Body scanners coming to Canadian airports

[eyeball]

The failure on the attempted bombing at Christmas was entirely intelligence-related. As with 9-11, passengers will be harassed, ridiculous procedures will be put in place, all to give the appearances of security, with little actual increase in security.

It was intelligence-related root causes that brought us to where we are today...all to give the appearances of security, with little actual increase in security.

Ah what the hell this feels too much like an I told you so moment so...I told you so.

Not necessarily you TB, but the world at large.

[eyeball]

So I wonder how long it will be until we see the first surgically implanted bomb?

[ToadBrother]

It was intelligence-related root causes that brought us to where we are today...all to give the appearances of security, with little actual increase in security.

Ah what the hell this feels too much like an I told you so moment so...I told you so.

Not necessarily you TB, but the world at large.

This is the normal response of Authority to some sort of disaster or near-disaster. The first rule of response is "be seen to be doing something, even if that something can have little effect, or is even counterproductive". It's kneejerkism, but it's the way bureaucrats and politicians initially deal with anything. Bureaucrats install pointless rules, and the politicians huff and puff and stamp their feet. Meanwhile, the failure had nothing to do with airport security and everything to do with the Intelligence Community screwing up once again.

[eyeball]

This is the normal response of Authority to some sort of disaster or near-disaster. The first rule of response is "be seen to be doing something, even if that something can have little effect, or is even counterproductive". It's kneejerkism, but it's the way bureaucrats and politicians initially deal with anything. Bureaucrats install pointless rules, and the politicians huff and puff and stamp their feet. Meanwhile, the failure had nothing to do with airport security and everything to do with the Intelligence Community screwing up once again.

Here's the thing though, if its a given that the initial IC screw up was rooted in Iran 1953 (which is obviously what I alluded to) their knee-jerk response back then was very much unseen - the bureaucrats and politicians clearly didn't want to be seen doing anything by anyone.

Is that ironic or something else?

[ToadBrother]

Here's the thing though, if its a given that the initial IC screw up was rooted in Iran 1953 (which is obviously what I alluded to) their knee-jerk response back then was very much unseen - the bureaucrats and politicians clearly didn't want to be seen doing anything by anyone.

Is that ironic or something else?

First of all, the guy was a Nigerian who apparently was involved with an Al Qaeda cadet branch in Yemen. I think it's safe to say the Iranians had nothing at all to do with it. One can be reasonably sure that Iran despises those Sunni Islamists (and they in turn despise those Shia heretics) as much, if not more, than anyone on our side of the globe does.

Edited January 6, 2010 by ToadBrother

[wulf42]

Well said. I agree 100%.

See i'm not always hard to get along with.........

[Michael Hardner]

See i'm not always hard to get along with.........

There isn't anyone that a disagree with ALL of the time.

[eyeball]

First of all, the guy was a Nigerian who apparently was involved with an Al Qaeda cadet branch in Yemen. I think it's safe to say the Iranians had nothing at all to do with it. One can be reasonably sure that Iran despises those Sunni Islamists (and they in turn despise those Shia heretics) as much, if not more, than anyone on our side of the globe does.

Probably but this mess has long since morphed into a clash of civilizations...given the enemy of my enemy and all that.

I'm quite certain if the roles in this clash were reversed, that is if we were the weaker civilization, us right-wingers and lefties and Catholics and Protestants etc etc would be just as happily blowing each other up as our common enemy does. This sort of self-destructiveness is just as much a function of dysfunction as anything else - everything eventually gets FUBAR.

I'm simply saying Iran/1953 was the flap of the butterfly's wing that gave rise to a storm

that's now growing into a hurricane.

Edited January 6, 2010 by eyeball

[ToadBrother]

I'm simply saying Iran/1953 was the flap of the butterfly's wing that gave rise to a storm

that's now growing into a hurricane.

I don't buy that for a second. I don't see much evidence beyond southern Iraq that the 1953 coup had any substantial effect on the rest of the Muslim world. If you want to look for the cause of modern Islamism, it dates back to the Wahabi sect in Arabia during the last couple of centuries of Ottoman rule. The descendants of the Wahabis shifted their hatreds from the Ottomans after WWI to the Brits, and ultimately, to the Americans, for a complex number of reasons. The House of Saud, itself Wahabi in origin, has no small part in this, considering it became their stock answer to their own fundamentalist whackos to export them, and ultimately the fundamentalism with it. What it comes down to is this. The Saudis control what Muslims view as the holiest of lands, in particular Mecca. The Saudis, in part, stand because the US props them up in an alliance that guarantees the most valuable substance on the planet doesn't get controlled by some really crazy people. Those crazy people resent what they view as an American occupation. Further they resent Israel, in part because they view that as an occupation of the second most holy place on the planet. So, to please these nutjobs we would have to depart from Saudi Arabia and let Israel to its own devices.

