Jerry J. Fortin Posted March 11, 2010 Report Posted March 11, 2010 The only place this subject is going is toward a full public inquiry. Nobody is letting this slide folks and the only conclusion I can take from that is that it seems to concern everyone. Harper will need to start some radical planning to step out of this one because it is literally spiraling out of control. Quote
Born Free Posted March 11, 2010 Report Posted March 11, 2010 I think it's very revelant to this case, it is after Canadians here that are screaming for an inquiry, Nobody's screaming. You cant rationalize away the need for an inquiry by smokescreening it with incidents of police brutality in Toronto or Vancouver. We have domestic laws to deal with it. This is about our actions on the international stage and this is what this thread is all about. And your right you don't have to have any experiance on any topic to have a view on it...But it helps to put things into context , to understand why things may or may not have been done, would you not agree... There you go again with the "I'm more experienced in these matters than you are" crap. I entirely disagree with you. Corruption is corruption whether it's in the government, the military or in the banking world.... Perhaps , but actions speak louder than words... What actions? This is about words and opinions. Really go back though all the post in this thread, just add up how many times Mackay and co are mentioned , and then add up how many times Canadian Soldiers are mentioned....some of you keep saying it's about our government ....and yet when you flip though the posts they are hardly mentioned.... There is probable cause out on the table to suggest that a cover up is in the works. I am reminded of how the goverment smeared Richard Colvin just as the military did to Dr. Barry Armstrong of the Somalia Inquiry. Folks such as yourself continued to be adament that there is nothing to the story. So be it. I believe otherwise. Sorry you are taking this so personal given your military background. You shouldnt. This issue is about the government of Canada's dealings and actions (or lack of) with respect to the handling of detainees. Its hard to exclude mentioning the military in the process. In prior threads on this topic, the same people (including me) were very concerned that our government is lying about the issue. I still believe that. Instead, a certain poster elected to make this about the interpretaion of the Geneva Conventions and willfully turned a blind eye to information that has been proffered by credible sources. Cheers, Quote
Born Free Posted March 11, 2010 Report Posted March 11, 2010 Oh it isn't a hard word to grasp. In the present context of Afghanistan, it refers to belligerents who, by reason of them not conforming with the conventions of war, are not afforded the status of Prisoner of War and therefore not eligible for the benefits given to POWs by the 3rd Geneva convention. Wonderful. You should read Article 4. You have been trying to cleverly sidestep the issue by playing Barry Scheck over the Geneva convention....but not clever enough. This story is about evidence proffered by credible sources that Canada might have been handing over detaineees to the Afghans and subsequently tortured. It matters not what you personally wish to define the detainees as being..beligerants, criminals or terrorists or militia... This story is about trying to determine Canada's role in the matter...eg. Were we willfully ignoring information about prisoner torture OR were we turning a blind eye to the torture OR were we perhaps complicit in the torture process as evidenced by the accusations leveled against CSIS. Of course we know that the track record of CSIS has a blemish or two in recent times. Have a great day. Quote
Army Guy Posted March 11, 2010 Report Posted March 11, 2010 Nobody's screaming. You cant rationalize away the need for an inquiry by smokescreening it with incidents of police brutality in Toronto or Vancouver. We have domestic laws to deal with it. This is about our actions on the international stage and this is what this thread is all about. As does Afghanistan, they to have domestic laws in dealing with thier own police and thier actions as well....Some how here in Canada it has grown into a major national concern...And i would say you had a case if OUR soldiers had handed over a detainee and had requested or knew he would be tortured....but thats not the case....in fact our soldiers followed protocal and once they found out he was beaten, they retreived him ASAP....and filled a report detailing the beating...the only thing they did not do is phone the CDS and inform him.... This procedure is followed hundreds of times a month....it orginated at our foreign affairs office and put into place by all depts in Afghan....DND captures Prisoners, logs them, then hands them over to local police for furtherance to a National prison...Only this time things went wrong....Afghan police beat this indiv...This portion of the problem needs to be solved with Afghanistan....not here in Canada.... But here we convert a beating into torture, and then state we should have known better, because we have been warned....that it might happen...i say might happen because there is no proof to state it does...if there was someone should have been charged, but was not..... But when parliment decided to stop shipping Detainees to the US run facilities and put in place shipping them to Afghan run prisons...Did we not know "then" they might be tortured....bullshit...we knew there may be a chance, shit ship them to italy they may be tortured as well...But we as a nation took the easy way out instead of creating our own detention facility and decided to ship them to Afghan ....SO be fucking it....lets own our decision and move on.....So while we would like to dump this at harpers feet ....i'm sure a minority government does not decide on an issue of this size by it's self....and parliment would have to decide on this issue for it to pass... Quote We, the willing, led by the unknowing, are doing the impossible for the ungrateful. We have now done so much for so long with so little, we are now capable of doing anything with nothing.
