bill]

Seems strange that I look out my window and see the Turbines that suppose help out with hydro cost and yet see the hydro go up.

Like most folks, you are assuming that the goal is to reduce our hydro bills. Sez who? The goal is to get votes for McGuinty!

These schemes are never driven by techies but rather by politicians. They have two very different aims. That's why we always see such huge technical holes in these plans. They never seem to work like they said they would. That's because the way they implemented them they COULDN'T work like they said they would!

There was a time when we were told that the nuclear power plants would give us cheap power for a zillion years! A techie would have agreed. Build them right and they certainly could! It was politicians who used the projects as major political slush funds for themselves and their friends. That's where all the money went. Now the plants are getting old. They may not be around much longer. We have over 30 Billion dollars of debt from using them that we are still all paying off each month on our hydro bills.

Yet some people blame nuclear power! Talk about letting politicians off the hook! Other countries build reactors and seem to run them profitably. It's obvious that WE did something wrong!

It doesn't matter what government scheme for power they come up with. We will NOT see any savings as individual ratepayers! Just as with gasoline, if too many people get gas miser cars the price of gas goes up to cover our savings.

We are taxed until we scream. As things change the powers that be tweak the "scream point", that's all. Those of us old enough to remember recall when we changed over to unleaded gasoline, "to save the environment"! Unleaded gas cost us a few pennies extra. Any techie knew this was a rip! Lead was an ADDITIVE to gasoline! How could it be more expensive to NOT put it in!

Back in the 80's we began to see more diesel cars on the road. They saved us BIG TIME! Diesel was half the price of regular gas and the engines got much better mileage.

Suddenly, the price of diesel shot up to nearly the price of regular. Why? Diesel fuel requires much less refining than regular gasoline. It's much cheaper to make. Why did the price rise? To keep us gouged for the same amount of money if we switched to diesel.

Every one wants a piece of us. Governments are no exception. They run on taxing us for gas, electricity or whatever. They want our votes for going "green" but they don't want to lose any tax revenue.

For that matter, the Greens have never said they would give us a break either! All their talk is about saving the planet, not helping to ensure poor Joe taxpayer has a bit more in his pocket to buy his family a bigger turkey come Christmas.

Hell, they're on the side of the turkeys!

If you want to really save money on energy, there's only one safe way to do it. You have to build your own wind, solar and whatever installation and DON"T have anything to do with any government programs! Sure McGuinty will pay you 80 cents per kilowatt today for feeding your solar power back to the grid. How long will he be able to afford to pay such a ridiculously high amount? If it gets too expensive for him, what's to stop him or whoever is in power from canceling the deal and leaving you trying to pay off your installation without it?

The problem is that this just isn't possible yet for the average homeowner. He just doesn't know how! Still, there are techies out there that have been quietly getting off the grid. They can figure out how to build their own generators and don't need to get an "easy" package from WalMart. They've learned how to pay NOTHING for heating and electricity! It's not easy and there's still some initial costs. It's also FAR harder to do with an older home than with a new one built from scratch!

Still, it is happening, slowly but surely. If you wait for the government or the Greens to save you, you'll be paying out till your dying day.

Edited March 24, 2010 by Wild Bill

[fellowtraveller]

The problem is far more than just cost per khw, it is that most green sources simply cannot be a significant part of the overall power supply.

Our industrial society must have a large and dead reliable supply of power. If you insert a wind farm into the grid as part of primary supply, you must also have an equal amount of generative capacity created from nuclear, coal, natural gas or hydro. There is no escaping this at this time, and more than doubles the capital cost of typical green generation. Other green solutions like tidal or wave power don't have the same issue. The system must be geared to maximum demand, both for generation and transmission. There are no short cuts.

We need tech solutioon that address storage of power for wind and solar. When that is resolved, they will be viable and will expand mightily.

