CP Learns that CSIS interrogated tortured Afghan Detainees

[M.Dancer]

No it is a fact. Every US soldier goes to Saudi arabia witha hose and a jerry can and we he gets leave he rushes off to he oil fields to plunder their oil wealth....

...houndreds of thousands of GIs returning weekly with gallons of usurped oil hidden in their awol bags and used to buy mansions in Wallawalla Washington....

[eyeball]

Actually it speaks of a changing...as in I am becoming sadder and sadder with mealy mouthed apologies....

Stop apologizing then.

[Shady]

No it is a fact. Every US soldier goes to Saudi arabia witha hose and a jerry can and we he gets leave he rushes off to he oil fields to plunder their oil wealth....

...houndreds of thousands of GIs returning weekly with gallons of usurped oil hidden in their awol bags and used to buy mansions in Wallawalla Washington....

LOL, exactly. I still can't figure out what he meant by "plundered." After all, 9/11 took place when the US wasn't in Afghanistan or Iraq. They weren't occupying any middle east country. Yes, they bought oil from countries that were selling it. So does every country. I guess that means "plundering" oil?

It's just more leftwing fall back position filled with immense hyperbole.

[Alta4ever]

In a word, blowback.

Blow back for helping Muslims?

[nicky10013]

Last I check the Saudi's were being paid fair market value for their oil by the world, and are you unfamiliar with the term OPEC?

What is wrong with supporting Israel? They have not been the aggressors in any war.

Lets just kill them? Where the hell does this come from? Or is it that you can't comprehend that you fight the enemy until they surrender? That is how wars are won.

Terrorism is not organized crime.

You need to find yourself a different teacher.

I can recommend some very good books on 19th and 20th century history, if you care to understand world conflicts.

I believe Mr. Canada said lets just kill them.

I've probably already read thos books and unfortunately for you there's a difference between reading and comprehension.

Actually, terrorism is really quite close to organized crime. Terrorism isn't a state activity. It's committed by individuals or groups that are made up of international organizations. They committ illegal activities to fund and operate their organizations. THe only thing that's really different is the goal of the organizations. In mafia type groups, it's to make money. In radical islamic groups it's to pursue a political goal. Honestly, I'd put money on more murders being purpotrated by the Italian Mafia than international islamic terrorism. Yet, the army wouldn't burn down new jersey to kill a couple hundred hoods. Yet that's exactly what's happening in Iraq and Afghanistan.

And, there's nothing wrong with supporting Israel, but to say they haven't been the aggressors in any war is stupendously hilarious. And whether or not it's alright to support Israel, the people we're fighting hates Israel. So, the lack of the ability to think like them is honestly what's hurting us in this effort. Some people just can't understand other people's reasons.

It also doesn't matter what OPEC is there for. It's what THEY think about it. Just remember, we're not dealing with a rational state actor so things like that often doesn't get through.

[Shady]

In a word, blowback.

Yep, and now they're getting blowback. Payback's a bitch isn't it!

[eyeball]

Blow back for helping Muslims?

Well yeah, those Muslims that were in charge of some really really shitty governments, the kind of governments we usually go to war against, not for.

[nicky10013]

Then you will admit the liberal government made a mistake by negotiating the transfer of detainees to afganistan?

Of course they did. They should've had the foresight to look forward and say gee, I wonder what the Afghans may do. That in no way absolves the Conservatives for their lack of action for the better part of 4 years, however.

[nicky10013]

LOL, exactly. I still can't figure out what he meant by "plundered." After all, 9/11 took place when the US wasn't in Afghanistan or Iraq. They weren't occupying any middle east country. Yes, they bought oil from countries that were selling it. So does every country. I guess that means "plundering" oil?

It's just more leftwing fall back position filled with immense hyperbole.

No it isn't, it's about what THEY think and not what we think. It's hyperbole but it isn't mine.

[Alta4ever]

If you can't understand what I said, you shouldn't be allowed to vote.

This isn't a "liberal witch hunt." This is not only about what we're doing in Afghanistan but what our parliament means to us. There's no real doubt about what actually happened. Everyone except for the goverment (everyone including the military) has fessed up to the fact that the military has been handing people over who have been tortured. Now the govenrment is vainly trying to cover it up. The documents have been witheld from parliament even though parliament, which is supreme, has expressly asked for them.

So now, this debate becomes about what our democratic values are and how we should represent those values abroad. If we really are fighting for freedom, then why undermine it? If we're fighting for freedom, then why censor information? This goes way beyond the liberal conservative divide. Both parties are to blame along the timeline. The questions we now face are much bigger than that. We'll see how it turns out.

I understand very well what democratic values, I also understand this issue has nothing to do with them, it is a disgusting display of power hungry opposition leaders look to play politics on the back of Canadians and our armed forces. If they were at all concerned about the Afgan detainees they would be pushing to have the afgan government investigated for torture allegations and to have members of its government brought up on war crime charges for its behavior?

This is a disgusting display of playing politics and those who cannot see this for what it is a ignorant fool.

