Is it time Federalize/Nationalize Minimum Wage?

[Michael Hardner]

Businsess is business and why should people pay inflated prices for goods and services just because do gooders believe its the right thing to do.

People already pay inflated prices, as I pointed out, and they don't seem to mind.

What is cost of Living? Increasing Technology has seen increased production without the manpower. We live in a greed exploitive environment where Government is leading the charge.

So - the answer to my question ?

[bloodyminded]

If you agree with me, then you agree that getting a higher wage is largely up to the worker.

No...I agreed with you that as it stands for many low-wage workers, they have roughly zero negotiating power.

You say that a worker should get more experience, training, etc., to be able to negotiate a higher wage...but this is a tacit concession that they are not currently in this position.

It's rather moot anyway, for a lot of jobs. Having "experience" working at Wal-Mart means, if you re-apply there at a later date, you will be paid forty cents an hour more than you might have otherwise. And even THAT is not a "negotiation": it is set down in front of you to take or leave. Period.

Edited February 23, 2010 by bloodyminded

[whowhere]

People already pay inflated prices, as I pointed out, and they don't seem to mind.

I mind!

So - the answer to my question ?

Because governments are cowards to go after the businesses for being greedy you think dictating higher minimum wages is the solution to getting more money out of these businesses? Minimum wage is a government conspiracy because it hikes retail prices. Higher retail prices is higher PST on purchases. In anycase if US states are functioning with minimum wages at 7.25 so can ontario and any other province.

[ToadBrother]

This is effing Ridiculous. 6.85 to 10.25? $3.40 increase, a fifty percent increase, come on. Minimum wage should be indexed to inflation not some arbitrary idealistic do gooder agenda. The reality of this minimum wage increase in Ontario has only resulted in Higher retail costs, and a choked economy. Its time the Federal Government steps in and dictates a realistic minimum wage to create a competive and a realistic economic envirnoment with the US. Why should some guy busting his ass at an auto parts manufacturer make the same as someone at a retail store register. Back in the day it used to be you got paid for what did. Now, you get paid for what you can exploit and cheat. To add insult, this auto parts worker can't afford to buy anything because gas and retail prices have been inflated so much he is now the working poor. The only solution now for this Autoparts worker is to get a ski mask, go into a tim Hortons and take back the money he is being raped out of by the Province.

Canada's economy is broken and it needs to understand activity is what sustains an economy not choking it to death through inflated cash grabbing and taking spending money away from people who do real work and not the fluff jobs the lazy gravitate towards.

We have this thing called a Constitution, which pretty much puts labour in the hands of the Provinces. I guess you'd better get in line behind myata in the long, long lineup of those demanding constitutional changes.

[Michael Hardner]

I mind!

Well, you're in the minority. Malls have done pretty well since they became popular in the 1970s or so.

Because governments are cowards to go after the businesses for being greedy you think dictating higher minimum wages is the solution to getting more money out of these businesses? Minimum wage is a government conspiracy because it hikes retail prices. Higher retail prices is higher PST on purchases. In anycase if US states are functioning with minimum wages at 7.25 so can ontario and any other province.

So you want the government to go after businesses, and make it easier to unionize but not raise the minimum wage ?

Your position is more complicated than most peoples'.

[whowhere]

No...I agreed with you that as it stands for many low-wage workers, they have roughly zero negotiating power.

You say that a worker should get more experience, training, etc., to be able to negotiate a higher wage...but this is a tacit concession that they are not currently in this position.

It's rather moot anyway, for a lot of jobs. Having "experience" working at Wal-Mart means, if you re-apply there at a later date, you will be paid forty cents an hour more than you might have otherwise. And even THAT is not a "negotiation": it is set down in front of you to take or leave. Period.

Your negotiotion is with your feet. People need to feel confident they can replace their jobs and leverage them to higher employment. Not happening because politicians, government workers, and labour lawyers have banded together to look out for big business. Higher minimum wage will not create a leveraged environment for worker mobility.

