Leftwing vs. Rightwing

[wyly]

Also, I'd like to point out again that the parties have more or less converged on the centre.

because they're greedy cowards afraid to take a stand and reveal who they really are...just my opinion...we need a new electoral system that allows parties to reflect their beliefs...

[Smallc]

What you consider the left seems very much to be the centre in the Canadian context.

[Gabriel]

What you consider the left seems very much to be the centre in the Canadian context.

Definitely. On the spectrum of reason and pragmatism, Canada's on the left.

[Smallc]

But I'm not sure you can really say that, because it's all relative. I see the US as right wing, much of Europe as being on the left. You see it differently I'm guessing.

[eyeball]

I'm certain many of you are aware that the terms left and right are a throwback to the seating arrangements of the French legislative assembly around the time of the French Revolution. In a nutshell, the conservative aristocracy were on the right and the progressives "republicans" were on the left.

The term Right was coined during the French Revolution, referring to seating arrangements in parliament; those who sat on the right supported preserving the institutions of the Ancien Régime (the monarchy, the aristocracy and the established church)

Source

The term Left was coined during the French Revolution, referring to the seating arrangement in parliament; those who sat on the left generally supported the radical changes of the revolution, including the creation of a republic and secularization.

Source

In another nutshell, most right-wingers still have a strong desire to be obsequious and toady up to their betters and most left-wingers are still revolted at the thought.

[Who's Doing What?]

It is a damned shame we are forced to choose sides.

There are really very few polarizing issues. Abortion, Capital Punishment and most recently Gay Marriage and Legalization of Marijuana and Prostitution.

As far as things like foreign policy, military spending, taxation, and the general day to day things involved in the running of the country it is a shame that because I chose one particular party for X reasons I believe in that i Have to sacrifice the Y things I also believe in.

Quick for instance: I believe rapists and murders should be put to death. These people affect society and should be dealt with harshly. Granted to do this we would need to revamp the criminal justice system. But I also don't care if someone wants to smoke pot or if two gay guys want to get married. That is none of my business. I like the idea of small Govt. but at the same time I think public services available to everyone are a must for any successful society.

So why is it that I have to chose between which values are more important to me?

This whole "Right v. Left" crap has taken the common sense out of just doing what is best for the country. Politicians follow a path that was chosen in a different time that had different ideals. The more polarized we become the closer to losing everything we are.

Edited November 27, 2009 by Who's Doing What?

[Radsickle]

I've begun to think of the difference between left and right, Liberal and Conservative, Democrat and Republican as the `Left' is more concerned with the community while the `Right' is more concerned with self-sufficiency. The Left wants to tax and build government structures to make the status-quo standard of living better. The Right wants to reduce government involvement and let the chips fall where they may.

I personally think the lefties are wiser.

But it does make things more costly.

Edited November 27, 2009 by Radsickle

[Who's Doing What?]

I've begun to think of the difference between left and right, Liberal and Conservative, Democrat and Republican as the `Left' is more concerned with the community while the `Right' is more concerned with self-sufficiency. The Left wants to tax and build government structures to make the status-quo standard of living better. The Right wants to reduce government involvement and let the chips fall where they may.

I personally think the lefties are wiser.

BUt the leftiews believe in rehabilitation instead of firm punishment. They would rather send a murderer to therapy instead of the electric chair.

Why do you want a big govt.? Everyday there are stories of corruption, improper spending and general wasting of our tax dollars.

The Lefties, don't want to put money into the military, while the North lands are ripe with minerals and fossil fuels and are under dispute and easy pickings for Russia and the USA.

Your post points out the exact type of polarization that is engulfing our political system. Our politicians turn their backs on one set of Ideas because it doesn't follw the mantra they have been following.

IF you had said the Righties were wiser, I would be making a similar post. We need to lose this chasm that has become the Great Political Divide.

[Smallc]

BUt the leftiews believe in rehabilitation instead of firm punishment. They would rather send a murderer to therapy instead of the electric chair.

And what if therapy will actually help some people? What if they really were sick? Do they still deserve the chair?

Why do you want a big govt.? Everyday there are stories of corruption, improper spending and general wasting of our tax dollars.

The same can be said about societies with a lack of government. Corruption seems to be a fact of humanity and power in general, and not so much public life in particular. We have to put the proper systems in place to stop it as best we can, in both the public and private sectors.

The Lefties, don't want to put money into the military, while the North lands are ripe with minerals and fossil fuels and are under dispute and easy pickings for Russia and the USA.

