Canadian Government Guilty of Violating Khadr's Rights

[capricorn]

In some countries treason is a capital offence. Wonder what the chances are, if Khadr gets a trial that he could face execution? I mean if tried by the US, either government or military.

You can stop wondering Sir B. It's already been determined that the death penalty is off the table.

[Argus]

It works if you jump things up to the level of cultures and countries that were made victims of other cultures and countries.

Is the analogy/leap really that much of a stretch? I don't think I'm the first to suggest that cultures or countries are analogs of an individual. Take Uncle Sam for example.

Juveniles are considered immature, and don't get to make a lot of dumb decisions which we know are bad for them. Are you sugggesting that the West ought to treat the third world like immature young juveniles, and make their decisions for them? How would that jibe with your anger about interferences in their affairs?

[Army Guy]

You dont know that.

Here is what i do know from statements provided, there was in fact 3 wpns found in the ally way that Omar was found in, a pistol found by Omar. one rifle recently fired, found next to dead guy , also a rifle recently fired found a couple of feet from Omar....DO we have proof that will stand up in a court of law...Nope....But it's kind of like finding a pile of crap on your kichen floor, and turning and seeing someone with the pants down to their knees and toilet paper still stuck to his ass....I can't prove it but i'm pretty sure he did...

[Army Guy]

Canadians went over and fought in Vietnam. They must have been terrorists too. I believe a large bunch of Irishmen went and fought in the Spanish Civil War. They must have been terrorists too.

Hypotheticaly speaking of course.

You seem to be a smart person, and i know you already have the answer to the question you posed....

How could Canadians fighting under uniform for the US army be considered terrorists....next what is the defination of a terrorist....If irishmen engaged in terrorist activites while fight then yes that would make them a terrorist....if not what does that make them ?

[PIK]

If only stanfield had won.

[eyeball]

What gives a Canadian the right to take up arms and become a terrorist again'st any nation...

Nothing gives a Canadian the right to do that. In the meantime what gives a democratic nation the right to prop up foreign dictatorships against their own people?

Considering the grief that doing so causes why don't we have laws to make this sort of attack against other people illegal?

[eyeball]

That was not the question Has he publically expressed his regret. And while many humans are capable of regrett there are plenty of examples of repeat offenders.

I don't know? How the hell could he do that if he hasn't been out on public?

[eyeball]

The decisions i'm talking about is the one he took just before and during the day of his capture, US and Afghanis Soldier's gave the entire villiage a warning, gave the civilains time to vacate the village...Omar decided he was staying....Omar could have surrendered at any time he decided not to....

Omar decided to take up arms and fight....

After a lifetime of being deliberately deluded he probably believed that Satan was coming. He must have been terrified out of his mind.

[eyeball]

Juveniles are considered immature, and don't get to make a lot of dumb decisions which we know are bad for them. Are you sugggesting that the West ought to treat the third world like immature young juveniles, and make their decisions for them? How would that jibe with your anger about interferences in their affairs?

No, I'm suggesting that the West ought to provide better examples of how to behave in a civilized manner. If we go around the planet proclaiming freedom, democracy and human rights then we'd better not be propping up bloodthirsty dictatorial military regimes on the side.

[g_bambino]

In the meantime what gives a democratic nation the right to prop up foreign dictatorships against their own people?

Because sometimes that's better than the alternative.

[ToadBrother]

You seem to be a smart person, and i know you already have the answer to the question you posed....

How could Canadians fighting under uniform for the US army be considered terrorists....next what is the defination of a terrorist....If irishmen engaged in terrorist activites while fight then yes that would make them a terrorist....if not what does that make them ?

I can't speak for all nations, but generally if you enlist in an army which is not considered an enemy state, and in particular if you enlist in the army of an ally, there's little your native land can or will do about it. Even after Ireland was fully independent of Great Britain, and even though it remained neutral during WWII, plenty of Irishmen joined the British Army. Heck, the French Foreign Legion is made up entirely of people who do not hold French citizenship.

[eyeball]

Because sometimes that's better than the alternative.

That's fine coming from the anonymity of an Internet forum, now lets see a panel of western leaders get up and proclaim to the world that the west had no choice but to sacrifice the human rights and lives of millions of human beings to save the world from tyranny.

That said what are the chances of people believing them anymore than they did this crew?

[ToadBrother]

That's fine coming from the anonymity of an Internet forum, now lets see a panel of western leaders get up and proclaim to the world that the west had no choice but to sacrifice the human rights and lives of millions of human beings to save the world from tyranny.

That said what are the chances of people believing them anymore than they did this crew?

Would you have liked to learn to speak Russian? You've repeatedly shown substantial ignorance of 20th century history, and you still feel you have some sort of a moral right to disclaim every decision made in the past 50 or 60 years.

I'm beginning to think you can't be more than about 20 years old. I grew up in the final couple of decades of the cold war, and the Soviets were very scary guys, with an alien system of government, no consideration for human rights and still at least publicly espousing idea that revolution needed to be exported.

I'd wager you'd be the guy that after the Spanish Armada was crushed, bitched and complained that Elizabeth I was so harsh on Catholics, because it's clear the Spaniards weren't really going to be capable of invading England. You have this disability, in that you can only look at things in hindsight, and even then your perspective is extraordinarily limited.