[madmax]

This is great news for South Korea

[Topaz]

There is a very large project being talked about down around Kingville, On on Lake Erie and now the companies want to put over 700 turbines in the lake. So who is getting rich over these projects? http://www.windsorstar.com/news/Kingsville+residents+come+droves+turbines/2735275/story.html

[Wild Bill]

There is a very large project being talked about down around Kingville, On on Lake Erie and now the companies want to put over 700 turbines in the lake. So who is getting rich over these projects? http://www.windsorstar.com/news/Kingsville+residents+come+droves+turbines/2735275/story.html

Most people don't understand how wind power works. However, they love the sound of it! It sounds so "green" and whispers "Save the Planet!"

What they don't understand is that because wind power is only there when the wind blows, you can't count on it. So you HAVE to build some more conventional source like a hydro dam or coal/gas burning generator! It has to be available to pick up the slack when your wind turbine isn't moving. Otherwise you only have that power when the wind blows. If you're in an iron lung running on electricity and the wind stops you have to get your power from somewhere or you will die!

Politicians like McGuinty know that people don't understand how this works. They set up schemes where if someone puts up a wind turbine they will pay them a price far higher per kilowatt/hour than regular electricity. People read this in the paper and think "Wow! McGuinty is doing a great job! He's saving the planet! I'm going to vote for him!"

Nobody notices that someone has to build those backup generators. Who's going to pay for them?

That's right! You and me and all the other tax payers! Plus, we pay that super high rate for the wind electricity! Double whammy!

What a con!

[AngusThermopyle]

Excellent first post Bill.

Currently I'm starting my project to get our house off the grid. It actually can be done rather inexpensively if you do some research and build your own panels and turbine. This actually isn't all that difficult and for the most part can be done with relative ease, the problems I believe lie in the fact that many people don't believe they can do it. That it requires some massive amount of technical knowledge, it doesn't.

My goal is to become as self sufficient as possible within practical means. So far we've managed to reduce our reliance on commercially produced fresh produce significantly, we can grow year round now. Next is to kick the blood sucking energy providers in the gonads and become energy independant. I have planned this to take far less time than the produce project took me.

[Wild Bill]

Excellent first post Bill.

Currently I'm starting my project to get our house off the grid. It actually can be done rather inexpensively if you do some research and build your own panels and turbine. This actually isn't all that difficult and for the most part can be done with relative ease, the problems I believe lie in the fact that many people don't believe they can do it. That it requires some massive amount of technical knowledge, it doesn't.

My goal is to become as self sufficient as possible within practical means. So far we've managed to reduce our reliance on commercially produced fresh produce significantly, we can grow year round now. Next is to kick the blood sucking energy providers in the gonads and become energy independant. I have planned this to take far less time than the produce project took me.

There are a LOT of sites on the web, Angus! However, here's one that perhaps you didn't already know about:

http://www.thebackshed.com/Windmill/default.asp

It will show you how to make windmill blades with a jig and a chainsaw, also there's a link to a homemade 1200 watt wind turbine on there somewhere.

As always, the big problem is a battery sink. Car batteries are no good. You need deep discharge types. That means maybe tow motor batteries or electric golf cart units. Often you can get these for free! When they get old they no longer hold as much of a charge. Service shops will give them to you rather than have the trouble of disposal themselves, since they are a "hazardous product". There are electronic units you can buy or build called "desulphinators" that will re-condition such batteries.

Another approach is compressed air! Have a windmill operate a compressor. Any steam engine will run just fine on compressed air. That engine can drive a generator.

No doubt you've got your own ideas. Good luck and have fun!

[AngusThermopyle]

There are a LOT of sites on the web, Angus! However, here's one that perhaps you didn't already know about:

http://www.thebackshed.com/Windmill/default.asp

It will show you how to make windmill blades with a jig and a chainsaw, also there's a link to a homemade 1200 watt wind turbine on there somewhere.

As always, the big problem is a battery sink. Car batteries are no good. You need deep discharge types. That means maybe tow motor batteries or electric golf cart units. Often you can get these for free! When they get old they no longer hold as much of a charge. Service shops will give them to you rather than have the trouble of disposal themselves, since they are a "hazardous product". There are electronic units you can buy or build called "desulphinators" that will re-condition such batteries.

