Environment, oilsands

[waldo]

As usual Waldo, you're missing the point. You, and many other enviro "wingnuts" - to use your terminology - are biting the hand that feeds you....and dripping with arrogance as you do it. For every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction. As long as there are Waldo Wingnuts around, there will always be a counter balance of people who push back. Your attitude smacks of a second coming of Trudeau - this time cloaked in "renewable doctrine" - but it amounts to more of the same....Screw the West. Well, once is enough, thank you.

Simple... in your narrow one-track mindedness... why do you structure your reply exclusively around "enviro"? Certainly, of the several questions I rattled off, a few were related to "the environment"... but, really, is that the single isolated purview you see for the government of Canada, vis-a-vis JerryJ's described "ALBERTA's natural resource"?

[eyeball]

BS. That is crap AGW hacks just made up to sell their half baked religion. There is not one shred of evidence to support that claim.

What is it that you think is half baked about the Law of Thermodynamics? Heat is energy, put more heat into the atmosphere and you get a more energetic weather. Seems pretty scientific to me.

BTW - IPCC climate models do NOT have the resolution required to produce weather systems. For example, storms and hurricanes do not show up in the simulations so you can't use them to say that warming will cause more severe weather.

Who need's simulations of more severe weather when we've got real weather to look at?

[waldo]

Exactly! Folks like Waldo keep jamming Albertans in the eye, constantly reminding them of how they are taken for granted and openly mocked for their values.

This more than anything ensures that the Liberals and the NDP don't have a hope in hell of improving their seat count in that province! I mean, you keep kicking a dog in the teeth and then you wonder why it won't lick your hand?

They put Dale Carnegie back about 100 years!

exactly what are those "Alberta values" you speak to? ... and how was anything I asked an affront to those "Alberta values"? What would be the basis for you accepting Alberta separatism... the unique Alberta cultural values... or...

[waldo]

Ha!

Any fool can criticize, condemn, and complain - and most fools do.

- Dale Carnegie

Ha!

Any fool can jump up and down, bluefaced, ranting and raving about separating from Canada.

- Waldo

[Alta4ever]

there always have been... there always will be... fringe separatist wingnuts - like you. Albertan's have shown a strong desire to remain in Canada - an overwhelming allegiance to Canada. In your most optimistic over-the-top dreams... how would you treat towns/cities within Alberta... citizens of Alberta... that refused to be a part of your separatist split - would you allow the city of Edmonton, for example, to remain within Canada?

that fringe is in 40% range when the last a poll was conducted on the issue.

[Michael Hardner]

I think this would actually be a very reasonable solution. That said, in addition to us spending the $8 billion, I think Alberta should restrict it's payments in all way, shape and form to net zero. We get back what we put in. The money no longer sent east will be put into provincial green initiatives. We'll have the cleanest industry on the planet (spending about $15 billion per year on it), still be competitive in exports, with the added bonus of cutting off the ROC from our welfare donations. We'll pay our share (national defence, debt, etc) but not a red cent to the ROC under equalization. THEN we can afford the possibility of an International Greenhouse Gas Guilt and Blackmail Scam (IGGG-BS) quite easily.

We'll just charge the ROC more for their oil and gas. Simple.

Good idea.

<sarcasm>And we'll help the US invade you.</sarcasm>

[Alta4ever]

exactly what are those "Alberta values" you speak to? ... and how was anything I asked an affront to those "Alberta values"? What would be the basis for you accepting Alberta separatism... the unique Alberta cultural values... or...

obviously Albertans have different values since they aren`t sitting on their butts collecting welfare from the rest of the country. It seems to be a unique and distinct society here in Alberta.

[waldo]

that fringe is in 40% range when the last a poll was conducted on the issue.

sorry, skewed polls from the Western Standard don't count

[Alta4ever]

sorry, skewed polls from the Western Standard don't count

Neither does your skewed climate research. But then again Blueblood did highlight your credibility on the subject a few threads ago.

Hydraboss an idea why don`t we put an export tax on energy, and resources and gas exported to other province to claw back the equalization money.

Edited January 8, 2010 by Alta4ever

[waldo]

obviously Albertans have different values since they aren`t sitting on their butts collecting welfare from the rest of the country. It seems to be a unique and distinct society here in Alberta.

