Argus Posted December 22, 2009 Report Posted December 22, 2009 Torture is wrong. Abuse at the hands of authority is wrong. Covering up information is wrong. In this nation all of these things are literally illegal. Beatings are not necessarily torture in a place like Afghanistan. As has already been pointed out, mothers and fathers routinely beat their children there with impunity. Husbands routinely beat their wives. Employers routinely beat their employees for whatever they think they did wrong. Farmers beat their labourers. Senior soldiers beat junior soldiers. It seems to be a way of life there. Violence is endemic and routine. Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
Argus Posted December 22, 2009 Report Posted December 22, 2009 Like I said above, while it does not constitute torture, Catholic nuns ought not to have abused children in their care. They're both wrong, although torture is much worse. I dunno. When Catholic nuns - and teachers - had use of rulers and "the strap" schools were considerably more disciplined, and fights were short-lived and didn't involve knifes and gang beat-downs which sent kids to hospital or the morgue. Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
Argus Posted December 22, 2009 Report Posted December 22, 2009 So the Canadian troops sat with their thumbs up their ass for 2003-3006 in Afghanistan? Where did they send prisoner's they captured then? We gave them to the Americans, but then the Liberals changed that because they were afraid the Americans might try to embarrass them with dirty pictures. Apparently they thought the Afghanis would be kinder. Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
M.Dancer Posted December 22, 2009 Report Posted December 22, 2009 If we are party to fascist tactics, like Peter MacKay and Harper would like us to be, we are no better than those we fight against in Afghanistan. Lefty humour... Quote RIGHT of SOME, LEFT of OTHERS If it is a choice between them and us, I choose us
Jerry J. Fortin Posted December 22, 2009 Report Posted December 22, 2009 We gave them to the Americans, but then the Liberals changed that because they were afraid the Americans might try to embarrass them with dirty pictures. Apparently they thought the Afghanis would be kinder. I really wonder why we would not have simply tried them in a court of law and then be done with it. I mean really, if we caught them, we should have detained them until their trials in an Afghan court and then wash our hands. Quote
cybercoma Posted December 22, 2009 Report Posted December 22, 2009 (edited) If we are party to fascist tactics, like Peter MacKay and Harper would like us to be, we are no better than those we fight against in Afghanistan. Do you know what fascism is? Are you for real? You just like to throw around buzzwords and say controversial things, don't you? Edited December 22, 2009 by cybercoma Quote
cybercoma Posted December 22, 2009 Report Posted December 22, 2009 I dunno. When Catholic nuns - and teachers - had use of rulers and "the strap" schools were considerably more disciplined, and fights were short-lived and didn't involve knifes and gang beat-downs which sent kids to hospital or the morgue.I'm not really sure that you can attribute that to their disciplinary tactics. I have no proof, but I suspect if teachers used those tactics today, there would be even more violence in schools when kids try to take revenge. Quote
Argus Posted December 22, 2009 Report Posted December 22, 2009 For the record, I'm embarrassed that we haven't been able to get the Afghans to take over the mission, in part because we have not put enough pressure on their government to deal with corruption within its ranks and their military is poorly trained. Regardless, comparing Canada's government to the Taliban is asinine, to say the least. The problems are numerous. First, to build a large enough army, they need sources of income. The Afghani government has few legal sources of income. It's not like the country is a trade giant or has much beyond a barely subsistence level agrarian economy. Second, loyalties are to tribe and clan, so it's hard to build an army when most of the individuals within it will take their orders first from their clan or tribal chiefs, regardless of what the government says. Add on that, yes, there's massive corruption, and self-interest involved. How do other such countries build armies? Simple. A strong man takes control and slaughters anyone who disagrees, along with theri families, often as not. But the West's tenderness prevents that from happening in Afghanistan. So you have this middling competent placekeeper there who commands few loyalties, and either hasn't the stomach or the permission from those keeping him in power (the Americans) to conduct the murderous reign needed to establish authority. Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
