Is it time Federalize/Nationalize Minimum Wage?

[whowhere]

Canada is being made uncompetitive by out of touch Provincial Politicians.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fair_Minimum_Wage_Act_of_2007

$7.25 per hour an hour is the federally mandated minimum wage.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._minimum_wages

Michigan $7.40

New York $7.25

New Jersey $7.25

Maine $7.50

http://www.hrmguide.net/canada/rewards/ontario-minimum-wage.htm

The minimum wage had been unchanged in Ontario between 1995 and 2004.The province started implementing annual by raising the general minimum wage from $6.85 in 2004 to $8.00 in 2007 and $8.75 in 2008. The minimum wage will be raised to $10.25 by 2010. By next year increases will have totalled $3.40 (50 per cent) since 2004.

This is effing Ridiculous. 6.85 to 10.25? $3.40 increase, a fifty percent increase, come on. Minimum wage should be indexed to inflation not some arbitrary idealistic do gooder agenda. The reality of this minimum wage increase in Ontario has only resulted in Higher retail costs, and a choked economy. Its time the Federal Government steps in and dictates a realistic minimum wage to create a competive and a realistic economic envirnoment with the US. Why should some guy busting his ass at an auto parts manufacturer make the same as someone at a retail store register. Back in the day it used to be you got paid for what did. Now, you get paid for what you can exploit and cheat. To add insult, this auto parts worker can't afford to buy anything because gas and retail prices have been inflated so much he is now the working poor. The only solution now for this Autoparts worker is to get a ski mask, go into a tim Hortons and take back the money he is being raped out of by the Province.

Canada's economy is broken and it needs to understand activity is what sustains an economy not choking it to death through inflated cash grabbing and taking spending money away from people who do real work and not the fluff jobs the lazy gravitate towards.

[Alta4ever]

The Last thing we need is more centralization. If you don't like where minimum wage is in your province then vote the bums out. There are already enough decisions made by MPs who know nothing of the regions out side of their homes and Ottawa, to make something like this work. Not to mention that the cost of living varies greatly from place to place. This would be a horrible thing to do.

[William Ashley]

Why not incorporate in the US then, and save the trouble? It costs more to live in Canada.

Subsistence prices of goods are cheaper in the US

Even with an increased dollar prices havn't came down in Canada - they have gone up.

Personally though, I don't support a minimum wage - I think people should be able to work where they want and for what they are willing to work for.

Edited February 23, 2010 by William Ashley

[CANADIEN]

This is effing Ridiculous. 6.85 to 10.25? $3.40 increase, a fifty percent increase, come on. Minimum wage should be indexed to inflation not some arbitrary idealistic do gooder agenda.

What was ridiculouswas the 8 year freeze. The number of working people using food banks iINCREASED during that period.

Economic conditions vary from a province to another, and each provincial legislature is the best equipped to determine what minimum salry should be.

[whowhere]

Why not incorporate in the US then, and save the trouble? It costs more to live in Canada.

Subsistence prices of goods are cheaper in the US

Even with an increased dollar prices havn't came down in Canada - they have gone up.

Personally though, I don't support a minimum wage - I think people should be able to work where they want and for what they are willing to work for.

You should have to negotiate higher wages not the government doing it for you. Canada's politician are so corrupt, stupid, and clueless they are making Canada a degenerate country. A minimum wage in Ontario that is 3 dollars more than its neighbor US states is ridiculous. All this has doen is inflated retail prices stagnated the local economy and scare away US tourists.

Congress has enacted a minimum wage law, Canada's parliament can do the same.

[Bugs]

Another aspect of the minimum wage is that it destroys a lot of part-time jobs that would otherwise exist.

When I was a kid, when you pulled into a gas station, you got full service, which included windshield wash, and (if requested) an oil check, as well as attend to the tire pressure. The supermarket reguarly had kids packing bags and carrying groceries out to people's cars for them. Bread and milk were delivered to the door. There simply were a bunch of these low-level jobs available for when people needed extra money.

Up until the 1980ies, you could be a cab driver for a $10 license fee, Lots of adults drove cabs on weekends for extra money. Nowadays, it costs you around $1500 to get licensed, and you have to take a course that lasts three or four weeks. Service is far worse, now. Cabbies won't get out of their car to buzz an apt number, for instance.

The idea that every job in society has be capable of supporting a family is nutz.

[Smallc]

Nowadays, it costs you around $1500 to get licensed, and you have to take a course that lasts three or four weeks.

Well, I don't know where you live, but I've been told that in Winnipeg, cab licenses run in the range of $400K.

Edited February 23, 2010 by Smallc

[bloodyminded]

You should have to negotiate higher wages not the government doing it for you.

There are very few minimum-wage jobs (or those slightly over minimum wage) in which you have any power to "negotiate higher wages." It is not an option.

I have heard this notion many times, and I find it almost jaw-dropping.

It's a case where Economic Theory 101 trumps reality itself...in the minds of those making the assertion.

[Renegade]

There are very few minimum-wage jobs (or those slightly over minimum wage) in which you have any power to "negotiate higher wages." It is not an option.