Mr.Canada Posted March 11, 2010 Report Posted March 11, 2010 (edited) ArmyGuy, your posts are good. Plus you retired from currently being in the Forces I am sure helps on this topic as you've most likely had first hand experience with the topic at hand. The rest of us can post whatever we'd like but at the end of the day we're just pissing in the wind. Thanks for posting here on this issue. Edited March 11, 2010 by Mr.Canada Quote "You are scum for insinuating that isn't the case you snake." -William Ashley Canadian Immigration Reform Blog
bloodyminded Posted March 11, 2010 Report Posted March 11, 2010 ArmyGuy, your posts are good. Plus you retired from currently being in the Forces I am sure helps on this topic as you've most likely had first hand experience with the topic at hand. Army Guy was not handed over by Canadian soldiers to be tortured by Afghan authorities. He has had zero "first-hand experience with the topic at hand." Anyway, summoning the authority of "the troops" is just "military fetishism": http://www.tomdispatch.com/post/2334/ Also, those who summon such authority don't actually believe it. Or else they'd be forced to agree with, for example, Howard Zinn's take on war. He was a decorated soldier, after all, and "the troops" always know what's what. Or they'd be compelled to agree with Andrew Bacevich (linked above) a career military man. Quote As scarce as truth is, the supply has always been in excess of the demand. --Josh Billings
Born Free Posted March 11, 2010 Report Posted March 11, 2010 Some how here in Canada it has grown into a major national concern... Yes it is of concern. This story is about evidence proffered by credible sources that Canada might have been handing over detaineees to the Afghans and subsequently tortured. This story is about trying to determine Canada's role in the matter...eg. Were we willfully ignoring information about prisoner torture OR were we turning a blind eye to the torture OR were we perhaps complicit in the torture process as evidenced by the accusations leveled against CSIS. Of course we know that the track record of CSIS has a blemish or two in recent times. You should be concerned too. And i would say you had a case if OUR soldiers had handed over a detainee and had requested or knew he would be tortured....in fact our soldiers followed protocal and once they found out he was beaten, they retreived him ASAP....and filled a report detailing the beating...the only thing they did not do is phone the CDS and inform him.... First, It's not my case. Perhaps you should testify at the Inquiry. Frankly, I find it odd that beatings were also reported to the CDC via phone call. Surely there must have been more than one indident like that and that some calls were made to CDC. Hillier asserted without reservation that it was "ludicrous" that prisoneres were likely tortured. You, as a soldier ,were clearly aware of torture incidents going on and your comrads/brothers correctly reported it. It must have been hard to swallow when Hillier used the "ludicrous" word and said he never saw any reports indicating torture. Hmmm...what was he doing while he sat in his office doing his IN Basket. I'll now remove the tongue from my cheek. But when parliment decided to stop shipping Detainees to the US run facilities and put in place shipping them to Afghan run prisons...Did we not know "then" they might be tortured....bullshit...we knew there may be a chance, shit ship them to italy they may be tortured as well...But we as a nation took the easy way out instead of creating our own detention facility and decided to ship them to Afghan ....SO be fucking it....lets own our decision and move on.....So while we would like to dump this at harpers feet ....i'm sure a minority government does not decide on an issue of this size by it's self....and parliment would have to decide on this issue for it to pass... Interesting. However, it doesnt explain why or illustrious leaders elected to play hot potato with the information you seem to be fully aware of. Harper and MacKay must have spent long hours how to wiggle out of their dilemma. Cover ups tend to end up being worse than the original crime. Cheers Quote
Mr.Canada Posted March 11, 2010 Report Posted March 11, 2010 (edited) Army Guy was not handed over by Canadian soldiers to be tortured by Afghan authorities. He has had zero "first-hand experience with the topic at hand." Anyway, summoning the authority of "the troops" is just "military fetishism": http://www.tomdispatch.com/post/2334/ Also, those who summon such authority don't actually believe it. Or else they'd be forced to agree with, for example, Howard Zinn's take on war. He was a decorated soldier, after all, and "the troops" always know what's what. Or they'd be compelled to agree with Andrew Bacevich (linked above) a career military man. Anyone can be tortured by any nation. It's impossible to 100% gurantee that any person will not be tortured. Aside from that you have zero proof of any torture eve ntaking place and you have even less proff of any wrong doing on the part of Canada. The opposition is only trying to make political hay. If Canada is guilty then where are the chrages against Canada? Where are the charge against Afghanistan? When are we scheduled to be tried in The Hague? We have real problems to deal with. This is just another precieved victim for the socialists to grasp onto. They don't care what it is or who it is. If there's any chance that there's some sort of victim their's the NDP to the rescue... Edited March 11, 2010 by Mr.Canada Quote "You are scum for insinuating that isn't the case you snake." -William Ashley Canadian Immigration Reform Blog