Argus Posted December 22, 2009 Report Posted December 22, 2009 I'm not really sure that you can attribute that to their disciplinary tactics. I have no proof, but I suspect if teachers used those tactics today, there would be even more violence in schools when kids try to take revenge. Anything is possible. But if kids are taught discipline right from grade one, by the time they're in high school I would expect they would be more inclined to behave in schools. If the "youth justice" system was similarly intent on establishing discpline that would, of course, help. Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
Argus Posted December 22, 2009 Report Posted December 22, 2009 I really wonder why we would not have simply tried them in a court of law and then be done with it. I mean really, if we caught them, we should have detained them until their trials in an Afghan court and then wash our hands. How would that make a difference? Afghan courts are unlikely to be paragons of judicial virtue by our standards either, and then they would still wind up in Afghan prisons. Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
Jerry J. Fortin Posted December 22, 2009 Report Posted December 22, 2009 How would that make a difference? Afghan courts are unlikely to be paragons of judicial virtue by our standards either, and then they would still wind up in Afghan prisons. Afghan citizens, tried in Afghan courts, imprisoned in Afghan jails. Sounds like Afghan justice to me. Why are we there if not to support a free system over there. Maybe they need help setting it up, thats fine, but its still their system not ours. We can`t really be faulted for applying their own laws, lawyers and courts to them can we Quote
Argus Posted December 22, 2009 Report Posted December 22, 2009 Afghan citizens, tried in Afghan courts, imprisoned in Afghan jails. Sounds like Afghan justice to me. Why are we there if not to support a free system over there. Maybe they need help setting it up, thats fine, but its still their system not ours. We can`t really be faulted for applying their own laws, lawyers and courts to them can we We are in Afghanistan under two different mandates. The NATO mandate which we went in under is simple: evict the Taliban and make sure they don't get back into power. The UN mandate, which all the bleeding hearts embrace, is nation building. And that, given the fact the people there don't see themselves as a nation, is extremely difficult. Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
Jerry J. Fortin Posted December 22, 2009 Report Posted December 22, 2009 We are in Afghanistan under two different mandates. The NATO mandate which we went in under is simple: evict the Taliban and make sure they don't get back into power. The UN mandate, which all the bleeding hearts embrace, is nation building. And that, given the fact the people there don't see themselves as a nation, is extremely difficult. What do you think they see themselves as....just isolated tribes Quote
ironstone Posted December 22, 2009 Report Posted December 22, 2009 Does anyone have any suggestions as to what Canada should do with captured Taliban members?If we don't hand them over to the Afghan forces what should be done with them?How about bringing them to Canada?We could give them the very best treatment,including food,money and shelter...perhaps even their freedom.That's the politically correct thing to do isn't it? We seem to be divided into two camps,those who are entirely sympathetic with the Taliban members....and those,perhaps like myself who feel no pity for these barbaric bastards. Where do you stand,with the victims or perpetrators? Quote Beware the Brookfield industrial complex...