Please elaborate on those, as you say, "different Alberta values"... from your distinct society!

[Alta4ever]

Please elaborate on those, as you say, "different Alberta values"... from your distinct society!

We are not a welfare state unlike oh 7 out of ten of the provinces

[Hydraboss]

<sarcasm>And we'll help the US invade you.</sarcasm>

C'mon Michael, the US invading Alberta would be like me invading my buddies basement to have a beer. Except Washington state. They're kinda weird.

And I can barely understand the Governor of California. I keep getting the feeling he's some kind of predator, ready to crack bad jokes and go commando on us. Spooky.

[waldo]

We are not a welfare state unlike oh 7 out of ten of the provinces

like I said... you're currently running a deficit... you have little to no diversification - you're a one-trick pony... you rely entirely upon a non-renewable resource, one the world is moving rapidly away from (whether you see/accept it, or not), you've squandered past opportunities to save/invest your revenue wealth... you have decaying infrastructure... you are losing more people than those that are coming into the province... your population is urbanizing - your rural separatist roots are increasingly vanishing.

in any case, about those unique Alberta values... from your distinct society - again, what are those values?

[eyeball]

How's it feel to know that there's a growing number of people in Alberta that TRULY DON"T GIVE A SHIT ABOUT THE REST OF CANADA ANYMORE?

Speaking for myself I'm not too unhappy about this aspect of this issue. I'm not adverse to the idea of B.C. separating as well if Canada comes apart.

If Alberta did separate I have reason to believe that ordinary Albertans would be in a better position to protect their environment. I think there is good reason to believe that separatist stirrings at the provincial level would unleash separatist feelings at more regional levels. I think THEN people would really start getting closer to the possibility of developing more accountable government structures and institutions that are accountable simply because they are physically closer to the people who depend on them.

We need to apply a principle of adjacency - a right of human beings to sustain themselves with the natural resources that surround them and a right of human beings to govern how the environment and natural ecosystems that are subsequently exploited are used, protected and restored - according to the needs and democratic inputs of everyone in the region, including those who's lives are affected by exploitation, like the farmers and ranchers above the oilsands and people who live downstream of them.

Large central national and provincial governments should exist to provide the constitutional capacity for local management boards and consensus-based committees of people that actually live and work in the regions the management boards are responsible for. This would mean corporations would have to deal directly with the regions they wish to operate in rather than going over their heads as they can now.

PS When I say regions I don't just mean any old haphazardly delineated region within a provincial boundary. Bio regionalism is where we really need to be headed - political boundaries that follow natural boundaries like the area within a given watershed or bio-geoclimatic zone.

Islands are an excellent example of a natural bio-regional management zone. I'm sure I've still got an old V.I.L.O. tee-shirt somewhere (Vancouver Island Liberation Organization).

Of course we could still do all this bio-regional management within Confederation but I doubt if the big corporations and political parties would ever go for it. They'll have to be dragged kicking and screaming all the way.

Edited January 8, 2010 by eyeball

[Hydraboss]

Hydraboss an idea why don`t we put an export tax on energy, and resources and gas exported to other province to claw back the equalization money.

That might be a little tougher to accomplish than we think because it starts to poke at the constitution. However, if the "enviro wingnuts" get their way and some kind of "per tonne" charge on CO2 comes in, Alberta would be well within it's rights to add that additional charge to the barrel of oil or mcf of natural gas we export out of the province. Nothing saying we can't charge an inflated amount to the ROC to make up for what we wouldn't charge the US (provided they didn't sign on to the IGGG-BS). We'd have to wait and see how much the ROC enjoys paying $1.95/liter for gas when Albertans pay $0.85.