Born Free Posted March 11, 2010 Report Posted March 11, 2010 Anyone can be tortured by any nation. It's impossible to 100% gurantee that any person will not be tortured. Its not about guaranteeing that nobody will be tortured. It's about how we deal with it when the torture is discovered. Namely...what the military does about it, what the military brass does about it and what our government leaders do about it. The latest information and the cause for this thread is questioning if our government authorities actually participated in torture. Hope this helps. Quote
Mr.Canada Posted March 11, 2010 Report Posted March 11, 2010 Its not about guaranteeing that nobody will be tortured. It's about how we deal with it when the torture is discovered. Namely...what the military does about it, what the military brass does about it and what our government leaders do about it. The latest information and the cause for this thread is questioning if our government authorities actually participated in torture. Hope this helps. Who was tortured? Provide proof please. If you have no name, their can be no victim and with no victim their can be no crime. Quote "You are scum for insinuating that isn't the case you snake." -William Ashley Canadian Immigration Reform Blog
Born Free Posted March 11, 2010 Report Posted March 11, 2010 Who was tortured? Provide proof please. If you have no name, their can be no victim and with no victim their can be no crime. Stop being so damn Dancer-like. How old are you? Quote
Mr.Canada Posted March 11, 2010 Report Posted March 11, 2010 (edited) Stop being so damn Dancer-like. How old are you? I learned from the master. 35. How old are you? So you cannot provide proof so your next step is to start with ad hominem? Edited March 11, 2010 by Mr.Canada Quote "You are scum for insinuating that isn't the case you snake." -William Ashley Canadian Immigration Reform Blog
Born Free Posted March 11, 2010 Report Posted March 11, 2010 I learned from the master. 35. How old are you? So you cannot provide proof so your next step is to start with ad hominem? You learned nothing. 35 is your IQ. I'm betting your three most difficult years in High School were grade 10. Go read Army Guys stuff.....you're in such awe of him. Ask him for proof. He is apparently aware of the torture....and wrote about it. If you have any trouble reading through it, get back to us. Quote
Army Guy Posted March 11, 2010 Report Posted March 11, 2010 Army Guy was not handed over by Canadian soldiers to be tortured by Afghan authorities. He has had zero "first-hand experience with the topic at hand." No your right I was not handed over by soldiers to be tortured....neither was this man we are talking about unless you have proof of that.... As for Zero first hand experience with topic at hand, i've served 3 tours in Afghan and i've handed over detainees to to our Miltiary police and Afghan local police.... Was at at the scene when this happened NO, never claimed to be.... Also, those who summon such authority don't actually believe it.Or else they'd be forced to agree with, for example, Howard Zinn's take on war. He was a decorated soldier, after all, and "the troops" always know what's what. Or they'd be compelled to agree with Andrew Bacevich (linked above) a career military man. I read your link it's interesting, But if your asking me do i believe in duty, honor, etc then yes i do, nothing wrong with those morals or values is there....do i believe i'm better than you, NO....i've never stated that nor was it my intention....in fact i've always thought the exact opposite ...up until the late 1990's I've always thought that regular Canadian civilians thought they where better than soldiers, and looked down on us as just dirty grunts, dirty filthy, fowled mouth grunts...that where barely tolerated unless someone needed help... today being a soldier will get you a beer and some conversation....nothing else....And while i've stated how many years of service i have , i'm proud of that, it's not bragging , nor stating i'm better than you or anyone else....so i don't really understand your attack... PS i'm not retired but still serving... Quote We, the willing, led by the unknowing, are doing the impossible for the ungrateful. We have now done so much for so long with so little, we are now capable of doing anything with nothing.