Businsess of a certain size should be rewarded tax credits for paying people if they don't they get dinged with a surtax. Not hard to create an intelligent tax system if there is a will to do it.

[Topaz]

So what do you guys think when the politicans increase their wages and within 24 hours of it being brought forward in Parliament. I say that Canadians should have the same benefits and wages as politicans, so when are THEY going to cut back????

[Michael Hardner]

So what do you guys think when the politicans increase their wages and within 24 hours of it being brought forward in Parliament. I say that Canadians should have the same benefits and wages as politicans, so when are THEY going to cut back????

I don't see why an MP salary shouldn't be tied to the same COLA increases as minimum wage. But then again - HAVE they ?

I've been accused of being a bleeding heart more than the other way, but read this anyway:

Today's MPs earn $147,700 a year. That's a 78 per cent salary jump in just two decades

CBC Article from 2007

Seems unreasonable, doesn't it ? An almost 80% increase ? Do you think that MPs offer the same increases to the poorest earners ?

Let's find out:

1987 Ontario minimum wage was $4.35 - according to this report - and was $8 in 2007 - according to this report which is an increase of about 84%. So the poor did better than MPs it seems.

And both groups seem to have done better than the CPI over 20 years. I couldn't find a good calculator, but my estimate is about 60%.

[EyesWideOpen]

In addition, having one minimum wage for the whole province doesn't really make sense. Obviously, it costs more to live in Toronto, than it does in Kenora.

Instead, we should have one national minimum wage matrix, that varies based on the cost of living in that city. In addition, I think it is quite reasonable to have two different sets of wages, for adults, and kids making part-time money after school and on weekends.

While globalization has brought some positive changes, one of the biggest negatives is this sudden desire for all countries to lower wages, lower benefits, lower environmental and ethical regulations, lower taxes etc, so that we can compete internationally. It's leaving all federal governments with a massive shortfall of money, and a need to start slashing social programs. The world has been moving backwards in the last ten years instead of forwards.

I think what you may be talking about is the "living wage' that many anti-poverty groups tout.

[whowhere]

I think what you may be talking about is the "living wage' that many anti-poverty groups tout.

http://aspe.hhs.gov/poverty/09extension.shtml

The 2009 Poverty Guidelines for the

48 Contiguous States and the District of Columbia Persons in family Poverty guideline

1 $10,830

2 14,570

3 18,310

4 22,050

5 25,790

6 29,530

7 33,270

8 37,010

For families with more than 8 persons, add $3,740 for each additional person.

2009 Poverty Guidelines for

Alaska Persons in family Poverty guideline

1 $13,530

2009 Poverty Guidelines for

Hawaii Persons in family Poverty guideline

1 $12,460

These are figures are generated by the US government. Anyone have Stats generated by the Canadian Government? Get the calculator out and multiply 7.25 US minimum wage X 40 and you will get 15000. An individual working in the US for minimum wage would NOT be considered in poverty.

Would or Could the same be said about someone in Canada?

Edited February 23, 2010 by whowhere

[bush_cheney2004]

These are figures are generated by the US government. Anyone have Stats generated by the Canadian Government? Get the calculator out and multiply 7.25 US minimum wage X 40 and you will get 15000. An individual working in the US for minimum wage would NOT be considered in poverty.

Yes they would, depending on the state, which sets program qualifications as a multiple of the basic federal level.

Would or Could the same be said about someone in Canada?

No....Canada is not the USA....just sayin'.

[Renegade]

The issue, though, is about the level of minimum wages, and not some problem that there are people who earn those wages. There will always be people at the bottom. How much should they earn ?

They should earn exactly as much as they can command by offering their services.

[whowhere]

They should earn exactly as much as they can command by offering their services.

And Ontario should not dictate minimum wage that is 3.00 more than neighboring US states. If minimum wage workers want to earn more as you say they should command more on their own. Contrary to what do gooders think, this $3.00 is being raped out of the consumers everytime they go to the grocery store, hardware store, whereever, translating into less money for other things. Why should consumers be forced to subsidize the lazy and inept of society.

