Environment, oilsands

[nicky10013]

I don't think about things only in terms of dollars and cents. A country (and a province) is far more than that. Yes, Alberta has wealth, but by virtue of its location, and because it's in a society - this country - that has allowed it to become so much more than it could have been almost anywhere else. Albertans owe just as much to Canada as any Manitobans or Quebecois in the country. When we start reducing Canada and this Confederation to simple dollars and cents, then we lose sight of who we truly are.

Many on the far right (and the far left for that matter) who are always complaining about something seem to have forgotten what Canada is and how very lucky they are to be a part of it. They seem to have forgotten that without the 'welfare state of Quebec' there would have been no Canada and so no Alberta and so no Alberta wealth. They seem to have forgotten that without men who lived in Ontario, who sat in the parliament in Ottawa, there would not be the Constitutional Monarchy with the Parliamentary Democracy that has allowed them (and BC, and Saskatchewan, and Newfoundland and Labrador) to flourish. They forget that without the support of Ontario for half a century, Alberta would never have become the place that it is today.

So much seems to be forgotten, and I think that Albertans forget it at their own peril, and possibly the peril of all Canadians.

Spot on, sir. I couldn't say it any better myself. It's always the same old same old. "So what have you done for me lately." There's something to be said about individualism. Our individual rights and freedoms is what make this country great. However, we also have to think of society as well. Sometimes the good of the community outweighs the good of the individual and this is one of those times.

It's almost as if they think they can survive on their own. Albertans and all Canadians for that matter take for granted the extreme interdependence between provinces. If one leaves the entire goose is cooked. Just because Alberta has cash on hand (well, not any more) doesn't make them any more economically sound. For one the Alberta economy is so inflated that as soon as the oil sands is done expanding the housing market will crash along with wages. The shocking part is the PC government in Alberta would rather hand it back out as tax breaks to buy votes than do anything meaningful like build up provincial infrastructure and help diversify. Ontario is in trouble now but in the end the tough job of getting workers off of auto jobs is under way and in fact almost done. Pretty much every auto plant has been shut down in the past 15 years and only a few are finally starting to re-open at the rate of maybe a 1000 workers per plant. The government, though expensive, is opening up the province to foreign investment in green technologies which is the economy of the future. In 30 years what happens when the sands are depleted? There are no companies headquartered in Calgary that aren't energy conglomorates. In 30 years there'll be a bunch of empty office towars, a city full of crime (more than it already is) and an economy sputtering a long on the good graces of the have provinces.

If Easterners sound arrogant, it's not. We've been there before and are going through it now. The only difference between Ontario and Alberta is Ontario's manufacturing base only makes up 20% of the economy. EVERYTHING in Alberta is based around oil. Services, housing, finance. It's all because people are flocking in to work on the rigs. Once that's gone, Alberta is essentially overdeveloped farmland and cattle grazing country.

[blueblood]

I don't think about things only in terms of dollars and cents. A country (and a province) is far more than that. Yes, Alberta has wealth, but by virtue of its location, and because it's in a society - this country - that has allowed it to become so much more than it could have been almost anywhere else. Albertans owe just as much to Canada as any Manitobans or Quebecois in the country. When we start reducing Canada and this Confederation to simple dollars and cents, then we lose sight of who we truly are.

Dollars and cents are the true measures of success, anyone who says otherwise is jealous and has to tell themselves that to make themselves feel better.

Ontario and Quebec have prime locations close to navigable waters, minerals, population, and a huge population down south. Why can't they have the same success Alberta has?

Alberta has done well in spite of being part of Canada. How else can a province still lead the way yet fork over 20+ billion dollars?

Many on the far right (and the far left for that matter) who are always complaining about something seem to have forgotten what Canada is and how very lucky they are to be a part of it. They seem to have forgotten that without the 'welfare state of Quebec' there would have been no Canada and so no Alberta and so no Alberta wealth. They seem to have forgotten that without men who lived in Ontario, who sat in the parliament in Ottawa, there would not be the Constitutional Monarchy with the Parliamentary Democracy that has allowed them (and BC, and Saskatchewan, and Newfoundland and Labrador) to flourish. They forget that without the support of Ontario for half a century, Alberta would never have become the place that it is today.

That Alberta wealth would have still existed, it would just be exploited flying the stars and stripes. Our neighbours down south seemed to do well without a constitutional monarchy and parliament. BC2004 is right, it's those dern merkins and their thirst for oil and other goods that made Canada. If we did things the Ontario way, we'd be as broke as they are.

