CP Learns that CSIS interrogated tortured Afghan Detainees

[waldo]

Conservative partisans are very quick to diminish any suggestion of torture, or degrees of torture, by simply labeling it as nothing more than a 'shoe throwing'. Certainly, the 'shoe throw' is an off-the-cuff dismissal - one very easily made when the government in question, the Harper Conservative government, refuses to release related information to Parliament.

It was a size 8 topsider

allrightee - always good to have someone on the inside, like you! So... it's a case closed then - why not have your team simply come forward and release the information to Parliament... confirm that size 8 topsider and everyone can get on with it then. Does your inside privilege allow you to suggest when that information will be released by the Harper Conservatives?

[Born Free]

Worse than being beheaded?

....point is the Taliban do not take prisoners....beyond taking them and killimh them that is.

Such unenlightened silliness....

Canada is a signatory of the Geneva Conventions and thus are obliged to uphold them.

Why you ask should we ensure that detainees are treated humanely.....?

One – We believe that we are a humane culture and that by signing the Geneva Convention we are obligated to follow that rule of law. Occupying the moral high ground requires some effort.

Two – It makes it easier for our government officials to discuss human rights issues with foreign governments, particularly as they apply to detained Canadians.

Three – Abused detainees who were not particularly sympathetic to the Taliban faction will likely remuster to the Taliban and take some folks within their extended family and tribe with them. Those who were keen Taliban won’t likely have any useful attitude adjustment although abuse will no doubt add to their enthusiasm. If there is a “hearts and minds” effort in progress, the abuse of Afghans by Afghans is clearly counterproductive.

Four – An enemy who knows that surrender means torture is more likely to fight than surrender. Live prisoners are better than enemies who won’t ever give up and would rather fight to the death. Generals should know this and act accordingly.

Five – Negotiating the future of any NATO soldiers captured by the Taliban will not be enhanced by a record of detainee abuse by the NATO supported Afghan government.

Six – Detainee abuse is simply unprofessional. If we say we don’t do it we need to ensure that it does not happen to people we detain.

Edited March 8, 2010 by Born Free

[Mr.Canada]

Why have the left started calling them "detainees"? Call them what they are, POW's.

There is no proof of Canada doing anyting wrong, so this is just a witch hunt, nothing more. Throw a bunch of crap against the wall and see what sticks. Common ploy of the socialist agenda.

[Born Free]

Why have the left started calling them "detainees"? Call them what they are, POW's.

There is no proof of Canada doing anyting wrong, so this is just a witch hunt, nothing more. Throw a bunch of crap against the wall and see what sticks. Common ploy of the socialist agenda.

If thats the best you have to offer....so be it. They are often refered to as detainees because until they are actually accused of something, they are detainees. Not all of the prisoners are POW's. Some of them are citizens accused of something because another prisoner named them after being tortured.....if you get the idea...

[Topaz]

Link...?

Here's the link http://www.icrc.org/ihl.nsf/7c4d08d9b287a42141256739003e636b/6fef854a3517b75ac125641e004a9e68

[Jerry J. Fortin]

.... you mean like changing the lyrics of Oh Canada?

Not at all. I was thinking of a more domestically focused form of leadership. A leader to work the way through the concepts of free trade and macro-economics in a manner that will provide the greatest benefit to citizens.

[Born Free]

Not at all. I was thinking of a more domestically focused form of leadership. A leader to work the way through the concepts of free trade and macro-economics in a manner that will provide the greatest benefit to citizens.

That's not leadership. Thats a bunch of skills. Management is employing the right people to perform those skills. Leadership is getting the people to execute those skills to the very best of their ability.

The concepts of Free Trade is not revolutionary and macro economics experts are plentiful.

However, putting Oh Canada on the domestic agenda was a resounding demonstration of incredible leadership and foresight.

[Alta4ever]

They're not genocidal. Sorry.

So killing masses of those opposed to your ideology or may be a poltical threat is ok as long as it isn't genocide.

I'm glad you posted this I understand now that you are no better then Stalin or Mao.

[Alta4ever]

Your last statement is so clueless that I can't even be bothered with a response...

Someone who is truly ignorant of histories lessons.

[Alta4ever]

Like I said, if you were beaten with a shoe in a Canadian jail, you'd sue for millions and have the charges thrown out. Why should you be afforded those rights and not an Afghan? After all, those rights we claim are universal. So, if we're not fighting for that then what are we fighting for?

We can't assert our rights on a sovereign nation and have no moral authority to do so. Isn't that the argument from the left on why we shouldn't be in Afghanistan. So why are they now making the argument that is contrary to their own argument?