Please don't generalize. Many of us on what you would consider the left support the military....of course, many of us realize that we'd never stand a chance against the USA or Russia...no matter how much we decided to spend.

Your post points out the exact type of polarization that is engulfing our political system.

And you did the same thing right back to him. You generalized about the 'left'.

IF you had said the Righties were wiser, I would be making a similar post. We need to lose this chasm that has become the Great Political Divide.

And how do you propose we do that? Why? Anyone who values a free market system would know that humanity thrives on competition. We become a better society as long as we keep the pressure on from all sides.

[Guest TrueMetis]

BUt the leftiews believe in rehabilitation instead of firm punishment. They would rather send a murderer to therapy instead of the electric chair.

Given the choice between the two I would prefer to send them to therapy to. Of course my ideal choice would be life in prison.

Why do you want a big govt.? Everyday there are stories of corruption, improper spending and general wasting of our tax dollars.

That happens when politicians are in charge in general.

The Lefties, don't want to put money into the military, while the North lands are ripe with minerals and fossil fuels and are under dispute and easy pickings for Russia and the USA.

Unfortunatly the conservitives seem as reluctant to do anything about that as the liberals would.

Your post points out the exact type of polarization that is engulfing our political system. Our politicians turn their backs on one set of Ideas because it doesn't follw the mantra they have been following.

Well duh that's how it works. The only people stupid enough to get into politics are the ones that follow strict rules.

IF you had said the Righties were wiser, I would be making a similar post. We need to lose this chasm that has become the Great Political Divide.

That would be nice but as long as politicians are politicians that won't happen.

[BubberMiley]

In my opinion, in today's terms, it's more Libertarianism vs Statism. Or to break it down further, personal freedoms vs government management and control.

But when we talk about drug prohibition and gay marriage and abortion, you like the idea of the state restricting personal freedoms.

[ToadBrother]

But when we talk about drug prohibition and gay marriage and abortion, you like the idea of the state restricting personal freedoms.

And therein lies the rub. When you look at a lot of so-called social "conservatives", what you're really looking at is social reactionaries. I know a good many fiscal conservatives that really could give a damn about gay marriage, for instance, because their social leanings are towards Libertarianism, or in other words, providing what you do don't hurt me, I got nothing to say.

I'm no Libertarian, but I am of the opinion, as Trudeau said, that the state has no business in the bedroom. Even if I find abortion distasteful in some situations, banning it wouldn't stop it from happening, but would increase suffering, and who the hell am I to tell a woman what she can and cannot do with her own body? As to drugs, well, that's purely a practical matter. Prohibition has failed. Why we keep pumping untold billions worldwide into trying to stop the unstoppable is beyond me. I can't argue with the fact drugs can have a horrible effect on lives, but then again so does gambling and alcohol, and governments the world over have no problem profiting from either, even as they destroy coca plantations and shove billions of dollars into law enforcement agencies.

But I'm getting preachy. The point is that social reactionaries dislike personal freedoms, unless those freedoms happen to be ones they agree with. You'll see them talking about banning homosexuality and forcing religious practices on the wider population whether they want them to or not, all the while extolling the virtues of liberty. My Conservative MP is of that type. He actually made an argument at an all candidates meeting a few elections back declaring that permitting gay marriage was an infringement on his religious freedoms. Social reactionaries are masters of compartmentalization.

[Who's Doing What?]

And what if therapy will actually help some people? What if they really were sick? Do they still deserve the chair?

If they were sick there would be some history or pattern over years. THe rule should be you rape, kill etc. you die. Plain and simple.

Like I said the justice system would have to be revamped, but it could be done.

The same can be said about societies with a lack of government. Corruption seems to be a fact of humanity and power in general, and not so much public life in particular. We have to put the proper systems in place to stop it as best we can, in both the public and private sectors.

I am not saying no govt. at all. A reasonable govt. that can look after the services that we as a society need while having minimal to no waste.

Please don't generalize. Many of us on what you would consider the left support the military....of course, many of us realize that we'd never stand a chance against the USA or Russia...no matter how much we decided to spend.

Left or Right I think it is a bunch of hooey. I want good ideas, that make my homeland better.

We don't need to stand a chance against Russia or the USA we just need enough to make it not worth their while. To a big country like those two you need to think in the term of tens of Billions. If there is only 100B worth of resources up there and they project a 85B budget for the effort to claim that land they won't do it. THe PR of dead soldiers is worth alot more than the little they would recieve.