So much seems to be forgotten, and I think that Albertans forget it at their own peril, and possibly the peril of all Canadians.

Maybe if Ontarians and Quebecers would quit kicking Western Canada in the head and stop pillaging us, that would go further in solving the national unity crisis. Ontarians and Quebecers want to tax the hell out of everything, look where it got them - broke and wanting to drag the west down with them.

[nicky10013]

Dollars and cents are the true measures of success, anyone who says otherwise is jealous and has to tell themselves that to make themselves feel better.

Ontario and Quebec have prime locations close to navigable waters, minerals, population, and a huge population down south. Why can't they have the same success Alberta has?

Alberta has done well in spite of being part of Canada. How else can a province still lead the way yet fork over 20+ billion dollars?

That Alberta wealth would have still existed, it would just be exploited flying the stars and stripes. Our neighbours down south seemed to do well without a constitutional monarchy and parliament. BC2004 is right, it's those dern merkins and their thirst for oil and other goods that made Canada. If we did things the Ontario way, we'd be as broke as they are.

Maybe if Ontarians and Quebecers would quit kicking Western Canada in the head and stop pillaging us, that would go further in solving the national unity crisis. Ontarians and Quebecers want to tax the hell out of everything, look where it got them - broke and wanting to drag the west down with them.

Alberta is pretty broke as it is, you don't fork over 20+ billion a year. We've had this discussion. It's only 15. The only province in the 20 range is Ontario and it's close to 30. As I said before, no one is pillaging you. There's all these grand quotes and figures saying Albertan's pay the most, but it's never on equalisation and only the net total. Equalisation, Albertans claim they pay something like 15 billion which is impossible because the programme is only worth 14. Which means the rest comes out of income taxes. How can you be pillaged when Canadians are taxed at the same rate. The entire thing is a myth drilled into your heads by Reformers who only gain by divisive politics. They only win when you're angry at the east. They've got nothing else. I feel bad for westerners. It's so prevalent everywhere that people can't help believe it.

Edited January 9, 2010 by nicky10013

[ZenOps]

Oh please! We can have the debate about whether Alberta could separate by peaceful or military means, but WOULD YOU DROP THE CRAP ABOUT BRITAIN??? Nobody here cares about what Charles may or may not think, nor could he do a damn thing. When it comes to affairs in Canada, he is completely impotent. The monarchy has absolutely SHIT to say about affairs here and are, for all intents and purposes, of no meaning worldwide. Canadians are not slaves, servants or subjects of the British crown and if some wannabe king tried to stick his nose in with force, he'd find it getting shot off.

Take all of the oilsands away? You're joking right? Under what authority is he going to do that? He can't even TRAVEL to Canada without the permission of the Canadian government. The man is going to be another figurehead that only matters to the British (if at all) and is there to make 60 year old spinsters swoon. Other than the awarding of the odd medal, he can't make policy, break policy, or fart without permission in Canada, let alone Alberta.

Get over your little rants about Britain.

Edit to add: Eyeball - nobody in this province would give a good god damn about the "claims" of a bunch of indians. That's a Canadian Liberal thing, not an Albertan one. Nice try.

Thing is... Britains crown corporation technically owns the minerals rights to most of Alberta, it is in many ways no different than any other company that owns mineral rights. Up until now - the Queens right has not been exercised - but can and has been used before during wartime (War Measures Acts)

If Alberta were to seperate, it would not change this fact in Britain Crown Corporations eyes. And if a seperated Alberta did not pledge allegiance and fealty to the Crown - then it would be considered an act of independance. Of course - Most acts of independance are grounds for declarations of war.

When China petroleum invested 1.9Billion buying up Alberta Tarsands, guess where they spent most of the negotiation time - Yup, Britain... I don't even believe its required to even mention the deal to Stephen Harper to let China buy up Alberta oil (The Canadian govt aren't working anyways - so obviously these deals are going through without their approval, dissapproval or even knowledge)

That Canada gained partial lawmaking and repealing ability from the British sometime around 1982 does not change the mineral rights issues. People like Weibo Ludwig do not own the mineral rights to their land, they never did. Most farmers in Alberta do not have mineral rights to the land under the soil.

Where I think people get confused is where homesteading landrights include mineral rights - Like Texas and if anyone remembers the old TV show "The Beverly Hillbillies" That is not how it works in Canada.

