eyeball Posted March 11, 2010 Report Posted March 11, 2010 it has gone from knowledge of torture to recommending torture to possibly doing it so its not entirely clear yet about CSIS that's what i am saying It's probably not supposed to be clear. Quote A government without public oversight is like a nuclear plant without lead shielding.
msdogfood Posted March 11, 2010 Report Posted March 11, 2010 (edited) any one note how much CSIS has suddenly sprog Lek's as well as DND & foreign affairs/ SEDA too I am wondering if there siting on something a LOT bigger because CSIS leaks but not like this not to at lest 3 press outlets!!! HMMMM Edited March 11, 2010 by msdogfood Quote
wyly Posted March 11, 2010 Report Posted March 11, 2010 Are we playing word games or are we admitting there are two standards , A canadian one in which we charge police officer with assualt and punish them for thier actions not the entire dept, or in fact the entire government.........or the Afghanistan standard where the police officer get off and we hold our soldiers, military, CSIS, Dept corrections, RCMP, and entire riening government for torture....in Somali who was charged? who were punished, dismantling a regiment punishes no one, in fact most involved were charged with nothing and of those that were only 4 were convicted...In Afghanistan who has been charged with anything??? we have a government and likely military personal who have been covering up information, what are they hiding, what are they afraid we'll find?here's some info on the Somalia affair, it's from wiki so tainted but still suggests the regiment was disfunctional... Quote “Conservatives are not necessarily stupid, but most stupid people are conservatives.”- John Stuart Mill
eyeball Posted March 11, 2010 Report Posted March 11, 2010 so you think it will?? I'm pretty sure it will contribute to taking Harper down, he looks like he's firmly headed in that direction already. I doubt if it will take down the power of his office though. I mean, we got into this position where Parliament is trumped by the government because successive regimes keep adding more power to the PMO. I don't see that trend changing and I suspect it could one day help bring down the country. Quote A government without public oversight is like a nuclear plant without lead shielding.
M.Dancer Posted March 11, 2010 Report Posted March 11, 2010 ....because successive regimes keep adding more power to the PMO. .... Sure....of course....that's as nonsensical as saying... Parliament is trumped by the government 1st, parliament is the government....secondly, the constitution had not been altered...the PMO has as much or as little power as it did 50 years ago Quote RIGHT of SOME, LEFT of OTHERS If it is a choice between them and us, I choose us
eyeball Posted March 11, 2010 Report Posted March 11, 2010 1st, parliament is the government....secondly, the constitution had not been altered...the PMO has as much or as little power as it did 50 years ago http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Office_of_the_Prime_Minister_(Canada) Quote A government without public oversight is like a nuclear plant without lead shielding.
M.Dancer Posted March 11, 2010 Report Posted March 11, 2010 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Office_of_the_Prime_Minister_(Canada) Gee ...a link..how exciting! So what? Quote RIGHT of SOME, LEFT of OTHERS If it is a choice between them and us, I choose us
eyeball Posted March 11, 2010 Report Posted March 11, 2010 Gee ...a link..how exciting! So what? the PMO has as much or as little power as it did 50 years ago History The Office of the Prime Minister was a fairly weak and secondary group before Pierre Trudeau became Prime Minister in 1968, after whose appointment much of what had previously been the responsibility of the Privy Council Office was shifted to the PMO. After that point, the PMO became more central to the government, and many of Trudeau's economic and constitutional initiatives were launched with the aid and advice of its staff. Progressive Conservative (Tory) Prime Minister Brian Mulroney similarly had a powerful and active PMO, finding the advice he received from his staff there more reliable than that which came from civil servants (whom he considered to be Liberal-leaning), or from those in the fractious Tory party. After Jean Chrétien was appointed as Prime Minister, the PMO shrank in size and influence, Chrétien relying more on the Cabinet for direction. However, as his time as prime minister went on, he came to rely more on the PMO, especially his Chief of Staff, Jean Pelletier, who ran the office from 1993 to 2001, and Senior Advisor, Eddie Goldenberg, who had spent his entire career working with Chrétien in various ministries. Chrétien's successor, Paul Martin, changed the structure of the PMO to more match that of the Executive Office of the President of the United States. For example, he introduced deputy chiefs of staff, who were responsible for areas such as communications and policy; re-established the position of director in the offices of the other ministers of the Crown, positions that were previously known as special assistants; and re-established the position of Principal Secretary, which had originally been created by Trudeau. Martin further, and significantly, increased the salary of the PMO's staff. This model has largely been retained by the present prime minister, Stephen Harper, despite the recommendations of John Gomery following his investigation into the sponsorship scandal, when he concluded that the power of the PMO be reduced. Quote A government without public oversight is like a nuclear plant without lead shielding.