bloodyminded Posted March 11, 2010 Report Posted March 11, 2010 No your right I was not handed over by soldiers to be tortured....neither was this man we are talking about unless you have proof of that.... As for Zero first hand experience with topic at hand, i've served 3 tours in Afghan and i've handed over detainees to to our Miltiary police and Afghan local police.... Was at at the scene when this happened NO, never claimed to be.... I read your link it's interesting, But if your asking me do i believe in duty, honor, etc then yes i do, nothing wrong with those morals or values is there....do i believe i'm better than you, NO....i've never stated that nor was it my intention....in fact i've always thought the exact opposite ...up until the late 1990's I've always thought that regular Canadian civilians thought they where better than soldiers, and looked down on us as just dirty grunts, dirty filthy, fowled mouth grunts...that where barely tolerated unless someone needed help... today being a soldier will get you a beer and some conversation....nothing else....And while i've stated how many years of service i have , i'm proud of that, it's not bragging , nor stating i'm better than you or anyone else....so i don't really understand your attack... PS i'm not retired but still serving... It's not an attack, much less mine. Bacevich's notion of "military fetishism" applies to the American view of their military, which might be slightly more...worshipful. But yes, i think Canadains love their military folks just fine. And that's good, I"m glad for that. I just don't think it should turn into a political football, a "why don't you support the troops?" kind of meaningless nonsense designed to stifle debate over government policy. Rick Mercer pulled this greasy little trick: someone was criticizing the war, and he started shrieking about "the troops." Quote As scarce as truth is, the supply has always been in excess of the demand. --Josh Billings
Army Guy Posted March 11, 2010 Report Posted March 11, 2010 Perhaps you should testify at the Inquiry. Frankly, I find it odd that beatings were also reported to the CDC via phone call. Surely there must have been more than one indident like that and that some calls were made to CDC. Hillier asserted without reservation that it was "ludicrous" that prisoneres were likely tortured I think you misread my post I said the only thing they did "not" do is phone the CDS, it is "not" part of policy or SOP's, You, as a soldier ,were clearly aware of torture incidents going on and your comrads/brothers correctly reported it. It must have been hard to swallow when Hillier used the "ludicrous" word and said he never saw any reports indicating torture. Hmmm...what was he doing while he sat in his office doing his IN Basket. We had hear "rumours" that there was torture going on yes, not in our district or prison nor at our police detachment we used So lets dispell that right now....Is that what we are down to now is romours....do we make foreign policy decissions on RUMOURS, i hope not.... As for Gen Hillier said or did, you ask him....oh wait you don't trust him he's a CDS ...I trust him, and will continue to trust him until it's proven.... Quote We, the willing, led by the unknowing, are doing the impossible for the ungrateful. We have now done so much for so long with so little, we are now capable of doing anything with nothing.
Army Guy Posted March 11, 2010 Report Posted March 11, 2010 Go read Army Guys stuff.....you're in such awe of him. Ask him for proof. He is apparently aware of the torture....and wrote about it. If you have any trouble reading through it, get back to us. I've read my stuff over twice now , i might be a little slow, but show me where i said i was aware of the torture.....and wrote about it.... Quote We, the willing, led by the unknowing, are doing the impossible for the ungrateful. We have now done so much for so long with so little, we are now capable of doing anything with nothing.