Edited March 8, 2010 by Alta4ever

[Shady]

Well yeah, those Muslims that were in charge of some really really shitty governments, the kind of governments we usually go to war against, not for.

Oh, so you're advocating regime change for every middle eastern oppressive government?

[Alta4ever]

No it isn't, it's about what THEY think and not what we think. It's hyperbole but it isn't mine.

I doubt the average afgani has any thoughts about America and oil, I bet more of them consume their thoughts with just how they are going to survive from day to day. They do not have this luxury of philosophical and ideological discussion that we have. They have hard lives in which they have to scrounge and work like dogs most moments of every day just to survive.

[eyeball]

Of course they did. They should've had the foresight to look forward and say gee, I wonder what the Afghans may do. That in no way absolves the Conservatives for their lack of action for the better part of 4 years, however.

Nor does it absolve conservatives for howling like banshees at the Liberals to get into Afghanistan.

This is now CANADA'S shame. In a democracy we're all responsible for our government's actions no matter who is in power or when.

Edited March 8, 2010 by eyeball

[Alta4ever]

This is now CANADA'S shame. In a democracy we're all responsible for our government's actions no matter who is in power or when.

How is the torture allegation not Afganistans shame, they are miss treating their prisoners were are the calls of human rights abuses, and the need for war crime trials, oh ya that kind of talk from opposition leaders does nothing to help this need to create national political scandals for talking points in the HOC.

You should feel shameful eyeball, very shameful.

Edited March 8, 2010 by Alta4ever

[eyeball]

Oh, so you're advocating regime change for every middle eastern oppressive government?

Nope. I'm advocating that we stay the f&*k out of it and let nature take it's course. Why should be obvious enough.

[M.Dancer]

Oh, so you're advocating regime change for every middle eastern oppressive government?

Bieng consistent is not one of SB strong points...

[nicky10013]

I doubt the average afgani has any thoughts about America and oil, I bet more of them consume their thoughts with just how they are going to survive from day to day. They do not have this luxury of philosophical and ideological discussion that we have. They have hard lives in which they have to scrounge and work like dogs most moments of every day just to survive.

I completely agree. The problem is that we don't have to worry about the people who are just looking for the next meal. The taliban is an incredibly small problem and most of the people already have money to eat. The problem is they also have money to fund weapons purchases through opium sales.

[nicky10013]

How is the torture allegation not Afganistans shame, they are miss treating their prisoners were are the calls of human rights abuses, and the need for war crime trials, oh ya that kind of talk from opposition leaders does nothing to help this need to create national political scandals for talking points in the HOC.

You should feel shameful eyeball, very shameful.

It is shameful on part of the Afghan government. But when we're there to "fight for freedom" as Bush and Harper liked to say, how shameful is it that we went along with it? We're the ones that are supposed to be better; how to teach these people to construct open institutions and instill democratic values.

[Alta4ever]

Nope. I'm advocating that we stay the f&*k out of it and let nature take it's course. Why should be obvious enough.

Gee I wonder how that attitude worked for Neville Chamberlain?

[Alta4ever]

It is shameful on part of the Afghan government. But when we're there to "fight for freedom" as Bush and Harper liked to say, how shameful is it that we went along with it? We're the ones that are supposed to be better; how to teach these people to construct open institutions and instill democratic values.

So if we are better why are our opposition MP's not championing an movement to have war crimes charges brought against the current afgani government?

[Shady]

Nope. I'm advocating that we stay the f&*k out of it and let nature take it's course. Why should be obvious enough.

Well, nature took its course, and 9/11 happened.

[eyeball]

How is the torture allegation not Afganistans shame, they are miss treating their prisoners were are the calls of human rights abuses, and the need for war crime trials, oh ya that kind of talk from opposition leaders does nothing to help this need to create national political scandals for talking points in the HOC.

It's our shame because the Afghans we're turning prisoners over to are our allies.

You should feel shameful eyeball, very shameful.

I do feel very shameful not to mention thoroughly disgusted at the pride you seem to insist on displaying.

[nicky10013]

Gee I wonder how that attitude worked for Neville Chamberlain?

These people aren't Hitler. Hitler had a vast army and conquered Europe. These guys can't even conquer their own backyard, yet we're treating them as the biggest threat since the invention of democracy.

In the end though, if you want to flip around the argument, you could say that they are completing their goals. Look at it this way. There's nothing more we love than our liberty, but these guys blew up two buildings and now we're stumbling over ourselves to see who can abuse the most rights. Perhaps they knew us better than we give them credit for. Perhaps they knew that we are actually the greatest threat to our democracy, and not groups like Al-Qaeda and the Taliban.

[DrGreenthumb]

The RCMP should seize the documents and deliver them to Parliament, as it is against the law for the Conservatives to withhold them. If it turns out that the document implicate anyone in the Conservative party in war crimes, then those who tried to stall the release of documents(Rob Nicholson), using tricks like prorogations(stephen Harper), should also face obstruction of justice charges.

[Shady]

and now we're stumbling over ourselves to see who can abuse the most rights.

Again, more hyperbole.