Does Gordon Campbell own the land his house is sitting on in BC? Yes. Does he own the mineral rights to it? No. But at least the mineral rights aren't owned by the BCC, thanks to that loophole.

http://thetyee.ca/News/2005/04/19/CompanyGrabsMining/

Edited January 9, 2010 by ZenOps

[bush_cheney2004]

.....If Alberta were to seperate, it would not change this fact in Britain Crown Corporations eyes. And if a seperated Alberta did not pledge allegiance and fealty to the Crown - then it would be considered an act of independance. Of course - Most acts of independance are grounds for declarations of war.

See Clarity Act (Bill C-20) - requires changes to several existing arrangements, so no big deal wrt Crown Corps.

[Smallc]

Dollars and cents are the true measures of success, anyone who says otherwise is jealous and has to tell themselves that to make themselves feel better.

Or not. It really depends on how you look at things. If you only view a country in terms of dollars and cents, then there's really no reason to have a country.

Ontario and Quebec have prime locations close to navigable waters, minerals, population, and a huge population down south. Why can't they have the same success Alberta has?

Ontario did, for a long time. They are still successful to this day. Some day, they're success will change again, either for the better or the worse....and so will Alberta's.

Alberta has done well in spite of being part of Canada. How else can a province still lead the way yet fork over 20+ billion dollars?

That's an out and out falsehood. It is this country that has provided the society in which Alberta has become so wealthy.

That Alberta wealth would have still existed, it would just be exploited flying the stars and stripes.

That's a non existent reality that we can't possibly know about.

Our neighbours down south seemed to do well without a constitutional monarchy and parliament.

Good for them. Who really cares, we're not talking about them.

BC2004 is right, it's those dern merkins and their thirst for oil and other goods that made Canada.

That made Canada? In your wildest dreams maybe. Canada wasn't made by Americans. Alberta's oil wealth is another thing entirely.

If we did things the Ontario way, we'd be as broke as they are.

Ontario isn't really any more broke than Alberta.

Maybe if Ontarians and Quebecers would quit kicking Western Canada in the head and stop pillaging us

I'm going to need recent examples of this that don't include Constitutionally mandated programs.

, that would go further in solving the national unity crisis

.

According to two Canada Day polls in a row, there really is no crisis except in the minds of a few fringe groups.

Ontarians and Quebecers want to tax the hell out of everything, look where it got them - broke and wanting to drag the west down with them.

That's a false stereotype. If Alberta wasn't sitting on oil, they'd be poorer. People can deny it until their blue in the face, but it doesn't change reality.

[Smallc]

Thing is... Britains crown corporation technically owns the minerals rights to most of Alberta,

The Canadian Crown (or in this case, the Alberta Crown), not the British Crown.

[bush_cheney2004]

...That's a false stereotype. If Alberta wasn't sitting on oil, they'd be poorer. People can deny it until their blue in the face, but it doesn't change reality.

But they are sitting on oil, so they are richer. Back to reality.....son.

[Riverwind]

Thing is... Britains crown corporation technically owns the minerals rights to most of Alberta, it is in many ways no different than any other company that owns mineral rights. Up until now - the Queens right has not been exercised - but can and has been used before during wartime (War Measures Acts)

The head of state in Canada is the "Queen of Canada". The current holder of that office happens to also be the "Queen of England", however, her duties as the "Queen of Canada" are completely separate from her other duties. If necessary, the Canadian government has the power to fire the "Queen of Canada" and replace her with a monarch acceptable to Canadians. The current "Queen of Canada" is legally compelled to sign any amendment to the constitution that relieves her of her duties.

IOW - You don't have a clue what the term 'crown land' means in Canada.

[Smallc]

But they are sitting on oil, so they are richer. Back to reality.....son.

Yes they are....and they're also sitting in Canada, where Canadian law and the Canadian Constitution rule and where there are onerous requirements on any separation. I'm living in reality right now.

Edited January 9, 2010 by Smallc

[bush_cheney2004]

Yes they are....and they're also sitting in Canada, where Canadian law and the Canadian Constitution rule and where there are onerous requirements on any separation. I'm living in reality right now.

Good...you're back on track, and admit that such "onerous" requirements exist as a defined process, despite any assumed (and permanent) kumbaya obligation (on your part) for Albertans to tolerate under-represented and unbalanced reciprocation to the Confederation.

[Smallc]

As long as Alberta exists are part of Canada, the obligation exists. The minority of Albertans that are separatists can't decide to take Alberta and go. Run along and play now.