Born Free Posted March 11, 2010 Report Posted March 11, 2010 Are we playing word games or are we admitting there are two standards , The standard regarding the detention of people by the Canadian military is the Geneva Convention. Surely you must know that. NO, i will publically admit i have an asshole as well as an opinion.....and while screaming may be a slightly to strong a word , i don't think it's all in my head... What word would you use to describe the feeling of 35 million Canadians? Quote
Born Free Posted March 11, 2010 Report Posted March 11, 2010 Ther e is no proof of any wrong doing. If something wrong happened prove it. If there was a victim what was his or her name? Yer like the Mad Hatter... Quote
M.Dancer Posted March 11, 2010 Report Posted March 11, 2010 History The Office of the Prime Minister was a fairly weak and secondary group before Pierre Trudeau became Prime Minister in 1968, after whose appointment much of what had previously been the responsibility of the Privy Council Office was shifted to the PMO. After that point, the PMO became more central to the government, and many of Trudeau's economic and constitutional initiatives were launched with the aid and advice of its staff. Progressive Conservative (Tory) Prime Minister Brian Mulroney similarly had a powerful and active PMO, finding the advice he received from his staff there more reliable than that which came from civil servants (whom he considered to be Liberal-leaning), or from those in the fractious Tory party. After Jean Chrétien was appointed as Prime Minister, the PMO shrank in size and influence, Chrétien relying more on the Cabinet for direction. However, as his time as prime minister went on, he came to rely more on the PMO, especially his Chief of Staff, Jean Pelletier, who ran the office from 1993 to 2001, and Senior Advisor, Eddie Goldenberg, who had spent his entire career working with Chrétien in various ministries. Chrétien's successor, Paul Martin, changed the structure of the PMO to more match that of the Executive Office of the President of the United States. For example, he introduced deputy chiefs of staff, who were responsible for areas such as communications and policy; re-established the position of director in the offices of the other ministers of the Crown, positions that were previously known as special assistants; and re-established the position of Principal Secretary, which had originally been created by Trudeau. Martin further, and significantly, increased the salary of the PMO's staff. This model has largely been retained by the present prime minister, Stephen Harper, despite the recommendations of John Gomery following his investigation into the sponsorship scandal, when he concluded that the power of the PMO be reduced. That's all very interesting, how the office became more efficient and all, but does not mean the PMO has more governing power...power resides in Parliament. Quote RIGHT of SOME, LEFT of OTHERS If it is a choice between them and us, I choose us
eyeball Posted March 11, 2010 Report Posted March 11, 2010 That's all very interesting, how the office became more efficient and all, but does not mean the PMO has more governing power...power resides in Parliament. In theory maybe but not in practice. Quote A government without public oversight is like a nuclear plant without lead shielding.
M.Dancer Posted March 11, 2010 Report Posted March 11, 2010 In theory maybe but not in practice. Really? How many new laws have been enacted or repealed by the PMO? Quote RIGHT of SOME, LEFT of OTHERS If it is a choice between them and us, I choose us
eyeball Posted March 11, 2010 Report Posted March 11, 2010 Anyway's, to get this back on the topic as it pertains to the issue of detainees/POW's... Toadbrother said it best by pointing out that Harper is violating one of the key tenets of our system of government, that Parliament commands government, not the other way around, and that part of that power is that government under no circumstances can deny Parliament such a request.. Like I said, anyone who is convinced that Canada is as innocent as a lamb should be demanding to see all the documents that pertain to the issue. It's particularly queer that they aren't. Quote A government without public oversight is like a nuclear plant without lead shielding.