M.Dancer Posted December 22, 2009 Report Posted December 22, 2009 Does anyone have any suggestions as to what Canada should do with captured Taliban members? Ideally we (NATO) should have set up our own detebtion camps somewhere near but outside of Afghanistan. That is "ideally" of course, why we didn't is not complicated Quote RIGHT of SOME, LEFT of OTHERS If it is a choice between them and us, I choose us
bush_cheney2004 Posted December 22, 2009 Report Posted December 22, 2009 Does anyone have any suggestions as to what Canada should do with captured Taliban members? Yes....I think they should be restrained and forced to watch "The Price is Right" game shows and Hollywood porn a la "A Clockwork Orange" at Canada's 'Gitmo North' facility in Ontario. Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
blueblood Posted December 22, 2009 Report Posted December 22, 2009 Yes....I think they should be restrained and forced to watch "The Price is Right" game shows and Hollywood porn a la "A Clockwork Orange" at Canada's 'Gitmo North' facility in Ontario. What's wrong with the Price is Right? Quote "Stop the Madness!!!" - Kevin O'Leary "Money is the ultimate scorecard of life!". - Kevin O'Leary Economic Left/Right: 4.00 Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -0.77
wyly Posted December 22, 2009 Report Posted December 22, 2009 (edited) I dunno. When Catholic nuns - and teachers - had use of rulers and "the strap" schools were considerably more disciplined, and fights were short-lived and didn't involve knifes and gang beat-downs which sent kids to hospital or the morgue. I can only assume you never went to school...I went to schools in the days when being strapped with a nasty leather shaving strap was the norm, as was being thrown into walls, slapped, kicked etc(I experienced all)...rulers were reserved for you girls...and none of that school discipline prevented gang brawls that included knives, bats, chains and belts... Edited December 22, 2009 by wyly Quote “Conservatives are not necessarily stupid, but most stupid people are conservatives.”- John Stuart Mill
wyly Posted December 22, 2009 Report Posted December 22, 2009 Well...yeah...but the US didn't kill 'em like in the Somalia Affair! the USA has killed prisoners in Iraq and Afghanistan...I'm not accusing the USA of having an official policy of murder likely the actions of rogue individuals but it has happened... Quote “Conservatives are not necessarily stupid, but most stupid people are conservatives.”- John Stuart Mill
bush_cheney2004 Posted December 22, 2009 Report Posted December 22, 2009 the USA has killed prisoners in Iraq and Afghanistan...I'm not accusing the USA of having an official policy of murder likely the actions of rogue individuals but it has happened... Good...that makes us "even"....now if you will just point me to the chain-of-command trials and convictions, timed served, etc. for the Somalia Affair we can wrap this up in time for dinner. Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
madmax Posted December 22, 2009 Report Posted December 22, 2009 (edited) Does anyone have any suggestions as to what Canada should do with captured Taliban members?If we don't hand them over to the Afghan forces what should be done with them? The simple question of what to do with prisoners is 8 years too late. This is no surprise to anyone involved and shouldn't come as a surprise to anyone who is competent. Edited December 22, 2009 by madmax Quote
bush_cheney2004 Posted December 22, 2009 Report Posted December 22, 2009 What's wrong with the Price is Right? Nothing....but the Taliban would not approve of such western materialism: Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
wyly Posted December 23, 2009 Report Posted December 23, 2009 Good...that makes us "even"....now if you will just point me to the chain-of-command trials and convictions, timed served, etc. for the Somalia Affair we can wrap this up in time for dinner. don't recall all, that was too long ago...the man accused with the torture and death suffered brain damage in an attempted suicide and never stood trial...the regiment was disbanded as well...I recall others who were involed but don't what if any results...they probably got less than Lt William Calley for murdering 400-500 people, 6 months house arrest and a pardon... Quote “Conservatives are not necessarily stupid, but most stupid people are conservatives.”- John Stuart Mill
Alta4ever Posted December 23, 2009 Report Posted December 23, 2009 don't recall all, that was too long ago...the man accused with the torture and death suffered brain damage in an attempted suicide and never stood trial...the regiment was disbanded as well...I recall others who were involed but don't what if any results...they probably got less than Lt William Calley for murdering 400-500 people, 6 months house arrest and a pardon... Yep the Canadian way instead of dealing with the matter sweep it under the rug and disband the best regiment in Canada. Quote "What about the legitimacy of the democratic process, yeah, what about it?" Jack Layton and his coup against the people of Canada “The nine most terrifying words in the English language are, ‘I’m from the government and I’m here to help.’” President Ronald Reagan
wyly Posted December 23, 2009 Report Posted December 23, 2009 Yep the Canadian way instead of dealing with the matter sweep it under the rug and disband the best regiment in Canada. well there was a coverup in that regiment so they deserved what they got...it hasn't hurt our military they've become better for it... Quote “Conservatives are not necessarily stupid, but most stupid people are conservatives.”- John Stuart Mill
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