Who says we owe the Chinese visits?

[wyly]

What gets me are comments about how important saving face is in Chinese culture. Ignatieff referred to it today in his reaction to the Harper visit.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/blogs/bureau-blog/harper-reaping-what-he-has-sown/article1386729/

To me the meaning of losing face is when someone hurts your feelings by directing a comment at you that you don't like. OK, the Chinese don't like to have their feelings hurt especially in public. So what. The truth hurts. In Harper's case, I doubt his feelings were hurt or he lost face as a result of being told that 5 years is too long for a Canadian PM to visit China. I think Harper is thick skinned enough not to feel his prestige has been hurt by that comment. Conversely, it is the Chinese authorities who are fearful of losing prestige in the eyes of their own people and in the world if their faults and shortcomings are exposed.

if his visit was to gain trade "face" is very important... his actions have hurt the trade cause, you don't insult someone/country publicly if you want ot do business with them...

[bjre]

I have to wonder just where the Chinese get the gall to rebuke Harper for not coming to visit them sooner.

From what Wen said, I did not find any rebuke, he just described a fact. "rebuke" is the word that media love to use.

This is a thoroughly corrupt, brutal, backwards regime which cloaks itself in the self-important respectability of a superpower while the majority of its people still think the ox is high-technology.

I think this description is very suitable for Canadian government. Under this government, thousands of native kids dead in Residential schools, innocent immigrant die of taser gun, thousands of kids kidnapped by CAS lost their parents, one in six children of this country still lives in poverty, thousands of homeless citizens on our streets, theft be encouraged to sue shopkeepers, innocents abused in Afghanistan .....

Edited December 3, 2009 by bjre

[capricorn]

his actions have hurt the trade cause, you don't insult someone/country publicly if you want ot do business with them...

What actions. The Chinese said 5 years is a long time between visits by a Canadian PM. That's more like inaction than action.

Regardless, it appears trade was expanded with China.

China and Canada made significant progress during Prime Minister Stephen Harper's visit to Beijing in easing the flow of goods and people between the two countries.

Most significant, for many Canadians, will be the announcement that Canada has been granted, after years of negotiation, Approved Destination Status by the Chinese government.

The designation makes it possible for Chinese travel agents to organize group tours to Canada. According to Canadian government data, Chinese tourists stay longer (on average, 28 nights) and spend more (on average, better than $1,600 a visit) than those from any other country. With 1.3 million Chinese-Canadian friends and relatives to visit, the new designation promises to inject $100-million a year into Canada's tourism industry, with considerable growth potential.

There were also agreements on mineral exports and cultural exchanges. Perhaps most promising, if negotiations bear fruit, both sides agreed “to expedite negotiations of a China-Canada Foreign Investment Promotion and Protection Agreement.” Such an agreement could provide greater assurance for Canadian companies interested in investing in the Chinese market.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/world/china-canada-make-significant-progress-during-beijing-visit/article1387260/

As one pundit said, it's unbelievable that the opposition would blame the PM for what is perceived as an insult lobed by the Chinese toward him. In my mind, it's akin to fostering self loathing within our country.

UN-BE-LIEVABLE. The Chinese publicly humiliate the Prime Minister of Canada, and the opposition rushes to … blame the Prime Minister.

http://www2.macleans.ca/2009/12/03/thank-you-sir-may-i-have-another/

[capricorn]

I think this description is very suitable for Canadian government. Under this government, thousands of native kids dead in Residential schools, innocent immigrant die of taser gun, thousands of kids kidnapped by CAS lost their parents, one in six children of this country still lives in poverty, thousands of homeless citizens on our streets, theft be encouraged to sue shopkeepers, innocents abused in Afghanistan .....

I have a question. How on earth did you come to select Canada as your new country knowing how it totally disgusts you.

[bjre]

I have a question. How on earth did you come to select Canada as your new country knowing how it totally disgusts you.

Why you don't try to ask the poor polish guy why he come here, just for dead under taser gun?

[Smallc]

In all honesty, I don't think that Bjre is from Canada at all.

[bjre]

This is a thoroughly corrupt, brutal, backwards regime which cloaks itself in the self-important respectability of a superpower while the majority of its people still think the ox is high-technology.

I think this description is very suitable for Canadian government. Under this government, thousands of native kids dead in Residential schools, innocent immigrant die of taser gun, thousands of kids kidnapped by CAS lost their parents, one in six children of this country still lives in poverty, thousands of homeless citizens on our streets, theft be encouraged to sue shopkeepers, innocents abused in Afghanistan .....

The government that make its people like you believe that the majority people of a country, which is the largest market of cars, computers, internet connection, cellphone, and many others, still think the ox is high-technology. What a joke.

[capricorn]

Why you don't try to ask the poor polish guy why he come here, just for dead under taser gun?

Even if I was disposed to ask he poor polish guy, I don't think he's a position to provide an answer. But yeah, it's not clear to me why he came here. But you, I can ask. Why did you come here if you are so disgusted by all aspects of Canada, its culture, its government and its ancestry?

[capricorn]

In all honesty, I don't think that Bjre is from Canada at all.

Bjre starting posting on MLW to vent about something that happened with child welfare services somewhere in Canada. And ever since, his/her postings have done nothing but run down this country and defend the actions of the Chinese authorities.

[Smallc]

That;s why I don't think that s/he is from Canada. Bjre is only here to tell us how bad Canada is and how good China really is.

[blueblood]

Why you don't try to ask the poor polish guy why he come here, just for dead under taser gun?

Protests in China

Tiananmen square massacre 400-800 dead.

Protests in Canada

1 guy getting pepper sprayed in BC.

You tell me what's a free country?