As of Right Now, what deterent do we have to either country planting a flag on an island and claiming it?

And you did the same thing right back to him. You generalized about the 'left'.

And later I said I would be making a simliar post if he had come down on the Right Wing side of my post. I am a centrist. Make no mistake about it. For the most part on these forum I have come across as leftist, but that is because of more personal than idealogical reasons. Last trwo times I took the political leaning survey(someone should look that up again) I was less than 2pts in any direction.

And how do you propose we do that? Why? Anyone who values a free market system would know that humanity thrives on competition. We become a better society as long as we keep the pressure on from all sides.

You've lost me. All I am saying is that we need to focus on what is better for the country and not what is the best thing we can do for the country that fits within our own political mantra.

Edited November 27, 2009 by Who's Doing What?

[Radsickle]

BUt the leftiews believe in rehabilitation instead of firm punishment. They would rather send a murderer to therapy instead of the electric chair.

Why do you want a big govt.? Everyday there are stories of corruption, improper spending and general wasting of our tax dollars.

The Lefties, don't want to put money into the military, while the North lands are ripe with minerals and fossil fuels and are under dispute and easy pickings for Russia and the USA.

The Lefties believe in proper spelling and a conservative use of the word "and".

[Michael Hardner]

They've converged on the left.

I don't think so. Taxes are lower, and liberalized trade and a laissez-faire economic environment have created wealth that has gone mostly to the investors and top earners. Canada has adopted more right-wing law and order approaches of late as well.

Those are major victories for the right.

[naomiglover]

What is considered leftwing now by the mainstream used to be something completely different. It's a slow process of conditioning. I think Europe's political spectrum is more accurate when describing where the parties and their policies stand.

Calling the Liberal Party of Canada a leftwing party is inaccurate. If anything, they are right of centre and just like the Conservatives, are influenced heavily by big business.

Hopefully Canada will resist the push by the big corporations to become a 2 party system like the U.S., where the only real policy differences between the two are a few minor social issues and lip service.

[wyly]

Hopefully Canada will resist the push by the big corporations to become a 2 party system like the U.S., where the only real policy differences between the two are a few minor social issues and lip service.

even more reason to change our electoral system...

[Gabriel]

I don't think so. Taxes are lower, and liberalized trade and a laissez-faire economic environment have created wealth that has gone mostly to the investors and top earners. Canada has adopted more right-wing law and order approaches of late as well.

Those are major victories for the right.

Not really. Government spending in Canada still composes over 50% of our GDP, which is insanity. In America, I think it's around 35 (which is also insanely high). This is the untold travesty of government encroachment. As you can see by naomi's post, there are no shortage of Canadians who wish to grow the government pie even more. Probably because people like her lack practical skills in the real world, they can only have a "career" doing "research" for the government on meaningless endeavours. As I type this out I'm reminded by a point made in Fareed Zakaria's book "The Post American World" regarding how America (and by extension Canada) needs to mobilize more of its university students towards REAL programs, like engineering, science, mathematics, physics, etc. More phony degrees = more future Liberal and NDP votes, if you ask me.

I think what you describe as major victories for the right are small - the new citizenship guide, for instance? Slightly tougher young-offender legislation? Recent movements to review foreign criminals' eligibility for return to Canada? These are common sense ideas, and look how much resistance they meet. We've probably got more battered women's shelters than engineering firms in this country I'm exaggerating with the last statement, but it is sickening how many fake organizations we have in this country where people are clearly unable to provide real value and seek government support for wishy washy endeavours.

Remember what I said earlier, we are a country that tolerates a separatist party. We are a country that recognizes as a separate nation Quebec and First Nations. We are a country that hands out "life sentences" to serial killers, child molesters, and rapists (no eligibility of parole for 25 years), we are also very weak on white collar crime (government AND business), we are a country that taxes up to approximately 55% of income tax (plus other service taxes and duties), we are a country that bails out failing industries with an allegedly 'conservative' government, etc, etc, etc.... this country is LEFT.

Edited November 27, 2009 by Gabriel

[wulf42]

If they were sick there would be some history or pattern over years. THe rule should be you rape, kill etc. you die. Plain and simple.

Right on! The young offender act should be scrapped also these little &*$@\'s on the streets today don t have any respect for anything or anyone..so if a 16 year old does a

violent crime throw in him in with the big boys and see how tough he is then. The lefties think Murders need help? BS they should be removed from society permanently. We all get to make a choice so if you make the wrong one and commit murder suffer the penalities no second chance.