Another approach is compressed air! Have a windmill operate a compressor. Any steam engine will run just fine on compressed air. That engine can drive a generator.

No doubt you've got your own ideas. Good luck and have fun!

Actually Bill, for the most part thats pretty much what I'm talking about. With the exception of the compressed air idea. As you said the batteries can be an expense, but as you also said, these can be obtained for no cost. I first started to think about this when I was still out in Alberta and saw a few homes equipped this way. So I started to do a little research and realized it wasn't the scary technological boogeyman many beleive it is.

In keeping with the times I can also drastically reduce my household "Carbon Footprint" while I save money. In the same way having the ability to grow fresh produce on a limited basis year round grants similar benefits. The projects dovetail quite nicely actually as my HID lights will no longer draw from the grid either. Of course the HID's I use are only neccesary during the winter. Another benefit is that its huge fun and very satisfying to do this stuff.

[Michael Hardner]

There are electronic units you can buy or build called "desulphinators" that will re-condition such batteries.

Hey there WB - desulphators is what they're called.

[Bonam]

We need tech solutioon that address storage of power for wind and solar. When that is resolved, they will be viable and will expand mightily.

Such a solution already exists, though it is not one of the ones mentioned so far in this thread.

Batteries are completely impractical for storing the amounts of energy needed for distribution in the power grid. They simply are orders of magnitude off and there is no viable way to get them to where they'd need to be. Batteries are toxic and expensive and lose performance as they are charged and discharged. Batteries that could store the energy we are talking about (that's at least in the Tera Joule range) simply do not exist.

Compressed air is also a poor solution. This is because of the efficiency losses that happen when you compress and then uncompress air. At best, these can be done at an efficiency approaching that of ideal thermodynamic processes, which themselves have a limited efficiency. Moreover pressure vessels of the size and strength needed to store Terajoules of energy would be incredibly expensive and also extremely dangerous.

There is only one technically viable way of storing energy on the scale that is needed for the main power grid without major losses. That is pumping water up hill at a hydroelectric dam. This kind of energy storage system can operate in the 90+ % efficiency range and can store pretty much arbitrary amounts of energy (limited only by the size of the reservoir at the top of the dam). This method of energy storage is already in use pretty much wherever hydroelectric facilities exist.

Edited April 9, 2010 by Bonam

[Wild Bill]

Batteries are completely impractical for storing the amounts of energy needed for distribution in the power grid. They simply are orders of magnitude off and there is no viable way to get them to where they'd need to be. Batteries are toxic and expensive and lose performance as they are charged and discharged. Batteries that could store the energy we are talking about (that's at least in the Tera Joule range) simply do not exist.

Compressed air is also a poor solution. This is because of the efficiency losses that happen when you compress and then uncompress air. At best, these can be done at an efficiency approaching that of ideal thermodynamic processes, which themselves have a limited efficiency. Moreover pressure vessels of the size and strength needed to store Terajoules of energy would be incredibly expensive and also extremely dangerous.

There is only one technically viable way of storing energy on the scale that is needed for the main power grid without major losses. That is pumping water up hill at a hydroelectric dam. This kind of energy storage system can operate in the 90+ % efficiency range and can store pretty much arbitrary amounts of energy (limited only by the size of the reservoir at the top of the dam). This method of energy storage is already in use pretty much wherever hydroelectric facilities exist.

No argument, Mr. B! However, we weren't talking about solutions for the grid! That's McGuinty's problem! Rather, we were talking about getting totally away from the grid, leaving utility bills that include fixed charges for transmission lines and retiring the stranded debt from all the Nuclear Ontario patronage waste behind.

So deep cycle golf cart or tow motor batteries can be quite practical for the individual user, along with compressed air. Or, as you reminded us, water can be pumped up into a tank to achieve enough "fall" to power a turbine.

As I posted before, these aren't always solutions for everyone's situation but we shouldn't be petty and resent those who DO manage to get "over the wall" and free!