[Born Free]

So your contention is that Canada's Armed Forces knowingly handed over POW's who were killing Canadian soldiers and they got smacked around a little by the Afgans?

Ok fine. What do you base this accusation on? Do you have some proof?

You should step back ..... take a deep breath and as Harper would do....recalibrate.

If you need to have Canada's international responsibilities explained to you with respect to the treatment of prisoners/detainees/civilians, etc, then just ask. I will give you all the details and perhaps you just might not need to recalibrate so often.

Edited March 8, 2010 by Born Free

[nicky10013]

So killing masses of those opposed to your ideology or may be a poltical threat is ok as long as it isn't genocide.

I'm glad you posted this I understand now that you are no better then Stalin or Mao.

Huh? Never did I say it was ok. All I said is it wasn't genocide. That doesn't mean I support mass repression. Sorry, no Mao or Stalin here.

[nicky10013]

We can't assert our rights on a sovereign nation and have no moral authority to do so. Isn't that the argument from the left on why we shouldn't be in Afghanistan. So why are they now making the argument that is contrary to their own argument?

We can't impose our laws on them. We can abide by them overseas and treat people as we would like to be treated.

[nicky10013]

Why have the left started calling them "detainees"? Call them what they are, POW's.

There is no proof of Canada doing anyting wrong, so this is just a witch hunt, nothing more. Throw a bunch of crap against the wall and see what sticks. Common ploy of the socialist agenda.

The people who want more info are just looking for that. It isn't a witch hunt at all. If this was the Liberals (and you and yoru friends are trying desperately to turn it into just that) you'd be even more vitriolic.

You've not only run completely out of ideas. you pretty much completely copied what I said about you and threw it back at us. Are you really that pathetic?

What I said before:

You've run out of arguments. You threw the entire military under the bus to try and keep upright and now you're lashing out by throwing all these different labels out there hoping something sticks to the wall because you've clearly got nothing else.

What's your definition of communism? Or are you just using that word, without knowing what it means, to try and discredit my argument with random hearsay? That's more of a communist tactic than what I've been doing.

[Alta4ever]

Huh? Never did I say it was ok. All I said is it wasn't genocide. That doesn't mean I support mass repression. Sorry, no Mao or Stalin here.

Stalin and Mao did more then mass suppression their death tolls are larger then that of Hitler.

I said They do not need a huge army to do what hitler did, just few canisters of VX.

You said They're not genocidal. Sorry.

Shady said So mass graves don't equal genocide?

You said No, no they don't. There are common factors in genocide for it to be determined as such.

(a) Killing members of the group;

( Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;

© Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;

(d) Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;

(e) Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.

Shady said

Rights Group Tells of Taliban Massacres

Victims have been mostly people of the Hazara ethnic group, who are largely Shiite Muslims, the rights organization said. The Taliban, Islamic militants who control most of the country, are Sunni Muslims and mostly ethnic Pathans.

Link

Stop defending genocide.

You said Who was defending genocide? You talk about leftist hyperbole, that in itself is probably the worst hyperbole on this board. I wasn't aware of any massacres nor were most here. Nor is this report actually confirmed.

So what we see here is that you are more concerned that someone may have been hit with a shoe.

Then those that may have been killed for political or genocide matters.

You seem to live in this fairly land where these types will do no wrong.

I have news for you these people are no better then Chemical Ali, or those that have used them in the past.

I have not seen you even begin to fathom what these people are capable of and seem to content to defend them even though history shows a different record

Some light reading material that you might find enlightening

The Lion, the Fox and the Eagle

Carol Off

War of Nerves:

Chemical Warfare from World War I to Al-Qaeda

By Jonathan B. Tucker

Barbarians, Marauders, And Infidels: The Ways Of Medieval Warfare

Antonio Santosuosso

[nicky10013]

Stalin and Mao did more then mass suppression their death tolls are larger then that of Hitler.

I said They do not need a huge army to do what hitler did, just few canisters of VX.

You said They're not genocidal. Sorry.

Shady said So mass graves don't equal genocide?

You said No, no they don't. There are common factors in genocide for it to be determined as such.

(a) Killing members of the group;

( Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;

© Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;

(d) Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;

(e) Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.

Shady said

Rights Group Tells of Taliban Massacres

Victims have been mostly people of the Hazara ethnic group, who are largely Shiite Muslims, the rights organization said. The Taliban, Islamic militants who control most of the country, are Sunni Muslims and mostly ethnic Pathans.

Link

Stop defending genocide.

You said Who was defending genocide? You talk about leftist hyperbole, that in itself is probably the worst hyperbole on this board. I wasn't aware of any massacres nor were most here. Nor is this report actually confirmed.

So what we see here is that you are more concerned that someone may have been hit with a shoe.