[wyly]

Canadians went over and fought in Vietnam. They must have been terrorists too. I believe a large bunch of Irishmen went and fought in the Spanish Civil War. They must have been terrorists too.

Hypotheticaly speaking of course.

Canadians also fought in the Spanish Civil War as well on a per capita basis Canada was the 2nd largest contributor of troops/terrorists, including one famous Canadian Norman Bethune...some 1,500 canadians fought in the Mackenzie-Papineau Battalion and there are monuments in canada recognizing them...so it seems whether you're defined as a freedom fighter or terrorist depends on political viewpoint...at the time they were not well thought of in Canada as they fought for the socialist cause..

Edited February 5, 2010 by wyly

[wyly]

I'm beginning to think you can't be more than about 20 years old. I grew up in the final couple of decades of the cold war, and the Soviets were very scary guys, with an alien system of government, no consideration for human rights and still at least publicly espousing idea that revolution needed to be exported.

geez that's how the Soviets viewed the Imperialistic west that exported coups, invasions, and puppet dictatorships...as well as a previous history of attacking the Soviet Union in the early days of it's formation, is it any surprise they were suspicious and hostile to the Western powers?...

always walk in the other guys shoes and try see the world from his perspective...

[Born Free]

Canadians also fought in the Spanish Civil War as well on a per capita basis Canada was the 2nd largest contributor of troops/terrorists, including one famous Canadian Norman Bethune...some 1,500 canadians fought in the Mackenzie-Papineau Battalion and there are monuments in canada recognizing them...so it seems whether you're defined as a freedom fighter or terrorist depends on political viewpoint...at the time they were not well thought of in Canada as they fought for the socialist cause..

Good point.

I bet ya though that nobody in this forum would think of labeling the Americans that went to fight in the Spanish Civil War or the Canadians that went to Vietnam as being "terrorists".

[eyeball]

Would you have liked to learn to speak Russian? You've repeatedly shown substantial ignorance of 20th century history, and you still feel you have some sort of a moral right to disclaim every decision made in the past 50 or 60 years.

No, I've merely shown a substantial unwillingness to accept that two wrongs make a right.

So do you think the west has a moral obligation to account for the regimes it propped up that were no better and probably worse than what we were frightened of?

[Born Free]

I'm beginning to think you can't be more than about 20 years old. I grew up in the final couple of decades of the cold war, and the Soviets were very scary guys, with an alien system of government, no consideration for human rights and still at least publicly espousing idea that revolution needed to be exported.

I grew up as a youth in post WWII Canada and also observed as you did the Cold War. The Soviets are still there with their alien system of government...come to think of it... so are the Chinese...However, we (ie the West) all have nukes that we all can deliver so we are inclined to not get into the revolution exportation business with them.

On the other hand, over the past decade we have seen serious attempts at exporting revolution by death and destruction by the West to Iraq and Afghanistan and perhaps Iran in the next wave. Whats up with that?

Edited February 5, 2010 by Born Free

[M.Dancer]

I grew up as a youth in post WWII Canada

I was about to say you look great for someone in theor late 70s...

[Born Free]

I was about to say you look great for someone in theor late 70s...

Thanks. I'm a crappy typist. I did initially write WWI. I'm only in my late 60's.

[ToadBrother]

No, I've merely shown a substantial unwillingness to accept that two wrongs make a right.

I wonder how you would feel if there was a gun pointed at you. As Winston Churchill famously said, "If Hitler invaded Hell I would make at least a favorable reference to the Devil in the House of Commons."

In struggles for survival, moral considerations take a distant second seat. If an endangered Siberian tiger, for instance, were trying to gnaw your head off, and you were holding a rifle, would your first thought be "Oh my, I'm going to have to kill this endangered animal"?

So do you think the west has a moral obligation to account for the regimes it propped up that were no better and probably worse than what we were frightened of?

Absolutely it should account for it. I'm not even defending them all, some were badly wrongheaded, and in instances like Iran, things went horribly wrong.

By the same token, I'm not willing to lay the blame for all the ills of the world at the West's doorstep, nor am I going to make the even greater intellectual blunder of pretending that a post hoc analysis accurately portrays events as they were unfolding.

[wyly]

If you think Canada of twenty or thirty or forty or fifty years ago would have done its utmost on behalf of Khadr, regardless of his name, nationality or origin, then you are sadly ignorant of history and rather childishly naive.

we aren't the Canada of 20, 30, 40, or 50 years ago, most of us have moved on we're wiser than we were then...at least most of us are..the Canada's "way" is ever forward not backwards...

Edited February 5, 2010 by wyly

[eyeball]

Absolutely it should account for it.

How?

[ToadBrother]

How?

Isn't that basically what the West has been doing for the two decades since the end of the Cold War?

[eyeball]

Isn't that basically what the West has been doing for the two decades since the end of the Cold War?

No, I'd say its basically been pretending that the blow back from the Cold War is a justification for making new deals with new and improved bastards. It's basically been dumping the same old shit in a different bucket is all. The best the west seems capable of doing is holding it's nose and mouthing the words sorry but we have no choice.

Not like that child-monster Omar Khadr however who did have a choice.