[capricorn]

You may be right Smallc. Perhaps it's best I go back to just ignoring bjre's rantings.

[bjre]

Protests in Canada

1 guy getting pepper sprayed in BC.

Do you know a man named Dudley George?

[bjre]

Bjre starting posting on MLW to vent about something that happened with child welfare services somewhere in Canada. And ever since, his/her postings have done nothing but run down this country and defend the actions of the Chinese authorities.

CAS makes me start to think and study why it happen in Canada and make me find more and more about the system.

[blueblood]

Do you know a man named Dudley George?

Can you name 799 more???

[eyeball]

So we don't hold all human-rights abusing countries to the same standard? So we stop trading with China, and Cuba, and basically all of the Middle East, probably Russia, and much of Central and South America, and also most of Africa.

The U.S. too if we base trade sanctions on arms exports to conflict regions. When we trade with countries that truck with dictators we're trucking right along with them. Just like countries that fund terrorists are no better than terrorists themselves because they're with them. See how it works?

So we lower our standard of living, and general health and welfare, while these human-rights abusing countries continue to be ruled by human rights abusers. Great strategy! *thumbs up*

I suspect their standards will fall faster than ours and it won't be long before the abusers are left facing the abused but hopefully without their patrons to support them.

This strategy would definitely call for some real sacrifice on behalf of any nation willing to stand on their principles and make virtue trump economics. Our country once put some 25% of its economy on a war footing to defend its principles, now its time we put it on a similar footing to advance them.

Edited December 4, 2009 by eyeball

[bush_cheney2004]

The U.S. too if we base trade sanctions on arms exports to conflict regions. When we trade with countries that truck with dictators we're trucking right along with them. Just like countries that fund terrorists are no better than terrorists themselves because they're with them. See how it works?

...then Canada would have to sanction itself for arms exports to several nations, including Israel.

I suspect their standards will fall faster than ours and it won't be long before the abusers are left facing the abused but hopefully without their patrons to support them.

Nope...Canadian "standards" are as flexible as anyone elses depending on the circumstances.

This strategy would definitely call for some real sacrifice on behalf of any nation willing to stand on their principles and make virtue trump economics. Our country once put some 25% of its economy on a war footing to defend its principles, now its time we put it on a similar footing to advance them.

Good luck with that...seems that the latest dust-up over vast Canadian mining transgressions is down Mexico way:

MEXICO CITY — Dozens of people protesting the killing of an anti-mining activist demonstrated outside the Canadian embassy on Thursday, blaming the death on a Canadian-owned mining company operating in southern Chiapas state.

Supporters of the Mexican Network of People Affected by Mines claim employees of a mine owned by Calgary-based Blackfire Exploration Ltd. were involved in the shooting death of activist Mariano Abarca Friday.

Blackfire has denied the company had any involvement in the killing.

http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20091203/Mines_Mexico_091203/20091203?hub=TopStoriesV2

[eyeball]

...then Canada would have to sanction itself for arms exports to several nations, including Israel.

Yes that's right. We'd have to clean up our own act too.

[bush_cheney2004]

Yes that's right. We'd have to clean up our own act too.

Yea...funny that you never mention that as the first order of business in such matters as a "Middle-Rogue".

[Shady]

The U.S. too if we base trade sanctions on arms exports to conflict regions. When we trade with countries that truck with dictators we're trucking right along with them. Just like countries that fund terrorists are no better than terrorists themselves because they're with them. See how it works?

Exactly. You see how ridiculous it gets? How we'd pretty much have to stop trading with every country in the world? That's why I criticized the idea in the first place, and spoke against it.

I suspect their standards will fall faster than ours and it won't be long before the abusers are left facing the abused but hopefully without their patrons to support them.

Some of their standards have no lower to fall, and these places are still ruled by dictators. In fact, economic strife often leads to these types of dictatorial regimes. So I'm not sure how making things worse, will make things better.

You may want to re-think that initiative before putting tens of thousands of Canadians on the unemployment line, destroying families, and depriving our country of even more resources for healthcare and education. All for your noble goals which you yourself only suspect might work.

The road to hell is paved with good intentions.

Edited December 4, 2009 by Shady

[Guest American Woman]

Forget the trade imbalance, you said it yourself this is a thoroughly corrupt, brutal, backwards regime run by powerful thugs. Canada simply shouldn't be trading with any countries, including China, that don't respect human rights or the environment. I'd also extend this to countries who's arms exports find their way into the world's conflict regions and their thoroughly corrupt, brutal, backward regimes.

You'd have to have a trade ban on your own country.

[Shady]

You'd have to have a trade ban on your own country.

Yes, it's a horribly thought-through idea. Mostly symbolism over substance.

[eyeball]

Yea...funny that you never mention that as the first order of business in such matters as a "Middle-Rogue".

I guess it kinda goes without saying that we'd need to clean up our own act before commenting on others.

In any case you sound about as concerned as Hu Jintao does when he points out things like residential schools.

[bush_cheney2004]

I guess it kinda goes without saying that we'd need to clean up our own act before commenting on others.

Yes, but that has never stopped you from making such statements and noble declarations in the past, no matter how untenable.

In any case you sound about as concerned as Hu Jintao does when he points out things like residential schools.

Ditto your fishery exploitation, pollution, environmental damage, and coast guard costs.

[Melanie_]

From what Wen said, I did not find any rebuke, he just described a fact. "rebuke" is the word that media love to use.

Its also a fact that there hasn't been a visit from Chinese authorities in the same length of time. According to the Globe and Mail, the last time the Chinese president visited Canada was in September of 2005. The government of China is still angry that Canada gave the Dalai Lama honorary citizenship, so they are looking for ways to publicly shame Canada. Too bad for them, their shame is far more apparent to the international community than ours is.