Then those that may have been killed for political or genocide matters.

You seem to live in this fairly land where these types will do no wrong.

I have news for you these people are no better then Chemical Ali, or those that have used them in the past.

I have not seen you even begin to fathom what these people are capable of and seem to content to defend them even though history shows a different record

Some light reading material that you might find enlightening

The Lion, the Fox and the Eagle

Carol Off

War of Nerves:

Chemical Warfare from World War I to Al-Qaeda

By Jonathan B. Tucker

Barbarians, Marauders, And Infidels: The Ways Of Medieval Warfare

Antonio Santosuosso

So, you took the fact that I don't think mass graves are genocide and you've extrapolated it to me saying I think someone being hit with a shoe is more important? Are you fucking retarded?

[Alta4ever]

We can't impose our laws on them. We can abide by them overseas and treat people as we would like to be treated.

We aren't torturing them, when will you get this fact through your head. What has happened is that some of those that were transfered were beaten. The opposition is trying to make this a political football, but have lacked the moral fortitude to accuse the Afgan government (where the abuses are occuring) of war crimes and demand an investigation.

This is the thrid time this has been spelled out for you but you keep ignoring it.

[nicky10013]

We aren't torturing them, when will you get this fact through your head. What has happened is that some of those that were transfered were beaten. The opposition is trying to make this a political football, but have lacked the moral fortitude to accuse the Afgan government (where the abuses are occuring) of war crimes and demand an investigation.

This is the thrid time this has been spelled out for you but you keep ignoring it.

When we hand people over to a government knowing they'll be tortured, then what's the difference? What is the difference? There is none. The law says as much. That's the only thing that's being ignored here.

[Alta4ever]

So, you took the fact that I don't think mass graves are genocide and you've extrapolated it to me saying I think someone being hit with a shoe is more important? Are you fucking retarded?

Those are words and the image you are creating of yourself.

I care that POW's don't get tortured but this is nothing more then the opposition trying to use these allegations as a wedge issue, they don't sincerely care. If they believed the treatment of afgans prisoners to be so reprehensible they would be looking for a war crimes investigation of the agfani authorities and government. When will we see this.

[Alta4ever]

When we hand people over to a government knowing they'll be tortured, then what's the difference? What is the difference? There is none. The law says as much. That's the only thing that's being ignored here.

No we didn't.

[nicky10013]

Those are words and the image you are creating of yourself.

I care that POW's don't get tortured but this is nothing more then the opposition trying to use these allegations as a wedge issue, they don't sincerely care. If they believed the treatment of afgans prisoners to be so reprehensible they would be looking for a war crimes investigation of the agfani authorities and government. When will we see this.

But didn't you just say that we can't impose our laws on afghani authorities and we should just let them be?

This wouldn't be a wedge issue if Harper just relased the documents to a parliamentary committee. What are people supposed to think? There has been widespread reports, even from the Chief of the Defence staff that detainees that we've handed over prisoners to be tortured. This isn't a wedge issue as much as it is about what we want to define our democracy. What values we really hold dear. This is an issue that could be monumentally embarassing to the nation and not just any party. We need to figure out what's going on. Sorry, the people upset over this are truly upset.

As for the words and an image I'm creating myself? With all due respect you can go screw yourself. Using genocide and stalin as mao as tools to try and win an argument are the tactics of the mentally weak. I have a tip and this is all I'll say on the rest of this topic. Go to Auschwitz. See the gas chambers. See the ashes. See the 3 tonnes of human hair, and the suitcases and the glasses and the prosthetic limbs. Go and see those things and come back and try put those things together with people you don't like politically.

[Alta4ever]

But didn't you just say that we can't impose our laws on afghani authorities and we should just let them be?

I was being factious. To illustrate a point about the moral authority the liberals and the NDP have on this subject.

Edited March 9, 2010 by Alta4ever

[nicky10013]

I was being factious.

no, just being an idiot. You've got a horrible record of changing your record just to oppose people for the sake of opposing them. Sorry if I don't believe you.

[Alta4ever]

This wouldn't be a wedge issue if Harper just relased the documents to a parliamentary committee. What are people supposed to think? There has been widespread reports, even from the Chief of the Defence staff that detainees that we've handed over prisoners to be tortured. This isn't a wedge issue as much as it is about what we want to define our democracy. What values we really hold dear. This is an issue that could be monumentally embarassing to the nation and not just any party. We need to figure out what's going on. Sorry, the people upset over this are truly upset.

Redacted documents were released.

[Alta4ever]

Go and read the books I suggested, they are enlightening. Knoweledge will set you free. Had I not started reading history instead of taking high school teachers and professors word on it I would still be a liberal.