[bloodyminded]

And Ontario should not dictate minimum wage that is 3.00 more than neighboring US states. If minimum wage workers want to earn more as you say they should command more on their own. Contrary to what do gooders think, this $3.00 is being raped out of the consumers everytime they go to the grocery store, hardware store, whereever, translating into less money for other things. Why should consumers be forced to subsidize the lazy and inept of society.

By "lazy and inept of society" you mean precisely "those who don't earn much money."

An elitist view. Classism is alive and well.

[Michael Hardner]

They should earn exactly as much as they can command by offering their services.

And that answer doesn't fly with most people, nor does it lead to a fair society as we've seen in the past. Sure, it's a mathematically pure solution, but so is mandating all people to make the exact same.

[Renegade]

And that answer doesn't fly with most people, nor does it lead to a fair society as we've seen in the past. Sure, it's a mathematically pure solution, but so is mandating all people to make the exact same.

"fair" according to who? You?

[Renegade]

No...I agreed with you that as it stands for many low-wage workers, they have roughly zero negotiating power.

You say that a worker should get more experience, training, etc., to be able to negotiate a higher wage...but this is a tacit concession that they are not currently in this position.

It's rather moot anyway, for a lot of jobs. Having "experience" working at Wal-Mart means, if you re-apply there at a later date, you will be paid forty cents an hour more than you might have otherwise. And even THAT is not a "negotiation": it is set down in front of you to take or leave. Period.

They are not in the position to negotiate higher wages because either they are unwilling to make the changes required or for whatever reason are unable to do so. They don't need to take that forty cents an hour more at Walmart, they could move to a location or profession which has a scarcity of workers.

Edited February 23, 2010 by Renegade

[Michael Hardner]

"fair" according to who? You?

I don`t think it`s fair. Most people, I would say, don`t want to turn back the clock to the days of serfdom either. Wealth and power accumulates naturally. If you want to get rid of the minimum wage, then you should also get rid of inheritances and the other advantages that the wealthy pass on.

Let`s have everybody start out at exactly the same level, hmmm ? That`s mathematically fair too. Do you like the idea ?

[Topaz]

They are not in the position to negotiate higher wages because either they are unwilling to make the changes required or for whatever reason are unable to do so. They don't need to take that forty cents an hour more at Walmart, they could move to a location or profession which has a scarcity of workers.

You know, I just hated when someone says that people should move to find work. If they don't have a job then there's lack or shortgage of money to move. It all depends were you live, large cities have more opportunites to find work, small towns and cities, especially the large unemployment, it isn't that easy. Yeah alot of them are being retrained for future jobs, but that's the future and the jobs aren't there and you have the over 50 that no one wants to hire.

[whowhere]

You know, I just hated when someone says that people should move to find work. If they don't have a job then there's lack or shortgage of money to move. It all depends were you live, large cities have more opportunites to find work, small towns and cities, especially the large unemployment, it isn't that easy. Yeah alot of them are being retrained for future jobs, but that's the future and the jobs aren't there and you have the over 50 that no one wants to hire.

Combine that with mortgages breaking penalties. Back 10 years ago mortgages were written with a 3 month interest penalty if you broke it. So if lower mortgage rates appear you refinanced into those rates. Now if you break mortgage for whatever reason you will be paying upwards towards 10000. Another way the corrupt conservatives have screwed Canadians over. You have a right to stay in a region and call it home but if you are forced to move because of employment or whatever, all that equity will be stolen from you by the banks and real estate brokers. Wasn't that way ten years ago and you can thank the conservatives for that.

[August1991]

And Ontario should not dictate minimum wage that is 3.00 more than neighboring US states. If minimum wage workers want to earn more as you say they should command more on their own. Contrary to what do gooders think, this $3.00 is being raped out of the consumers everytime they go to the grocery store, hardware store, whereever, translating into less money for other things. Why should consumers be forced to subsidize the lazy and inept of society.

It is wrong to argue that a higher minimum wage automatically raises the cost of all services.