Born Free Posted March 11, 2010 Report Posted March 11, 2010 Like I said, anyone who is convinced that Canada is as innocent as a lamb should be demanding to see all the documents that pertain to the issue. It's particularly queer that they aren't. What is patently clear is that the brass at the DNC clearly lied....especially Hillier when he stated that the liklihood of Afgans torturing detainees is "ludicrous". Everyone in the fucking world knew that the Afghans, Syrians, Iraqis, Saudis, Iranians, etc. etc. employed torture. Hell, even our friends the Yankees did it! That horseshit story from Hillier alone justifies digging deeper into the issue. The Harper gang have a lot to answer for on this. Quote
msdogfood Posted March 12, 2010 Report Posted March 12, 2010 It's probably not supposed to be clear. yes that is very true!. Quote
msdogfood Posted March 12, 2010 Report Posted March 12, 2010 What is patently clear is that the brass at the DNC clearly lied....especially Hillier when he stated that the liklihood of Afgans torturing detainees is "ludicrous". Everyone in the fucking world knew that the Afghans, Syrians, Iraqis, Saudis, Iranians, etc. etc. employed torture. Hell, even our friends the Yankees did it! That horseshit story from Hillier alone justifies digging deeper into the issue. The Harper gang have a lot to answer for on this. Hillier will probably be cherd with a war crime!! Quote
Born Free Posted March 12, 2010 Report Posted March 12, 2010 Canada's former chief of defence staff Rick Hillier slammed a diplomat's testimony that all detainees transferred by Canadians to Afghan prisons were likely tortured by Afghan officials, saying it's "ludicrous." An interesting read... Especially after watching Hillier's bullshit blustering.... Read more: http://www.cbc.ca/canada/story/2009/11/25/hillier-detainees.html#ixzz0hydOqvVV GLOBE STORY Ottawa knew of alternative Afghan prison-transfer plan The Harper government has always insisted it heard no warnings of torture risks facing Afghan detainees in 2006, but documents show that in the same year it was carefully following a NATO campaign to take responsibility for captured prisoners away from the country’s notorious intelligence service. A memo obtained by The Globe and Mail shows that in 2006 the federal government was briefed on a lobbying campaign by NATO allies aimed at getting the Kabul government to create stronger safeguards for detainees after prisoner abuses elsewhere. Quote
Army Guy Posted March 12, 2010 Report Posted March 12, 2010 in Somali who was charged? who were punished, dismantling a regiment punishes no one, in fact most involved were charged with nothing and of those that were only 4 were convicted... ( men were charged 5 recieved sentences, 4 where aquited, out of those 4 3 later released, and the LtCol of the regt who was just in the news is just getting promoted this year, so his carear had stopped until now.... Once the Regt was on the ground from Somolia and the CO was removed, the New CO came in with orders to clean the Regt up....he did this, once again a fluery of releases followed, some forced some just retired as the game was over....before his term of duty was up all the bad apples where gone, from the forces or the Regt....so when they did disband the regt some 5 years later, it was an entirely new unit....filled with soldiers that wanted to be there soldiers that had worked hard at restoring thier reputation... As for the disbanding the Regt, and that punishment....you fail to understand that this unit was Canada's only elite status unit....some would say it was just a Para regt, but it went beyond that, most of it's members had ohter training Such as US ranger tabs (pretty common in the Regt), had completed courses from British SAS, SBS, US green berets, US navy Seals, dozens of other elite training from some of the finest units available in the world ....very expensive training....All pissed into the wind...Sure some of these guys form the bases of our current JTF 2 troops, but most just retired, no longer wanting to serve.... This regt has a long and colorful history , all retired in disgrace....including past serving and present serving members...and in the military this dishonor carries alot of wieght,.... Since the regt provided a stepping stone for Army guys to progress in thier training, recieving regular Infantry training at the BN level, as you become better you'd join the Airbourne which furthered your training....to the piont you would be ready for the next stop our new JTF 2 or spec ops guys....on disbandment that was slashed no longer would our military have that training ground to improve our soldiers....and while today CSOR now fills that role, it has lost alot of it's seasoned soldiers....something that can not be replaced... disbanding the regt is not like just closing a GM plant in ontario....it was like closing ALL of GM down, losing an entire link in that chain....and that is a punishment....and a great loss.. Quote We, the willing, led by the unknowing, are doing the impossible for the ungrateful. We have now done so much for so long with so little, we are now capable of doing anything with nothing.