Edited November 27, 2009 by wulf42

[Shwa]

I read a brilliant line from John Ralston-Saul in 'Reflections of a Siamese Twin' on how those that would define any Canadian as left-wing or right-wing would be be ignoring the sheer complexity of Canadian society, its myths and its realities, its history and geography. Over the years I have come to see this as very true. When it all boils down to the crunch, most Canadians are liberal in their thinking. Look that term up if you wish, take a poli-sci 101 course. We are a generous people.

I have met some of the most generous people who have very conservative views and I have met some of the most socialist of folks who bogart like the best of them. What does that mean?

Like Gabriel I cannot ignore how complex and interesting a society we are for the sake of applying labels to people or using those labels to dismiss their views. That would be dumbing down our reality which has a way of biting back pretty hard when that strategy is used.

I sometimes do it TIC or for jest, I never believe it, but I am pretty wary of those that do or do it to score petty political points.

[Smallc]

Not really. Government spending in Canada still composes over 50% of our GDP, which is insanity.

No it doesn't. I'm not sure where you got that information. Government spending (when governments are running surpluses, which until recently was common) is 33% of Canada's economy because that's how much of the economy is taxed, lower than in recent time. The number in spending is similar in the US (actually, probably higher), but taxation only makes up 28% of the economy.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_tax_revenue_as_percentage_of_GDP

[Smallc]

this country is LEFT.

Or...you are RIGHT.

[Smallc]

If they were sick there would be some history or pattern over years. THe rule should be you rape, kill etc. you die. Plain and simple.

No, nothing is that simple or cut and dry. It never has been and never will be. I know people that have killed others at a young age. They spent the rest of their lives (so far) as absolutely decent people.

I am not saying no govt. at all. A reasonable govt. that can look after the services that we as a society need while having minimal to no waste.

Reasonable is all a matter of perspective.

Left or Right I think it is a bunch of hooey. I want good ideas, that make my homeland better.

But the good ideas that you want are based on your own perspective. It's not as simple as left and right though, even though we try to make it that simple.

We don't need to stand a chance against Russia or the USA we just need enough to make it not worth their while.

The US spends as much on their military as we spend, period. Russia can get far more with far less money because their personnel budget is far lover (ours is about 40 - 50% of our military budget).

As of Right Now, what deterent do we have to either country planting a flag on an island and claiming it?

The same could be said for almost any country, as most wouldn't stand a chance against them. Things don't really work that way anymore. We have mor military capability than a great many countries, and as of now, it's increasing. We're certainly not strong, but we're not as weak as some make out either. We have some capability, and we'll have more in a few years. Wouldn't stop those countries, but hey.

we need to focus on what is better for the country and not what is the best thing we can do for the country that fits within our own political mantra.

What's really better, or what you think would be better?

[Dave_ON]

And therein lies the rub. When you look at a lot of so-called social "conservatives", what you're really looking at is social reactionaries. I know a good many fiscal conservatives that really could give a damn about gay marriage, for instance, because their social leanings are towards Libertarianism, or in other words, providing what you do don't hurt me, I got nothing to say.

I agree social reactionary is an apt description. It is why to this very day we still have so much resistance to removing the last vestiges of Victorian influence from our society. Though we are largely secularized there are many who have issues separating morality from legality.

I can't argue with the fact drugs can have a horrible effect on lives, but then again so does gambling and alcohol, and governments the world over have no problem profiting from either, even as they destroy coca plantations and shove billions of dollars into law enforcement agencies.

Exactly, the war on drugs was a fool’s errand and for all our hard work and money we have little to show for it. The fact of the matter is people will always do what they want to do regardless of the legality of it. I'm inclined to be libertarian about the matter, if it doesn't hurt anyone else in society it shouldn't illegal, regulated perhaps but certainly not illegal.

The point is that social reactionaries dislike personal freedoms, unless those freedoms happen to be ones they agree with. You'll see them talking about banning homosexuality and forcing religious practices on the wider population whether they want them to or not, all the while extolling the virtues of liberty. Social reactionaries are masters of compartmentalization.

Indeed they want everyone to have the freedom to be just like them.

[M.Dancer]

Hopefully Canada will resist the push by the big corporations to become a 2 party system like the U.S.,....

Is that straight off the Talking Toaster News Network?

Love to see the wingnut site you got that gem from...