[waldo]

That might be a little tougher to accomplish than we think because it starts to poke at the constitution. However, if the "enviro wingnuts" get their way and some kind of "per tonne" charge on CO2 comes in, Alberta would be well within it's rights to add that additional charge to the barrel of oil or mcf of natural gas we export out of the province. Nothing saying we can't charge an inflated amount to the ROC to make up for what we wouldn't charge the US (provided they didn't sign on to the IGGG-BS). We'd have to wait and see how much the ROC enjoys paying $1.95/liter for gas when Albertans pay $0.85.

well... after you raise/apply your export tax, here's to your success in realizing concessions from the ROC concerning additional/increased "freight" movement of that 'dirty' tarsands extract through the ROC... considering you may have difficulty actually selling the fruits of your tarsands labour into the U.S., given recent state California law ... and considering you may not be able to continue to skirt around this recent federal U.S. law

[Hydraboss]

well... after you raise/apply your export tax, here's to your success in realizing concessions from the ROC concerning additional/increased "freight" movement of that 'dirty' tarsands extract through the ROC... considering you may have difficulty actually selling the fruits of your tarsands labour into the U.S., given recent state California law ... and considering you may not be able to continue to skirt around this recent federal U.S. law

First of all, we don't need to sell to California. Other states can sell to California and we can sell to them. Solved.

As for your second link, there is absolutely nothing in there preventing Alberta from shipping directly into the States. The whole "dirty oil" thing went bye-bye when Hussein's advisor went to Ft Mac. So I guess your "realizing concessions from the ROC" crap goes right out the window. Have you looked at a map lately? Ontario is not south of Alberta. Montana is.

[waldo]

First of all, we don't need to sell to California. Other states can sell to California and we can sell to them. Solved.

As for your second link, there is absolutely nothing in there preventing Alberta from shipping directly into the States. The whole "dirty oil" thing went bye-bye when Hussein's advisor went to Ft Mac. So I guess your "realizing concessions from the ROC" crap goes right out the window. Have you looked at a map lately? Ontario is not south of Alberta. Montana is.

First of all, it's called precedent... as California goes... so go (some) 'others'. In any case, it would be interesting to realize the auditing that wouldn't, ultimately, be able to realize the actual tarsands source.

As for the second link, my understanding is that the Bill passed without changes to the relevant Section 526... that today, it's only a "nudge nudge, wink wink" agreement that keeps the possibility of tarsands exports flowing to the U.S. - hence, my questioning the continued ability to skirt the actual law. Sorry, I'm a bit confused over your reference to "Hussein's advisor" - is that Alberta rig-pig humour?

[ZenOps]

But would Alberta Seperate as a sovereign nation? We don't really need as much approval from the Federal Canadian govt, as much as the "other" power.

Unless it was done by military means, in which case you can bet that Charles is going to enact War Measures and come swooping down from his throne and take all of the oilsands away from you faster than a Japanese Canadian during wartime - *Just* to remind you whos the boss.

There are a lot of arrogant MP's in Alberta - who have never been on the spear end ot the British Empire. Every man in Alberta is a peasant to the Imperium, even Rob Anders.

Should we run to Obama for protection? We have to run to someone.. And if that is the case - how much does the US get to carve up Alberta? They won't do it for free - I will tell you that right now.

BC is a little different.

http://thetyee.ca/News/2005/04/19/CompanyGrabsMining/

Loosening mining rights is a very tricky thing (although in BC its for metals and not oil) BC has a loophole from 1859 - from the old "gold rush" days where there were specific laws made for the area.

Edited January 8, 2010 by ZenOps

[eyeball]

But would Alberta Seperate as a sovereign nation? We don't really need as much approval from the Federal Canadian govt, as much as the "other" power.

Unless it was done by military means, in which case you can bet that Charles is going to enact War Measures and come swooping down from his throne and take all of the oilsands - *Just* to remind you whos the boss.

Should we run to Obama for protection? We have to run to someone.. And if that is the case - how much does the US get to carve up Alberta? They won't do it for free - I will tell you that right now.

BC is a little different.

http://thetyee.ca/News/2005/04/19/CompanyGrabsMining/

Loosening mining rights is a very tricky thing (although in BC its for metals and not oil) BC has a loophole from 1859 - from the old "gold rush" days where there were specific laws made for the area.

Actually the biggest factor in the separation or dissolution of Canada will be First Nations.

That said more than a few revolutions and independence movements in the world have coalesced around indigenous aspirations.

[Hydraboss]

But would Alberta Seperate as a sovereign nation? We don't really need as much approval from the Federal Canadian govt, as much as the "other" power.

Unless it was done by military means, in which case you can bet that Charles is going to enact War Measures and come swooping down from his throne and take all of the oilsands away from you faster than a Japanese Canadian during wartime - *Just* to remind you whos the boss.

