Afghan detainee Issue

[Mr.Canada]

IF NATO wasn't there they wouldn't be getting killed! NATO went there to get OBL but he not there and NATO doesn't know for SURE where he is or even if he is ALIVE, so why are we there?? Plan "B" ..to build schools, to free women etc. The reasons have to changed so many times and the truth is NATO shouldn't be there. The reason we are there....control over the Middle-East, including natural resources. I don't believe Canadians should be dying for that!

I don't either. I want Canada to mind it's own business and pull out of NATO entirely. I personally don't care what some people are doing on the other side of the world. The mission was to remove the regime that was allowing Al Quada to operate. Mission accomplished. I don't support my tax dollars going to help people rebuild. Let them do it on their own. We have enough permanent welfare states with gangster governments that we throw money at we don't need another one.

[nicky10013]

As only one of Colvin's misleading statements that Liberals and NDP say is above criticism and correction Richard Colvin said

"In other words, we detained and handed over for severe torture a lot of innocent people."

Who in their right mind, that has a basic understanding of the English language, concluded this is not an attack on the conduct of our brave men and women in the battlefield in Afghanistan. This is not a condemnation of Peter McKay or the Canadian government - it is an attack on our military and their conduct and operations in a war zone - nothing more and nothing less. The Liberals and NDP have not taken objection to that statement but in fact defended it as the truth - taking Taliban protestations that they are innocent as the unvarnished truth.

For Dosanjh and the Liberals, and Dewar and the NDP to say they are supporters of our military, with friends like this who needs enemies. I suspect Dosanjh and Dewar support of our military begins and ends on Remembrance Day - the rest of the year is spent attacking our military, and undermining their good work, under very difficult conditions, when there is a war going on. What is it all about - scoring cheap political points on the backs of our military - how much lower can politicians sink?

This is the argument of the nitwit. This whole scandal, in the beginning, was about our deal in place with Afghan Officials in terms of handing over prisoners to Afghan authorities. The troops have no choice in handing them over so how can anyone accuse them of it being their fault? Case in point, NO ONE on either side of the house has accused the troops of just willy nilly handing over detainees or torturing them. Where the responsibility lies is in the generals and political officials who negotiated the deal. The opposition wants to know why, when the government was informed that detainees were being abused by Afghan authorities the government did nothing. Since then, the government has been desperately trying to cover this whole thing up (which has become the main issue) to the point that its now likely Harper will try to prorogue parliament to have this covered up.

Now, the government has people out complaining that the opposition are attacking the troops when this has never what it's been about. I'm sorry, but the govenrment is simply hiding behind the military in hopes this goes away. If you don't think that's cowardly then I have no idea what else to say.

[Jerry J. Fortin]

I have heard nobody accuse any member of the Canadian Armed Forces of any wrong doing. The government has standing orders given to the military. The military comply with their orders. The real issue here is whether or not the government had any information regarding prisoner abuse. It is clear they did, it is clear they have been attempting to spin their way out of it. It is clear that the only viable accusations are against the government.

[eyeball]

Too ensure OBL doesn't come back.

Well, if OBL doesn't come back to retaliate against us I'm quite certain someone will.

Canadian officials in the field were not alone in warning Ottawa of the substantial risk of torture in Afghan prisons. During that same period, key allies and international organizations published similar assessments. They included:

A US State Department report of March 8, 2006. It noted that, "there continue to be instances in which security and factional forces committed extrajudicial killings and torture. The following human rights problems were reported: Extrajudicial killings; torture; poor prison conditions; official impunity; 1/8and 3/8 prolonged pretrial detention. Credible observers reported that local 1/8provincial 3/8 authorities routinely tortured and abused detainees. Torture and abuse consisted of pulling out fingernails and toenails, burning with hot oil, sexual abuse and sodomy.

Source

Apparently it was TORTURE torture all along.

I had a fingernail pulled out once. My arm was frozen up to my elbow but it still hurt like nothing I've ever felt.

[Sir Bandelot]

Heard a report on the radio today that General McCrystal has something to say about the Canadian detainee scandal-

http://www.thestar.com/news/canada/afghanmission/article/740010--no-place-for-abuse-says-u-s-general

OTTAWA–There must be "zero tolerance" toward prisoner abuse and torture if coalition forces in Afghanistan are to maintain credibility in the war-torn country, U.S. Gen. Stanley McCrystal says.