Is that what you're asking?

[bush_cheney2004]

I'm simply saying Iran/1953 was the flap of the butterfly's wing that gave rise to a storm

that's now growing into a hurricane.

Very simple indeed...still waiting for the "hurricanes" from Chile, Honduras, El Salvador, Cuba, Vietnam, Egypt, Jordan, Thailand, Mexico, etc., etc.

[nicky10013]

Very simple indeed...still waiting for the "hurricanes" from Chile, Honduras, El Salvador, Cuba, Vietnam, Egypt, Jordan, Thailand, Mexico, etc., etc.

And what's the percentage of those countries populations that actually like the US? Furthermore, how many of those countries supply opius amounts of drugs to the US the profits which then proceed into terror networks that fight against the US. With the exception of maybe Jordan my guess is all of them. Hell, probably even Jordan. Where it isn't drugs it certainly is some kind of gun running.

[bush_cheney2004]

And what's the percentage of those countries populations that actually like the US? Furthermore, how many of those countries supply opius amounts of drugs to the US the profits which then proceed into terror networks that fight against the US. With the exception of maybe Jordan my guess is all of them. Hell, probably even Jordan. Where it isn't drugs it certainly is some kind of gun running.

If that be your measure, the US "runs guns" to Canada in exchange for lots of dope too. Not sure what you mean wrt the big bad "hurricane" that has been blowing since 1953.

"Liking the US" is a Canadian thing....you know...from the "please love us" gene sequence, even as Canada peacekills the locals around the world.

[nicky10013]

If that be your measure, the US "runs guns" to Canada in exchange for lots of dope too. Not sure what you mean wrt the big bad "hurricane" that has been blowing since 1953.

"Liking the US" is a Canadian thing....you know...from the "please love us" gene sequence, even as Canada peacekills the locals around the world.

No, I think the hurricane comment is stupid, but if you think there isn't significant amounts of money coming out of those nations to kill American citizens then, well, that's just naivety.

Furthermore, yes, a lot of guns are run up here in exchange for a lot of dope. The problem is dope doesn't kill people.

[bush_cheney2004]

No, I think the hurricane comment is stupid, but if you think there isn't significant amounts of money coming out of those nations to kill American citizens then, well, that's just naivety.

That's only fair....significant amounts of American money went to kill their "citizens". My only point was the silly notion of a specialized Iranian hurricane, which apparently you agree with. Hell, we're still messin' with the Iranians....kinda have them surrounded.

Furthermore, yes, a lot of guns are run up here in exchange for a lot of dope. The problem is dope doesn't kill people.

Sure it doesn't....it's just the money that they die for.

[nicky10013]

That's only fair....significant amounts of American money went to kill their "citizens". My only point was the silly notion of a specialized Iranian hurricane, which apparently you agree with. Hell, we're still messin' with the Iranians....kinda have them surrounded.

Welllllll, if you consider what's going on in Iran right now a Hurricane, yeah you guys did kind of cause it. I don't consider it a hurricane, though. The revolution in '79 was split between conservatives and liberal democrats. When Jimmy Carter took in the Shah because he had cancer, that was it. Everyone went ballistic, the conservatives gained the upper hand, hostages were taken and that, as we say, was history.

That's why everyone not in the US has been begging the US to stay out of the Green Revolution because if there's any government that can screw up chances at a change in government, it's the US government. Britain doesn't help but they're only the "little satan."

[bush_cheney2004]

Welllllll, if you consider what's going on in Iran right now a Hurricane, yeah you guys did kind of cause it. I don't consider it a hurricane, though. The revolution in '79 was split between conservatives and liberal democrats. When Jimmy Carter took in the Shah because he had cancer, that was it. Everyone went ballistic, the conservatives gained the upper hand, hostages were taken and that, as we say, was history.

Everyone did not go ballistic....some just fled the country. The new theocracy also "caused" the internal backlash from reformers...this is not a new phenom.

That's why everyone not in the US has been begging the US to stay out of the Green Revolution because if there's any government that can screw up chances at a change in government, it's the US government. Britain doesn't help but they're only the "little satan."

Yea...kinda like the smallest Satan of all in Haiti....Canada.

[Moonlight Graham]

I, for one, can't wait to see my front package displayed in all its glory on a scanner screen. i hope to smash a hole right through the damn screen, 3D-style. YAH!!!

But seriously, yes i see the concern for women. How about women only being scanned/analyzed by women security workers?

They need to implement proper security precautions before these terror incidents happen/are attempted. Right now airports/gov'ts are reacting after the fact. It was "take off your shoes, potential shoebomber", then is was "no liquids!", now it's "i need to scan your underwear". Why are we reacting to, and not preventing, these terrorist airplane incidents?