There are a lot of arrogant MP's in Alberta - who have never been on the spear end ot the British Empire. Every man in Alberta is a peasant to the Imperium, even Rob Anders.

Should we run to Obama for protection? We have to run to someone.. And if that is the case - how much does the US get to carve up Alberta? They won't do it for free - I will tell you that right now.

BC is a little different.

http://thetyee.ca/News/2005/04/19/CompanyGrabsMining/

Loosening mining rights is a very tricky thing (although in BC its for metals and not oil) BC has a loophole from 1859 - from the old "gold rush" days where there were specific laws made for the area.

Oh please! We can have the debate about whether Alberta could separate by peaceful or military means, but WOULD YOU DROP THE CRAP ABOUT BRITAIN??? Nobody here cares about what Charles may or may not think, nor could he do a damn thing. When it comes to affairs in Canada, he is completely impotent. The monarchy has absolutely SHIT to say about affairs here and are, for all intents and purposes, of no meaning worldwide. Canadians are not slaves, servants or subjects of the British crown and if some wannabe king tried to stick his nose in with force, he'd find it getting shot off.

Take all of the oilsands away? You're joking right? Under what authority is he going to do that? He can't even TRAVEL to Canada without the permission of the Canadian government. The man is going to be another figurehead that only matters to the British (if at all) and is there to make 60 year old spinsters swoon. Other than the awarding of the odd medal, he can't make policy, break policy, or fart without permission in Canada, let alone Alberta.

Get over your little rants about Britain.

Edit to add: Eyeball - nobody in this province would give a good god damn about the "claims" of a bunch of indians. That's a Canadian Liberal thing, not an Albertan one. Nice try.

Edited January 8, 2010 by Hydraboss

[Riverwind]

First of all, it's called precedent... as California goes... so go (some) 'others'. In any case, it would be interesting to realize the auditing that wouldn't, ultimately, be able to realize the actual tarsands source.

Americans or going to have serious gas shortages in the next 10 years or so because of years of brain dead environmental regulation have turned oil refining into a money losing business. This, in turn, will enourage the import of gasoline rather than crude oil which will make the US even more dependent on foreign energy suppliers. Of course, this suits the evironmentalists fine cause they think a a society with more unemployement and poverty is a wonderful thing because poor people use less energy.

[Hydraboss]

Americans or going to have serious gas shortages in the next 10 years or so because of years of brain dead environmental regulation have turned oil refining into a money losing business. This, in turn, will enourage the import of gasoline rather than crude oil which will make the US even more dependent on foreign energy suppliers.

And this is why they would drool at either buying directly from Alberta (sans federal involvement) or accepting us as another state.

Of course, this suits the evironmentalists fine cause they think a a society with more unemployement and poverty is a wonderful thing because poor people use less energy.

They also use less soap. And buy less Dom Perignon. And drive less Ferraris. I'm sure that makes the enviro wingnuts happy too.

[blueblood]

like I said... you're currently running a deficit... you have little to no diversification - you're a one-trick pony... you rely entirely upon a non-renewable resource, one the world is moving rapidly away from (whether you see/accept it, or not), you've squandered past opportunities to save/invest your revenue wealth... you have decaying infrastructure... you are losing more people than those that are coming into the province... your population is urbanizing - your rural separatist roots are increasingly vanishing.

in any case, about those unique Alberta values... from your distinct society - again, what are those values?

Hows that sky high tax experiment working in Ontario these days? Funny how a province that charges higher taxes than Alberta is deeper in red than Alberta is.

My link

For someone living in a province with a 24.7 billion dollar deficit with a "diversified" economy has no business trashing a province with a deficit of a third of that.

Given the projected energy demands of the world in the near future, there is going to always be a demand for oil.

Last I checked the population for Alberta is growing

My link

How did Ontario's one trick pony of car manufacturing turn out?

[Hydraboss]

Hows that sky high tax experiment working in Ontario these days? Funny how a province that charges higher taxes than Alberta is deeper in red than Alberta is.

Blue, HOW DARE YOU ask such questions about the Middle East? They are above reproach because they are multicultural, and they have Yonge Street, and the HoC, and easy access to poutine....