Visiting Ottawa for the first time, the commander of the International Security Assistance Force (ISAF) in Afghanistan spoke bluntly to reporters about the need to treat prisoners with care and respect.

"How we treat Afghans, either detainees or just normal Afghans is an indicator of how we are going to operate in both protecting and respecting (Afghans)".

"Any potential allegation of prisoners being mistreated is a concern for all of us. Clearly, as we try to maintain the credibility of the government of Afghanistan and coalition forces, it's got to be a zero tolerance policy on mistreatment of prisoners or anybody," he said.

I found it surprising that he would come out with something like this, which seems specifically directed at Canada in this case, while our troops are fighting side by side under one command and likely that anything Canadian troops might do are done by American and other coalition forces. I'd think that the issue of handing over detainees to Afghanistan is something they all do, and the possibility of torture is the same whether it's handed over by Canada or the United States. So why they holier than thou type of speech?

Then I though about Obama's new strategy in Afghanistan, a greater effort to win the hearts and minds of the people, to get them to see western forces as "good guys". Given the higher visibility of this problem now, that Canada may have looked the other way while our detainees were tortured, it makes sense in a way. The point must be, the US is here now to help Afghanistan, and they are the good guys.

Trust us. Sorry about what those bad Canadians did...

Get it? Convenient scapegoats to make the new mission look good to the locals. Oh you bad Canadians, how could you do that. We'll get in there now and clean this up.

By the way, isn't our current mission effectively over now, with the new Obamanization plan? Canadian troops are being moved elsewhere, with a new mission. The old one has been quietly dropped... not necessary. Sorry, you people have been wasting your time.

[wulf42]

There is no issue. These people are the enemy. I don't think the average Canadian really cares whether some people who were trying to murder Canadians gets treated badly or not.

i agree, i have talked to many people about this and they all say the same thing "who cares" we have more important things to worry about than what happens to Taliban prisoners the whole thing is simply the NDP and Liberals doing their silly political wrangling again showing why neither party is or will ever be again in power.

[with_distinction]

Pretty lame petition....it's riddled with "Stop Climate Change Now!". In addition to ousting MacKay, these guys are not only going to stop Global Warming....they're going to actually stop the Earth's climate from changing. What a bunch of naive, wooly headed, bozos. Sad as it is, our Universities are churning out more of these non-thinkers every day. Their parents must be seething to see all that money wasted.

No, as the creator of the petition I would disagree.

I suppose you enjoy having a non-transparent government.

Your apathy in change is what is wrong with Western society.

[DrGreenthumb]

How much plainer can a person make the accusation on our troops then when Colvin and the Liberals say our soldiers on the ground "detained and handed over for severe torture a lot of innocent people".

They are accused of handing over innocent people to be tortured and this is an attack on the professionalism and good work that our troops are doing there. McKay was not there to turn over innocent people. The Liberals have even stooped low enough to call McKay a liar and that he is covering up for our troops. Fact is McKay is only person defending our troops and soldiers are hearing Liberals calling him a liar.

Ok Peter Mackay, we all know this is you, its not going to work so just stop it ok? Try choosing a pseudonym that doesn't use your real first name.

[wyly]

I had a fingernail pulled out once. My arm was frozen up to my elbow but it still hurt like nothing I've ever felt.

I had a toenail torn out with no freezing, doc said that would hurt just as much as it's removal...still I'd prefer that vs a beating which could maim or kill me(even though Dancer has assured all of us the beatings aren't torture )...

[wyly]

How much plainer can a person make the accusation on our troops then when Colvin and the Liberals say our soldiers on the ground "detained and handed over for severe torture a lot of innocent people".

They are accused of handing over innocent people to be tortured and this is an attack on the professionalism and good work that our troops are doing there. McKay was not there to turn over innocent people.

they have handed over innocent people to be tortured the military knew it, the government was informed and did nothing to correct the situation...that wasn't the militaries faultthey had no choice, that was the fault of the government

The Liberals have even stooped low enough to call McKay a liar and that he is covering up for our troops.