I have heard this notion many times, and I find it almost jaw-dropping.

It's a case where Economic Theory 101 trumps reality itself...in the minds of those making the assertion.

The reason "It is not an option", is because the worker doesn't have other choices and thus lacks negotiating power. The answer is to give themselves more choices. Either by acquiring more skills, working other locations, different hours, etc, a worker can give himself more leverage to negotiate a better wage or change occupation to one that does pay a higher wage.

There is no reality where economics does not apply.

[bloodyminded]

The reason "It is not an option", is because the worker doesn't have other choices and thus lacks negotiating power. The answer is to give themselves more choices. Either by acquiring more skills, working other locations, different hours, etc, a worker can give himself more leverage to negotiate a better wage or change occupation to one that does pay a higher wage.

But that's not the argument to which I was responding. In fact, you are in essence agreeing with me.

There is no reality where economics does not apply.

I didn't say economics doesn't apply. I said oversimplifying theory is not always aligned with reality.

There is no reality to which science does not apply either. That doesn't mean that Intelligent Design is legitimate.

[Michael Hardner]

The reason "It is not an option", is because the worker doesn't have other choices and thus lacks negotiating power. The answer is to give themselves more choices. Either by acquiring more skills, working other locations, different hours, etc, a worker can give himself more leverage to negotiate a better wage or change occupation to one that does pay a higher wage.

There is no reality where economics does not apply.

And then that job goes to ? Answer: Another worker with the same lack of skills. In other words, there is always going to be somebody at the bottom of the ladder, making a minimal wage.

[Michael Hardner]

By the way, even in this recession it's difficult to find jobs offered at minimum wage on the job board in Toronto at HRDC. You can see lots of low paying jobs there, even in this recession.

Here's a job as a cashier at Pizza Pizza - $10/hr.

http://www.jobbank.gc.ca/dispjb_eng.aspx?OrderNum=4832682&Source=JobPosting&CommGrouping=GON033&Keyword=restaurant&Category=6*&OfferpPage=50&Student=No

[whowhere]

The reason "It is not an option", is because the worker doesn't have other choices and thus lacks negotiating power. The answer is to give themselves more choices. Either by acquiring more skills, working other locations, different hours, etc, a worker can give himself more leverage to negotiate a better wage or change occupation to one that does pay a higher wage.

There is no reality where economics does not apply.

In the employment market is I and not we. As for hiking minimum way above neighboring US states has created an economic imbalance. The solution to a sound economy is a legal framework based on right, wrong, and a conviction to see it done. I have seen Ontario at work and I have experienced the entrenched corruption of Ontario. It is easy to see what Ontario is doing with their minimum wage increase and harmonized sales tax pursuit: Veiled Tax increases. These are false initiatives because what it does it creates unemployment, drives up the cost of living relative to the United States, and stips spending power away from people who go out and do real work and not the fluff jobs of pumping gas or standing in Front of a retail Counter.

Every business is unique and all are subject to labour organizing. If you want to help disadvantaged workers make it easier for them to organize unions, protest working conditions, and step out of employment to go on interviews without recourse from tyrannical employers. If there is recourse introduce a fine based punishment system directed towards these low life employers. Establish a Licensing schemes to limit the amount of a particular business in an area could help to sustain business and avoid saturation.

In anycase Income is the responsiblitity and the domain of the Federal Government and consumption and property taxes that of the provincial government. The Federal Government has a responsibility to look outside of the borders of a province and correct economic imbalances that exist. Ontario is out of sync with its neighboring US states.

Of course this is a fleeting rant, because Canada and the people in it are aspiring communists and not interested in democracy, freedom and the rule of law.

[whowhere]

By the way, even in this recession it's difficult to find jobs offered at minimum wage on the job board in Toronto at HRDC. You can see lots of low paying jobs there, even in this recession.

Here's a job as a cashier at Pizza Pizza - $10/hr.

http://www.jobbank.gc.ca/dispjb_eng.aspx?OrderNum=4832682&Source=JobPosting&CommGrouping=GON033&Keyword=restaurant&Category=6*&OfferpPage=50&Student=No

You do realize minimum wage in Ontario is 9.50 soon to be 10.25 right?

[KeyStone]

Well, while I agree that Canada should have a federal minimum wage, it's probably not for the same reasons as you.

Jacking the minimum wage as high as the Ontario Liberals did in such a short time was somewhat of a mistake.

But, the real mistake was to not raise it earlier, such that small businesses had time to adapt, and the people of Ontario received a decent wage much earlier. Boosting labour costs by almost 50% in a short time period is not fair to small business.

In addition, having one minimum wage for the whole province doesn't really make sense. Obviously, it costs more to live in Toronto, than it does in Kenora.

Now, the problem that you address (auto-workers making the same as unskilled workers), is generally something that is helped by minimum wage. If employers have to pay $10 for unskilled labour, then they have to pay a premium to get skilled workers. So, it's really a case of the employer screwing over the workers. Those people should leave and find a different job, since the pay is the same.

