Killer Whale - literally

[JerrySeinfeld]

Or maybe we should blow up seaworld.

I don't like these animals being used for shows. I don't mind zoos with really nice animal quarters (although even then they make me sad), but it seems like the shows take it a little too far.

Thoughts?

Edited March 3, 2010 by JerrySeinfeld

[August1991]

Jerry, does this really matter? If someone wants to play with killer sharks and then gets eaten by one, should I really care?

Dumb, pointless thread - IMHO.

[Bonam]

The aquariums that I have seen also have really nice facilities for the animals. Shows are part of how they raise money for their operations, which allows them to have those nice facilities. The shows are not harmful to the animals, in fact it at least gets them a little exercise so they stay healthy, rather than just lazily floating around all the time between feeding sessions. I see no problem.

[Wilber]

Jerry, does this really matter? If someone wants to play with killer sharks and then gets eaten by one, should I really care?

Dumb, pointless thread - IMHO.

They are dolphins and don't eat people.

[JerrySeinfeld]

The aquariums that I have seen also have really nice facilities for the animals. Shows are part of how they raise money for their operations, which allows them to have those nice facilities. The shows are not harmful to the animals, in fact it at least gets them a little exercise so they stay healthy, rather than just lazily floating around all the time between feeding sessions. I see no problem.

Do you think a killer whale is actually happy in a small tank? They aren't like dogs - domesticated for thousands of years.

[Smallc]

I've heard that if he's released, he'll die from the bacteria in the open water.

[August1991]

Do you think a killer whale is actually happy in a small tank? They aren't like dogs - domesticated for thousands of years.

Who cares? You?

Jerry, gimme a break. Why did you start this thread?

[msj]

Yep, thread's so pointless that someone will post to it twice within 4 hours.

Let the whales go. Well, no, keep 'em till they die and stop breeding them and/or capturing their replacements.

But I vote with my wallet and don't go to these types of places in the first place.

Too bad we can't vote with our tax dollars, but, that's democracy.

Edited March 3, 2010 by msj

[bush_cheney2004]

....Let the whales go. Well, no, keep 'em till they die and stop breeding them and/or capturing their replacements.

Poor options....the actual business model and international law require that Tillikum be kept in captivity as Sea World's most prized bull (breeding) Orca, as it is illegal to "capture" a replacement. In this light, the corporate decision to move forward with a safer Orca show makes sense. One Shamu sells a lot more tickets than a dozen Flippers.

Edited March 3, 2010 by bush_cheney2004

[msj]

Poor options....the actual business model and international law require that Tillikum be kept in captivity as Sea World's most prized bull (breeding) Orca, as it is illegal to "capture" a replacement. In this light, the corporate decision to move forward with a safer Orca show makes sense. One Shamu sells a lot more tickets than a dozen Flippers.

Couple of things here:

1) I heard a representative from Sea World on the radio yesterday state that they do have the option to capture more whales but since it's not popular few do it anymore. I don't know if this is a matter of ignoring international law or that international law allows such things, but there it is.

2) I have to question your reading abilities.

Clearly I state that returning any whales to the wild is not an option.

I also clearly imply that in order to no longer have whales in captivity we would have to wait them out until they die in captivity - hence the need to stop capturing them and stop breeding them.

Exactly how Sea World goes about doing this is not the kind of detail I had any intention on exploring.

[M.Dancer]

In the early 70s I had a pair of sandals made form whale leather.

Best darn sandals I ever had.

Just sayin'

[msj]

In the early 70s I had a pair of sandals made form whale leather.

Best darn sandals I ever had.

Just sayin'

Good for you.

I have no problem with hunting whales if it is sustainable and we're using them for meat, oil, leather etc.

Fish and meat are part of my diet and I wouldn't mind trying whale.

Using them for "education" and for show is a different matter.

[Sir Bandelot]

Any nice looking tank is still a tank.

Free Willy

[Guest TrueMetis]

Any nice looking tank is still a tank.

Free Willy

To die because they can't hunt.

[bush_cheney2004]

Clearly I state that returning any whales to the wild is not an option.

It is an option...just a poor one. Apparently my "reading abilities" are just fine.

I also clearly imply that in order to no longer have whales in captivity we would have to wait them out until they die in captivity - hence the need to stop capturing them and stop breeding them.

"Clearly imply" is an oxymoron.

Exactly how Sea World goes about doing this is not the kind of detail I had any intention on exploring.

..and neither will Sea World. Tickets can be purchased here:

http://www.seaworld.com/sitepage.aspx?PageID=313

[ToadBrother]

http://www.seaworld.com/sitepage.aspx?PageID=313

Perhaps they can offer an attraction. For $10,000, you can watch the killer whale eat the trainer...

My mind boggles at the whole thing, frankly. Don't get me wrong. I'm no fan of the whale hunt, and I think killer whales are noble creatures, yadda yadda yadda. But there ain't enough money in the world to convince me to get in a tank with one. I watched a rather shockingly uncensored wildlife show years ago where a killer whale used the waves to intentionally beach himself to grab a seal on the shore. The waves carried the whale, with seal in mouth, back out into the water. This told me two things; 1. these are incredibly smart and talented hunters and 2. they'd probably have few qualms turning me into a meal if I was in the wrong place at the wrong time.