Army Guy Posted March 11, 2010 Report Posted March 11, 2010 It's not an attack, much less mine . Army Guy was not handed over by Canadian soldiers to be tortured by Afghan authorities. He has had zero "first-hand experience with the topic at hand."Anyway, summoning the authority of "the troops" is just "military fetishism I see, well explain it to me if it's not an attack then what...Your pissed because one poster likes what i posted.... Bacevich's notion of "military fetishism" applies to the American view of their military, which might be slightly more...worshipful. But yes, i think Canadains love their military folks just fine. And that's good, I"m glad for that. I just don't think it should turn into a political football, a "why don't you support the troops?" kind of meaningless nonsense designed to stifle debate over government policy. I see troops arn't allow to use thier experience or knowledge of the military in a debate or to make political pionts, thats just for everyone else to do...fair enough...but once you drag the military troops into a conversation and it does not put them in a good light then Yes i will vioce my opinion and try to debate the differences....And in this post the conversation has swayed many times to slight the troops....policy is not the main topic being discussed although it is the main topic.... Quote We, the willing, led by the unknowing, are doing the impossible for the ungrateful. We have now done so much for so long with so little, we are now capable of doing anything with nothing.
Born Free Posted March 11, 2010 Report Posted March 11, 2010 (edited) I think you misread my post I said the only thing they did "not" do is phone the CDS, it is "not" part of policy or SOP's, We had hear "rumours" that there was torture going on yes, not in our district or prison nor at our police detachment we used So lets dispell that right now....Is that what we are down to now is romours....do we make foreign policy decissions on RUMOURS, i hope not.... Well you did previously state without equivocation.... "in fact our soldiers followed protocal and once they found out he was beaten, they retreived him ASAP....and filled a report detailing the beating"... That's NOT a rumour. Its first hand knowledge on your part. Ergo, Hillier either should have known this or he was too busy shining his shoes and if you still trust him...you are willfully turning blind eye to the matter. As old Ronnie Raegan once said...."Trust but Verify"...you dont seem to be willing to do any verification.... I dont trust DND's whan they make assholean statements sich as the one that Hillier made. I trust Prime Ministers even less given the past actions of our dishonourable Jean Chretien and Brian Mulroney. Cheers, Edited March 11, 2010 by Born Free Quote
Born Free Posted March 11, 2010 Report Posted March 11, 2010 I see troops arn't allow to use thier experience or knowledge of the military in a debate or to make political pionts,... I see us inexperienced civilians are not qualified (according to you) to draw any inferences or conclusions on this matter. Make all the political points you see fit. This issue isnt about military procedure or protocal. Its about getting behind the events and decisions made by the government and the top brass regarding prisoner torture. I definitely dont need 30 years in the Army to understand when I'm being lied to. Quote
Born Free Posted March 11, 2010 Report Posted March 11, 2010 I've read my stuff over twice now , i might be a little slow, but show me where i said i was aware of the torture.....and wrote about it.... "in fact our soldiers followed protocal and once they found out he was beaten, they retreived him ASAP....and filled a report detailing the beating"... Cheers, Quote
Born Free Posted March 11, 2010 Report Posted March 11, 2010 ...up until the late 1990's I've always thought that regular Canadian civilians thought they where better than soldiers, and looked down on us as just dirty grunts, dirty filthy, fowled mouth grunts... Thats a big brush you have in your hands. On the other hand, you again are overlooking the ugly Somalia incident and how it was not dealt with by the Airborne and the DND. That might account for the increase in civilian disdain for the troops during that time. Quote
eyeball Posted March 11, 2010 Report Posted March 11, 2010 No whe don't know that at all. There are no allegations of torture BY CSIS or their complicity in anyone who is alledged to have been tortured. Well maybe you're ignorant of the facts but everybody else knows CSIS is alleged to have been complicit in the torture of prisoners that were captured by our soldiers. Quote I said now watch what you say they'll be calling you a radical, a liberal, oh fanatical criminal
Mr.Canada Posted March 11, 2010 Report Posted March 11, 2010 You learned nothing. 35 is your IQ. I'm betting your three most difficult years in High School were grade 10. Go read Army Guys stuff.....you're in such awe of him. Ask him for proof. He is apparently aware of the torture....and wrote about it. If you have any trouble reading through it, get back to us. More ad hominem attacks. I am 100% correct in this thread it would seem. Quote "You are scum for insinuating that isn't the case you snake." -William Ashley Canadian Immigration Reform Blog
bloodyminded Posted March 11, 2010 Report Posted March 11, 2010 Well maybe you're ignorant of the facts but everybody else knows CSIS is alleged to have been complicit in the torture of prisoners that were captured by our soldiers. Yeah....it was sort of the original point of this thread, I thought...... Quote As scarce as truth is, the supply has always been in excess of the demand. --Josh Billings
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