[nicky10013]

Everyone did not go ballistic....some just fled the country. The new theocracy also "caused" the internal backlash from reformers...this is not a new phenom.

Uhhh yes, yes they did go ballistic. The Shah was such a hated figure in the country that as soon as Carter offered him shelter is the minute the majority of the revolution went Anti-American. There was a fight between the Liberals and the theocrats and at one time even two governments. The minute Carter opened the doors, they all went insane because they wanted the Shah returned to Iran for trial. Considering how much aid and support the US offered the Shah before that, I'm surprised it didn't happen sooner. That, however, was the way the cookie crumbled. Khomeini may have seized upon it and whipped people up, but Iranians were so angry that the government didn't need to cause anything.

[bush_cheney2004]

But seriously, yes i see the concern for women. How about women only being scanned/analyzed by women security workers?

Sorry, no room for sexist favoritism here....everybody gets the same treatment or a host of legal problems will result. "Hey Lady...bend over!"

[bush_cheney2004]

Uhhh yes, yes they did go ballistic. The Shah was such a hated figure in the country that as soon as Carter offered him shelter is the minute the majority of the revolution went Anti-American.

There were anti-American sentiments and actions long before Carter gave shelter to the Shah.

There was a fight between the Liberals and the theocrats and at one time even two governments. The minute Carter opened the doors, they all went insane because they wanted the Shah returned to Iran for trial. Considering how much aid and support the US offered the Shah before that, I'm surprised it didn't happen sooner. That, however, was the way the cookie crumbled. Khomeini may have seized upon it and whipped people up, but Iranians were so angry that the government didn't need to cause anything.

Methinks you have reduced a far more complex Persia to a simple, one dimensional event. We know better...that's why you expected it sooner.

[nicky10013]

Sorry, no room for sexist favoritism here....everybody gets the same treatment or a host of legal problems will result. "Hey Lady...bend over!"

I read an article in the star which was interesting. It called for the Israelification of airports. The main detection method isn't racial profiling but behavioural profiling and it makes sense. There are 4 soft checkpoints and two hard. At the soft check points the article pointed out that people trained in such profiling merely ask, how are you today? By their answer these experts can identify people who are nervous and can select them for further questioning. There are 2 hard points with metal detectors with no body scans. Israel's delays for security are usually no more than 30 minutes (or so the article claims) and the airport of scrutiny, Tel Aviv I believe, hasn't had a security breach since 2002.

[nicky10013]

There were anti-American sentiments and actions long before Carter gave shelter to the Shah.

Methinks you have reduced a far more complex Persia to a simple, one dimensional event. We know better...that's why you expected it sooner.

Those complications couldn't be described in a 1000 page book nevermind a wesbite. Of course there was anti-americanism and other events that stoked these feelings. However, that was one of the main catalysts.

Edited January 6, 2010 by nicky10013

[bush_cheney2004]

I read an article in the star which was interesting. It called for the Israelification of airp orts. The main detection method isn't racial profiling but behavioural profiling and it makes sense....

Correct....the responses to general and targeted questions are designed to stimulate and detect behavioral stress.

Coupled with random layers of procedural variation, the problem and solution become a lot more interesting, at least mathematically.

We've seen the whiners at airport checkpoints who only invite further inspection, detection, and rejection. Al Qaeda will need to add some training to their curriculum.

[William Ashley]

The thing about these things is that they really don't do much, from what the papers are reporting. It seems like they are paying $11 Million dollars to see if you have stuff packed in your clothes. Honestly when was the last time Canada had an air based terrorist attack 1988? Air India? Why not let the airlines cover the costs of security on their multi million dollar planes. The things cost so much, why not let them just build the scanners into the entry, let them control the technology -eg have the scanners in the boarding trolly, etc.. It is already done, but my analysis of the technology shows that anyone who intends to blow themselves up with explosives could still do it, if the stuff only scans the body surface. They are plenty of ways to smuggle explosives internally.

Edited January 7, 2010 by William Ashley

[Jerry J. Fortin]

The thing about these things is that they really don't do much, from what the papers are reporting. It seems like they are paying $11 Million dollars to see if you have stuff packed in your clothes. Honestly when was the last time Canada had an air based terrorist attack 1988? Air India? Why not let the airlines cover the costs of security on their multi million dollar planes. The things cost so much, why not let them just build the scanners into the entry, let them control the technology -eg have the scanners in the boarding trolly, etc.. It is already done, but my analysis of the technology shows that anyone who intends to blow themselves up with explosives could still do it, if the stuff only scans the body surface. They are plenty of ways to smuggle explosives internally.

Look people, if you want airport and airline security then why not just hire some of the happy folks at EL AL Security.......these guys know how to handle stuff properly.