The whole forty year long campaign of turning them from the infamous and incredible killer whale into the Sea World-styled "orca" (buy your stuffed animal look-alike at the gift shop) may have aided in conservation efforts, but it has convinced an entire generation, including the people who should know better, that these animals give a crap about us. Frankly, I'm rooting for Tillikum myself.

Edited March 3, 2010 by ToadBrother

[bush_cheney2004]

Perhaps they can offer an attraction. For $10,000, you can watch the killer whale eat the trainer...

Well, even if they don't eat the trainer, it's a very good show. Much better than barking seals.

...The waves carried the whale, with seal in mouth, back out into the water. This told me two things; 1. these are incredibly smart and talented hunters and 2. they'd probably have few qualms turning me into a meal if I was in the wrong place at the wrong time.

But to be clear, humans are not in their normal food chain. And humans sure as hell kill/eat far more whales than vice-versa.

The whole forty year long campaign of turning them from the infamous and incredible killer whale into the Sea World-styled "orca" (buy your stuffed animal look-alike at the gift shop) may have aided in conservation efforts, but it has convinced an entire generation, including the people who should know better, that these animals give a crap about us. Frankly, I'm rooting for Tillikum myself.

As am I...because it is the raw power and "wild" aspects that make them interesting. This time, beauty did not kill the beast.

[ToadBrother]

But to be clear, humans are not in their normal food chain. And humans sure as hell kill/eat far more whales than vice-versa.

But they are an apex predator (like wolves). In general terms it means that while humans may not make up a normal part of their diet, it also means that they are sufficiently opportunistic that, under the right conditions, they'd make a grab. It doesn't happen often, and because humans and killer whales do not share the same environment as frequently as cougars or wolves, that it has never happened in the wild, but I'm not going to lay any bets against it happening. Tillikum, in particular, has been implicated in three deaths. Now maybe that makes him the killer whale equivalent of a mean rotten sonofabitch, but if one killer whale isn't allergic to killing people, there are likely others.

Wolves have been known to attack humans, so have bears, so have lions, tigers, cougars and all sorts of apex predators. It's that human arrogance that convinces us so often that we somehow walk through the world with horse shoes up our butts.

Edited March 3, 2010 by ToadBrother

[msj]

It is an option...just a poor one. Apparently my "reading abilities" are just fine.

"Clearly imply" is an oxymoron.

..and neither will Sea World. Tickets can be purchased here:

http://www.seaworld.com/sitepage.aspx?PageID=313

[bush_cheney2004]

But they are an apex predator (like wolves). In general terms it means that while humans may not make up a normal part of their diet, it also means that they are sufficiently opportunistic that, under the right conditions, they'd make a grab.

Fair enough, but I can tell you from experience with Atlantic and Pacific swim calls for the crew that nobody was worried about the cetaceans...it was all about sharks. Lookouts with M14 rifles were happy to shoot sharks but not whales.

It doesn't happen often, and because humans and killer whales do not share the same environment as frequently as cougars or wolves, that it has never happened in the wild, but I'm not going to lay any bets against it happening. Tillikum, in particular, has been implicated in three deaths. Now maybe that makes him the killer whale equivalent of a mean rotten sonofabitch, but if one killer whale isn't allergic to killing people, there are likely others.

I'm sure there are, but house pets (i.e. dogs) have killed far more people on a regular basis. Most people have never seen these creatures in the wild, where they do some pretty brutal things to each other as well as their prey.

[M.Dancer]

Lookouts with M14 rifles were happy to shoot sharks but not whales.

Surely you are dating yourself?

M-14? 7.62? When did you serve? 1968?

[bush_cheney2004]

Surely you are dating yourself?

M-14? 7.62? When did you serve? 1968?

M-14s and Remington 870 shotguns were preferred (on subs) over the M-16's smaller round. Yes...I am old!

http://webzoom.freewebs.com/henry0077/Scan78.jpg

[M.Dancer]

Gotta love the bell bottom jeans...

[bush_cheney2004]

Gotta love the bell bottom jeans...

Easy on...and easy off!

[eyeball]

I saw 5 orca just this morning and there were another 7 or 8 transients in the area. They stopped to size up an adult gray whale but I guess they thought better of it and moved on. It's early for gray calves in the area but there's plenty of sea-lions and seals around.

I've had numerous close encounters with orca over the years in large and small boats and I certainly wouldn't want to be in the water with them around. I had about 8 surface all around me once when I was rowing home in a little 6' dinghy I had. I think I know what an oyster on a half shell feels like now. You also see lots of kayaks hereabouts, I guess to an orca they'd be crunchy on the outside and chewy in the middle. Legend has it that orca won't eat people but given they've been seen eating moose, bear, deer and wolves on occasion I fail to see why they wouldn't eat a person. I often think it's only a matter of time.

The most amazing thing I saw was when a large pod came straight at me bow on and passed directly underneath me while I was fishing with 6 lines and at least 130 flashers and hooks out. I freaked and figured I was going to lose everything and the sounder's shallow water alarm was ringing away but they surfaced immediately behind me and I didn't lose so much as a single hook. There were literally hundreds of other boats fishing for sockeye with the same type of gear in the area. The fishing was hot and heavy but the whales must have been transients - they didn't seem to be interested in them and the fish never stopped biting. Apparently around Langara Island in Dixon Entrance orca seem to know when the bite is on for chinook and are well known there for stripping every single fish off a boat's gear.