[Wild Bill]

Hey there WB - desulphators is what they're called.

Yep! Those too!

[Bonam]

No argument, Mr. B! However, we weren't talking about solutions for the grid! That's McGuinty's problem!

You're right. My reply was more in response to fellowtraveller's post, who was talking about storage solutions for the grid.

Rather, we were talking about getting totally away from the grid, leaving utility bills that include fixed charges for transmission lines and retiring the stranded debt from all the Nuclear Ontario patronage waste behind.

So deep cycle golf cart or tow motor batteries can be quite practical for the individual user, along with compressed air. Or, as you reminded us, water can be pumped up into a tank to achieve enough "fall" to power a turbine.

As I posted before, these aren't always solutions for everyone's situation but we shouldn't be petty and resent those who DO manage to get "over the wall" and free!

Agreed, there are great ways to make yourself energy independent (if you own property with adequate wind and/or sun). I actually built a solar thermal system capable of generating a few kW of power myself, as part of a project back in my undergrad. Was quite cheap and simple really, and more efficient than solar cells.

[Wild Bill]

You're right. My reply was more in response to fellowtraveller's post, who was talking about storage solutions for the grid.

Agreed, there are great ways to make yourself energy independent (if you own property with adequate wind and/or sun). I actually built a solar thermal system capable of generating a few kW of power myself, as part of a project back in my undergrad. Was quite cheap and simple really, and more efficient than solar cells.

Don't tease! Tell us more!

[AngusThermopyle]

Yes, please do tell more about this Thermal system.

Although getting off the grid would be the short term goal, if enough people were to do it then I would think it would help with the overall energy supply/demand problem. One would also think that some very promissing buisness opportunities would present themselves if one could develope a cost effective system to get others off the grid as well.

Given the way people are I expect someone will pop up on the forum and tell me what a bad heathen un-Canadian Canadian I am for finding ways to avoid paying taxes on energy. I'm already beating the taxes on produce as it is, how un-Canadian of me.

[Argus]

Don't tease! Tell us more!

Why do you care? If a significant number of people actually do remove themselves from the grid the government will simply find other ways of taxing you.

The government in Ottawa encouraged people to conserve water. People conserved water. Now as a result, Ottawa's water works needs more money so it's talking about changing the rules. The people who conserve water will no longer really save anything. They'll wind up being charged whether they use it or not.

[Bonam]

Yes, please do tell more about this Thermal system.

I just checked with the sponsor and turns out I'm not really allowed to say too much about it. The basic idea though was using a solar concentrator (parabolic mirror) to heat up water in a pressurized system through a heat exchanger. The heated water (which because it was pressurized, could be at a temperature greater than 100 C) could be used for direct thermal applications (hot water, hydronic heating), as well as for electrical power generation (if the system were to be scaled up). The details were mainly to do with the control system to make it all automatic across a range of weather conditions.

[Michael Hardner]

Why do you care? If a significant number of people actually do remove themselves from the grid the government will simply find other ways of taxing you.

The government in Ottawa encouraged people to conserve water. People conserved water. Now as a result, Ottawa's water works needs more money so it's talking about changing the rules. The people who conserve water will no longer really save anything. They'll wind up being charged whether they use it or not.

Stephen Harper is the current PM - don't you think he wants to cut taxes ?

[M.Dancer]

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/opinions/welcome-to-the-wacky-world-of-green-power/article1529760/

The solar panel is the ideal modern status symbol, which signifies both wealth and superiority, even if it’s perfectly useless,” writes Mr. Monbiot. “Seldom has there been a bigger public rip-off.”

Now we know why Jack (fighting bravely) Layton's house has one.

[BrassTax]

I no longer buy into this "greening". It's simply isn't feasible or efficient enough to generate power with wind or solar, at the moment. we create a larger energy deficit in the manufacture and shipment of solar panels that will take much longer to recover and even then, these will become far obsolete. With the recent developments in nuclear energy with:CANDU fuel recovery and also the future prospect of Thorium It only makes sense to fund the construction and further research into nuclear energy.