If I understand your argument, whowhere, you would prefer that the federal government legislate minimum wage because, for some reason, you believe that this would mean a lower minimum wage. Why do you believe that? Why is the federal government any more enlightened than a provincial government?

----

It seems to me that in general, if government arbitrarily raises the price of something, fewer people will want to buy it and more people will want to sell it. In the case of a minimum wage, this means unemployment.

But consider something else more pernicious: what would happen if the government made it illegal to buy or sell a car for less than $30,000? People who drive a Prius, Mercedes or Accura would be unaffected by this law. The law would affect drivers of a Hyundai Accent.

If governments were serious about helping working people with low wages, there are far better ways of doing it than raising the minimum wage.

[ToadBrother]

It seems to me that in general, if government arbitrarily raises the price of something, fewer people will want to buy it and more people will want to sell it. In the case of a minimum wage, this means unemployment.

But consider something else more pernicious: what would happen if the government made it illegal to buy or sell a car for less than $30,000? People who drive a Prius, Mercedes or Accura would be unaffected by this law. The law would affect drivers of a Hyundai Accent.

If governments were serious about helping working people with low wages, there are far better ways of doing it than raising the minimum wage.

Surely, however, some sort of minimum wage is necessary, and surely, as inflation increases cost, from time to time you need to raise the minimum wage.

Or is minimum wage the next target for Canadian conservatives?

[William Ashley]

You should have to negotiate higher wages not the government doing it for you.

Take a look at history and why it exists - but yeah as I said, I don't support minimum wage controls.

Canada's politician are so corrupt, stupid, and clueless they are making Canada a degenerate country. A minimum wage in Ontario that is 3 dollars more than its neighbor US states is ridiculous.

The Canadian dollar is close to the USD now, but this has not been true ongoing - as it was as low as 60% the USD not too many years ago - guess it was a good deal when minimum wage was 7$ back then in Ontario and it was about the same in the US.

All this has doen is inflated retail prices stagnated the local economy and scare away US tourists.

Nah purchasing and profit is what is increasing the prices of consumers. Walmart is a multibillion dollar business and the Waltons are some of the richest people in the world - they have their profit for a reason.

Congress has enacted a minimum wage law, Canada's parliament can do the same.

Why?

[Bonam]

Regardless of the whole debate over the benefit of having or not having a minimum wage and of the economic impacts, the simple answer to the original question is NO. There is no reason that minimum wage should be set by one central government, thousands of kilometers removed from some of its provinces. Minimum wage, if it exists, should be set on a local basis. If the intent is for minimum wage to represent an amount of income allowing one to live above poverty, then it should be related to the cost of living in a certain location. If that is the intent of minimum wage, then it should be higher for someone living in Vancouver, for example, than for someone living in a less expensive area, to reflect that.

Besides the obvious argument of minimum wage needing to be different in different locations, there is no reason to concentrate more power in a central body and every reason not to. Don't like how low the minimum wage is in your province? Go to another. Feel annoyed at the high minimum wage in your province and the high prices you perceive it causes? Move to another. Making it all centralized eliminates this option.

[whowhere]

It is wrong to argue that a higher minimum wage automatically raises the cost of all services.

If I understand your argument, whowhere, you would prefer that the federal government legislate minimum wage because, for some reason, you believe that this would mean a lower minimum wage. Why do you believe that? Why is the federal government any more enlightened than a provincial government?

----

It seems to me that in general, if government arbitrarily raises the price of something, fewer people will want to buy it and more people will want to sell it. In the case of a minimum wage, this means unemployment.

But consider something else more pernicious: what would happen if the government made it illegal to buy or sell a car for less than $30,000? People who drive a Prius, Mercedes or Accura would be unaffected by this law. The law would affect drivers of a Hyundai Accent.

If governments were serious about helping working people with low wages, there are far better ways of doing it than raising the minimum wage.

Now you are talking nonsense. All I am saying is Ontario is economically imbalanced to its US neighbor states. If you want a global economy you have to act like a global economy. That means being competitive locally and globally. All minimum wage is doing is overinflating retail prices and stealing money from those who do real work.