McKay has been proven to be a liar, he isn't covering for the troops he's covering his ass and the governments

Fact is McKay is only person defending our troops and soldiers are hearing Liberals calling him a liar.

he's not defending the troops, by saying he didn't know is implying the military is at fault because they didn't inform the him/government...but the evidence clearly shows everyone knew and the McKay and the cons did nothing to correct the situation leaving some mid level military guys to take the fall for McKays inaction...

[M.Dancer]

they have handed over innocent people to be tortured the military knew it,

Bullshit. If the military knew they were innocent, they wouldn't have been captured let alone handed over.

[wyly]

Bullshit. If the military knew they were innocent, they wouldn't have been captured let alone handed over.

1-even the Afghans admit many if not the majority of detainees are innocent bystanders guilty of nothing more than being in the wrong place at the wrong time....

2-by Canadian justice and International justice standards...everyone is INNOCENT until proven guilty

and I'm still waiting your admission beatings are torture under Canadian and International law, to disagree is to say Zara Kazemi(Canadian) was not not tortured merely "roughed up/beaten" to death in Iran...when are you going to be an adult and answer that question?

[M.Dancer]

and I'm still waiting your admission beatings are torture under Canadian and International law, to disagree is to say Zara Kazemi(Canadian) was not not tortured merely "roughed up/beaten" to death in Iran...when are you going to be an adult and answer that question?

Why would I entertain your off topic strawman?

they have handed over innocent people to be tortured the military knew it,

Be a sweetheart and back up your slanderous accusation.

[wyly]

Why would I entertain your off topic strawman?

unfortunetly for you it's right on topic...you're not adult enough to admit when your wrong and the entire forum can see it...

[M.Dancer]

unfortunetly for you it's right on topic...you're not adult enough to admit when your wrong and the entire forum can see it...

To be wrong, I would have to first adopt your position. If you can't see why it is:

1) off topic

2) irrelevent

...then you're whole position fails.

[Topaz]

I'm putting this topic here because it indirectly has connection to the torturing gone on/is going on in Afghanistan. It seems with the election and the old president back in he hasn't changed much of his government and so corruption and torturing will probably go on happening. The saying, "The more things change the move they remain the same" applies here. This country under this government isn't worth dying over! http://ca.news.yahoo.com/s/reuters/091219/world/international_us_afghanistan

[nicky10013]

Be a sweetheart and back up your slanderous accusation.

The chief of the defence staff admitted to it. They have notebooks from soldiers acknowledging that they knew prisoners they handed over were beaten severly. That's why this whole thing is a story. It was a semi-big story until Natynczyk (sp?) admitted to it, then it exploded it because he proved Mckay was lying through his teeth.

You obfuscate just as well as the government. And yes, the entire forum knows it.

Edited December 19, 2009 by nicky10013

[Sir Bandelot]

I'm putting this topic here because it indirectly has connection to the torturing gone on/is going on in Afghanistan. It seems with the election and the old president back in he hasn't changed much of his government and so corruption and torturing will probably go on happening.

This certainly doesn't look very promising for a new start. Almost all of the old cabinet staff was retained. I thought the Obama nation wanted to see some serious reform, that it's a crucial part of the new strategy to win Afghani hearts and minds. So called "corrupt" minsters were considered a big part of the problem. I presume by corrupt they mean, supporting illegal activities and the Taliban.

From the article, Karzai's spokesman explains their criteria for selecting his new cabinet:

"The only standard for those who remain in the cabinet has been their efficiency, effectiveness and proficiency," Omar said.

"Our interpretation of change is that those who are effective, who have had achievements in the past, should be kept," he told a news conference.

Corruption, whatever that means, was not part of the consideration. As long as they were able to achieve something, even if by corruption, they were back in. I think that shows something about how complicated the political situation is.

The saying, "The more things change the move they remain the same" applies here.

Right, like the Who song, "Won't get fooled again", Meet the new boss, the same as the old boss!

(Probably one of the best political rock songs ever written)

Edited December 19, 2009 by Sir Bandelot

[Topaz]

This certainly doesn't look very promising for a new start. Almost all of the old cabinet staff was retained. I thought the Obama nation wanted to see some serious reform, that it's a crucial part of the new strategy to win Afghani hearts and minds. So called "corrupt" minsters were considered a big part of the problem. I presume by corrupt they mean, supporting illegal activities and the Taliban.