[nicky10013]

Good...you're back on track, and admit that such "onerous" requirements exist as a defined process, despite any assumed (and permanent) kumbaya obligation (on your part) for Albertans to tolerate under-represented and unbalanced reciprocation to the Confederation.

If anything Alberta is over-represented. In Alberta, the average is around 1:50,000. In Ontario its 1:100,000. I'm not moved by the cries of no taxation without representation.

[Jerry J. Fortin]

Troll to you....big customer to Albertans.

Alberta, love us or leave us, its your call.

[bush_cheney2004]

As long as Alberta exists are part of Canada, the obligation exists. The minority of Albertans that are separatists can't decide to take Alberta and go. Run along and play now.

That's not very long....easy come...easy go. Albertans will decide for themselves either way, not you and your own agenda.

[waldo]

obviously Albertans have different values since they aren`t sitting on their butts collecting welfare from the rest of the country. It seems to be a unique and distinct society here in Alberta.

Please elaborate on those, as you say, "different Alberta values"... from your distinct society!

We are not a welfare state unlike oh 7 out of ten of the provinces

like I said... you're currently running a deficit... you have little to no diversification - you're a one-trick pony... you rely entirely upon a non-renewable resource, one the world is moving rapidly away from (whether you see/accept it, or not), you've squandered past opportunities to save/invest your revenue wealth... you have decaying infrastructure... you are losing more people than those that are coming into the province... your population is urbanizing - your rural separatist roots are increasingly vanishing.

in any case, about those unique Alberta values... from your distinct society - again, what are those values?

You really, really don't know what the hell you're talking about do you?

We rely entirely upon TWO non-renewable resources.

Do some research. Just wander down to one of the nine Starbucks on your block, ask the gay guy if you can use the computer next to his non-gender-specific life partner, order a non-fat, decaf, iced mixed carmel macchiato and turn on the iMac. Google "neanderthal civilizations", click on the link that lists "Alberta" and do some reading while listening to Atif Aslam on your ipod.

You too can learn. Learning is fun.

oh really... given technological advances with shale gas, you're effectively out of that game, particularly given significant plays in BC and even more significant plays in Quebec. The U.S. will not need your 'conventional' gas given it's huge gas shale plays... and given that your Alberta shale gas form doesn't match economically to the new shale gas extraction technology, you can't even tap your own shale gas. Considering natural gas royalties contributed more than half of your provincial governments 2007/2008 $11 billion in non-renewable resource revenues... you might be concerned, particularly given the impact new gas shale plays will have on supply/demand... which way do you see the prices going and how will that affect your revenues - duh!

riddle me this... given your tirade to highlight the absence of pluralized non-renewable resource dependency, do you feel it provided a teachable moment to further emphasize the fragility of your province's economic ties to (2) non-renewable resource(s), with one of those (soon to be) in significant decline? BTW, what's that you're the boss of... anyway? Have you learned? Was it fun?

[Smallc]

Actually, a province can't decide to leave on its own (part of those onerous requirements). They may be allowed to leave, but the terms would have to be amicable to the rest of the Confederation.

[bush_cheney2004]

Alberta, love us or leave us, its your call.

Correct.....seems to work well for Quebec too.

[bush_cheney2004]

Actually, a province can't decide to leave on its own (part of those onerous requirements). They may be allowed to leave, but the terms would have to be amicable to the rest of the Confederation.

Duh! That would be the Clarity Act, referenced earlier...please try to keep up...son.

[Smallc]

Duh! That would be the Clarity Act,

Yes, and since that's what we were talking about....

[bush_cheney2004]

Yes, and since that's what we were talking about....

Well, at least you've learned how to quote other member's posts for clarity here.

[Smallc]

I don't quote posts that my post immediately follows. It's a waste of bandwidth.

[bush_cheney2004]

I don't quote posts that my post immediately follows. It's a waste of bandwidth.

Yes you do...see your post #85. It's not all about you...other members are playing too.

[Smallc]

Looking at the time stamp on my post and the stamp on the one above, I'm sure you can see what happened there. I've fixed it like I always do in such a situation now. This has nothing to do with the discussion anyway.

[bush_cheney2004]

Looking at the time stamp on my post and the stamp on the one above, I'm sure you can see what happened there. I've fixed it like I always do in such a situation now. This has nothing to do with the discussion anyway.

Oh..OK...we'll just go back to adjusting for your false timing and assumptions...no big deal.