The real problem as I see it, with provinces having different minimum wages is that the province can compete for the lowest minimum wage, such that businesses locate in the province with the lowest labour cost. Alberta, for instance, has had a very low minimum wage, (as well as lower taxes), which meant many businesses located there to take advantage of it. As a consequence, other provinces considered lowering their minimum wages to compete. This is not a healthy competition, nor is lowering welfare rates, to encourage people to leave your province (another harmful competition that Alberta leads the way in)

Instead, we should have one national minimum wage matrix, that varies based on the cost of living in that city. In addition, I think it is quite reasonable to have two different sets of wages, for adults, and kids making part-time money after school and on weekends.

While globalization has brought some positive changes, one of the biggest negatives is this sudden desire for all countries to lower wages, lower benefits, lower environmental and ethical regulations, lower taxes etc, so that we can compete internationally. It's leaving all federal governments with a massive shortfall of money, and a need to start slashing social programs. The world has been moving backwards in the last ten years instead of forwards.

[Renegade]

But that's not the argument to which I was responding. In fact, you are in essence agreeing with me.

If you agree with me, then you agree that getting a higher wage is largely up to the worker.

[Michael Hardner]

You do realize minimum wage in Ontario is 9.50 soon to be 10.25 right?

I knew that it was under $10.

[Renegade]

And then that job goes to ? Answer: Another worker with the same lack of skills. In other words, there is always going to be somebody at the bottom of the ladder, making a minimal wage.

Sure. So what? There is no issue where a minimium wage job is occupied by a worker who then transitions to a higher wage job. Students do it all the time. The issue is only with workers who do not transition. My contention is that where workers do not transition to a higher wage, they need to look at themselves at what changes they need to make in order to generate higher wages and not look to government to impose it for them.

[Michael Hardner]

These are false initiatives because what it does it creates unemployment, drives up the cost of living relative to the United States, and stips spending power away from people who go out and do real work and not the fluff jobs of pumping gas or standing in Front of a retail Counter.

Is there unemployment at the lowest wage levels though ? And how are you sure that higher wages cause cost of living increases, as opposed to being an effect of those increases ?

Ontario is out of sync with its neighboring US states.

Of course this is a fleeting rant, because Canada and the people in it are aspiring communists and not interested in democracy, freedom and the rule of law.

I'm trying to reconcile this excerpt of yours with the statement you made: "If you want to help disadvantaged workers make it easier for them to organize unions"

[Michael Hardner]

Sure. So what? There is no issue where a minimium wage job is occupied by a worker who then transitions to a higher wage job. Students do it all the time. The issue is only with workers who do not transition.

The issue, though, is about the level of minimum wages, and not some problem that there are people who earn those wages. There will always be people at the bottom. How much should they earn ?

[whowhere]

Is there unemployment at the lowest wage levels though ? And how are you sure that higher wages cause cost of living increases, as opposed to being an effect of those increases ?

I'm trying to reconcile this excerpt of yours with the statement you made: "If you want to help disadvantaged workers make it easier for them to organize unions"

have you gone to get a haircut, buy groceries not advertized on sale? This is what this minimum wage has accomplished - Inflated retail costs. Yes a disdavantaged person needs to be empowered to lift himself up. Hiking the minimum wage without seeing increases in the non retail sectors is economic stupidity.

[Michael Hardner]

have you gone to get a haircut, buy groceries not advertized on sale? This is what this minimum wage has accomplished - Inflated retail costs. Yes a disdavantaged person needs to be empowered to lift himself up. Hiking the minimum wage without seeing increases in the non retail sectors is economic stupidity.

The minimum wage in general or the MW increases in Ontario of late ? Retail seems to have done pretty well over the past few generations. I can't see people buying more crap than they already do.

And, do you think the minimum wage should be raised by the cost-of-living, though ?

[blueblood]

have you gone to get a haircut, buy groceries not advertized on sale? This is what this minimum wage has accomplished - Inflated retail costs. Yes a disdavantaged person needs to be empowered to lift himself up. Hiking the minimum wage without seeing increases in the non retail sectors is economic stupidity.

So let me get this straight, you want the government to set wage controls, and at the same time your complaining about how everything has turned communist without them?

The last thing this country needs is minimum wage when we already have a burdensome welfare system to go along with it.

[whowhere]

The minimum wage in general or the MW increases in Ontario of late ? Retail seems to have done pretty well over the past few generations. I can't see people buying more crap than they already do.

Businsess is business and why should people pay inflated prices for goods and services just because do gooders believe its the right thing to do.

And, do you think the minimum wage should be raised by the cost-of-living, though ?

What is cost of Living? Increasing Technology has seen increased production without the manpower. We live in a greed exploitive environment where Government is leading the charge.

[whowhere]

So let me get this straight, you want the government to set wage controls, and at the same time your complaining about how everything has turned communist without them?

The last thing this country needs is minimum wage when we already have a burdensome welfare system to go along with it.

The ontario government is unrealistic and oblivious to world economics. To fix Ontario, requires Ottawa intervention.

Edited February 23, 2010 by whowhere