From the article, Karzai's spokesman explains their criteria for selecting his new cabinet:

"The only standard for those who remain in the cabinet has been their efficiency, effectiveness and proficiency," Omar said.

"Our interpretation of change is that those who are effective, who have had achievements in the past, should be kept," he told a news conference.

Corruption, whatever that means, was not part of the consideration. As long as they were able to achieve something, even if by corruption, they were back in. I think that shows something about how complicated the political situation is.

Right, like the Who song, "Won't get fooled again", Meet the new boss, the same as the old boss!

(Probably one of the best political rock songs ever written)

It makes one wonder who is more corrupt, Afghan government or the Taliban????

[Radsickle]

... Getting back to the point of this thread, the `Afghan detainee issue' is disgusting. What Peter MacKay has done, by ignoring Richard Colvin and other's warnings years ago, has ruined much of the effort to win hearts and minds and has put our troops at even greater risk. Taliban once put their injured in the paths Canadian convoys were known to travel, knowing they would be treated humanely when picked up. This reputation effectively caused dissention in Taliban forces; why would they continue shooting at the people who were saving their comrades lives? Some would think twice about shooting at Canadian Forces or planting an IED along their path.

Probably not anymore though. Canada is now known to quietly endorse the torturing of their comrades. Heck, our government doesn't even care if they're guilty or just Afghan farmers in the wrong place at the wrong time! Let the Afghan Police pull out the detainees fingernails, just in case...

Next, Harper's thugs will try to pin this on a few `bad apples' within the Canadian Forces instead of looking in the mirror.

Edited December 20, 2009 by Radsickle

[ToadBrother]

It makes one wonder who is more corrupt, Afghan government or the Taliban????

By any standard definition of "corruption", the current Afghan government (which we, along with the rest of NATO, installed and basically own, remember) is far more corrupt than the TAliban. In fact, I never particularly heard that the Taliban were all that corrupt. Quite the opposite, the passionately mad religious zealots. They didn't need bribes, they're soldiers for God.

[ToadBrother]

i agree, i have talked to many people about this and they all say the same thing "who cares" we have more important things to worry about than what happens to Taliban prisoners the whole thing is simply the NDP and Liberals doing their silly political wrangling again showing why neither party is or will ever be again in power.

Oh yes, you're utterly unscientific "I talk to people" poll is soooo convincing. Screw Ekos, Wulf42 has the heartbeat of the nation.

For the record, and once again, the polls clearly show Canadians are concerned, no matter how many times you try to lay the crap out. You're beginning to look pretty self-deluded by this point.

[Argus]

The chief of the defence staff admitted to it. They have notebooks from soldiers acknowledging that they knew prisoners they handed over were beaten severly

No doubt lost children handed over to their mothers were beaten, too. That's the way of life in Afghanistan, a land without our delicate niceties regarding violence.

Beaten is not the same as torture in most respects. As one journalist put it, you'd be hard pressed to find anyone in Afghanistan who thought beating = torture. Torture is what the Taliban do, cutting off people's genitals, stripping their skin, pulling out fingernails, etc.

That's why this whole thing is a story.

It's a story because the national media is fundamentally anti-militarist as well as anti-tory, and are salivating, almost frantic at the opportunity to show both in as poor a light as possible. And because of the hypocrisy of an opposition which condemns the government for caring about human rights in China but waxes poetic about the rights of poor, downtrodden taliban prisoners in their own country's jails.

But across the country, the great mass of citizenry could not possibly care less about any of it.

[Argus]

... Getting back to the point of this thread, the `Afghan detainee issue' is disgusting. What Peter MacKay has done, by ignoring Richard Colvin and other's warnings years ago, has ruined much of the effort to win hearts and minds and has put our troops at even greater risk.

This isn't even a story in Afghanistan. No one there knows and if they know don't care. Beatings in prison? Big shrug. What do you expect would be the likely answer.

Taliban once put their injured in the paths Canadian convoys were known to travel, knowing they would be treated humanely when picked up. This reputation effectively caused dissention in Taliban forces; why would they continue shooting at the people who were saving their comrades lives?

You have a citation for any of the above or is it just your personal fantasy?

[Radsickle]

You have a citation for any of the above or is it just your personal fantasy?

I guess it's just a personal fantasy that our forces would do the right thing...