Army Guy Posted March 12, 2010 Report Posted March 12, 2010 The standard regarding the detention of people by the Canadian military is the Geneva Convention. Surely you must know that. Yes it is , but as i have tried to explain to you where did DND break that convention....Others have said they where warned, BS....we suspected it was happening in other districts...but had none happen in our AO (area of ops) all we had was rumours...and you can not start an inter-national incident on a rumour...can you...imigine the press headlines when a bunch of Canadian soldiers arrive at a local police station to pick up all prisoners because we had heard a rumour that someone was getting tortured... If you can see this was not torture but a beating...and a local Afghan problem....As for the convention side of things we did everything by the book, we found out about the beating and picked up the detainee ASAP....Reports where filled, what was said in those reports who knows...who read them who knows, did they discribe it as a beating or torture who knows...we 'll have to wait... Quote We, the willing, led by the unknowing, are doing the impossible for the ungrateful. We have now done so much for so long with so little, we are now capable of doing anything with nothing.
Born Free Posted March 12, 2010 Report Posted March 12, 2010 Yes it is , but as i have tried to explain to you where did DND break that convention....Others have said they where warned, BS....we suspected it was happening in other districts...but had none happen in our AO (area of ops) all we had was rumours...and you can not start an inter-national incident on a rumour...can you...imigine the press headlines when a bunch of Canadian soldiers arrive at a local police station to pick up all prisoners because we had heard a rumour that someone was getting tortured... If you can see this was not torture but a beating...and a local Afghan problem....As for the convention side of things we did everything by the book, we found out about the beating and picked up the detainee ASAP....Reports where filled, what was said in those reports who knows...who read them who knows, did they discribe it as a beating or torture who knows...we 'll have to wait... Beating a captive amounts to torture. Please dont play word games on this. I'll accept that you did everything by the book. The Globe article tells us that Harper lied which is really what this story is about ....Harper and & Co. bullshitting us.....including you. Having observed the General Boyle gong show (aka Hillier) it makes it even more disgusting. I really dont like it when a PM and an honour bound general do that stuff. At the very least, they should be publicly humiliated just as they did to Colvin.... Quote
eyeball Posted March 12, 2010 Report Posted March 12, 2010 If you can see this was not torture but a beating...and a local Afghan problem....As for the convention side of things we did everything by the book, we found out about the beating and picked up the detainee ASAP....Reports where filled, what was said in those reports who knows...who read them who knows, did they discribe it as a beating or torture who knows...we 'll have to wait... You should follow your own adage i'm listening , teach me and demand to see the documents. Quote A government without public oversight is like a nuclear plant without lead shielding.
Alta4ever Posted March 12, 2010 Report Posted March 12, 2010 You should follow your own adage i'm listening , teach me and demand to see the documents. It looks like the Liberals are going to get touched by this one http://www.cbc.ca/politics/story/2010/03/10/afghan-detainees-controversy.html Those in glass houses, Hey MS should the former Liberal government be charged with war crime charges since they knowingly setup this agreement when they with what the reports where coming out of the afgan jails at the time? Quote "What about the legitimacy of the democratic process, yeah, what about it?" Jack Layton and his coup against the people of Canada “The nine most terrifying words in the English language are, ‘I’m from the government and I’m here to help.’” President Ronald Reagan
bloodyminded Posted March 12, 2010 Report Posted March 12, 2010 It looks like the Liberals are going to get touched by this one http://www.cbc.ca/politics/story/2010/03/10/afghan-detainees-controversy.html Those in glass houses, Hey MS should the former Liberal government be charged with war crime charges since they knowingly setup this agreement when they with what the reports where coming out of the afgan jails at the time? The Liberals should get touched by this one. Everybody responsible. Quote As scarce as truth is, the supply has always been in excess of the demand. --Josh Billings
eyeball Posted March 12, 2010 Report Posted March 12, 2010 It looks like the Liberals are going to get touched by this one It's touching you too. Quote A government without public oversight is like a nuclear plant without lead shielding.
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