Afghan prisoner abuse trial

[Gabriel]

One thing Colvin said raises a flag and this was alluded to on the CBC political show tonight.

http://www.torontosun.com/news/canada/2009/11/18/11796716-sun.html

My question is, how much of Mr. Colvin's evaluation of the situation with regard to the transfer of prisoners to Afghan prisoners is based on what he himself calls "poor records"?

He told the committee that Canada took a staggering amount of prisoners, roughly six times more than British forces and 20 times more than the Dutch.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/politics/canada-handed-over-innocent-afghans-to-torture-diplomat/article1368631/

How do we know the British and Dutch records are accurate?

Another interesting aspect is his description of Afghan detainees.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/politics/canada-handed-over-innocent-afghans-to-torture-diplomat/article1368631/

To my understanding, masquerading as farmers and peasants is a ploy favoured by the Taliban. Isn't that how they retreat, regroup and re-arm themselves? I have no doubt innocents have been rounded up by mistake. But he says "the vast majority" which means almost all of them. How does Mr. Colvin know that for certain?

Great questions, capricorn. I'm certain that a careful review of his statements and allegations will reveal many unanswerable questions and unprovable allegations. I don't trust this guy on bit. Hopefully most or all of his statements/allegations will be destroyed by opponents with the courage to go after him with everything they've got. Destroy his arguments, his reputation, and his career. He is quite simply a traitor to Canada advancing his own interests above the national good while masquerading as a champion of human rights.

Edited November 19, 2009 by Gabriel

[ToadBrother]

I've been learning about WWII since I was a young child, thank you very much. Having many remaining Nazis post-WWII is hardly the same as their numbers during their peak. They were largely exterminated. Regardless, have fun doing whatever it is you do. I'm done exchanging posts with you.

You've learned jack squat pal. I just love how people who say some idiotic thing will then try to overawe me with "I know all about it".

At any rate, run away little boy.

[Jerry J. Fortin]

Well, thanks for that insightful post. Did you manage to pull the fork out of your forehead before you posted it, or are you still suffering grand mal seizures from it?

You are a genius in your own mind dude.

[myata]

And just when our honourable PM was about to begin lecturing those lesser people on human rights and democracy during his forthcoming visit to China, the news of torture scandal hit China's airwaves: http://news.ca.msn.com/top-stories/cbc-article.aspx?cp-documentid=22653917 (MSN news).

Now he'll have lot more credibility there.

Always wondering how is it with our conservative minded folks, that they never shy away from sniffing other folks sh.. while having their own smell of roses and look like posies.

[waldo]

Just more absurdity in the name of naive idealism. All Colvin did was weaken Canada today in order to advance his partisan agenda. He is a traitor. Maybe he'll get a book deal and a few nice gigs with the Liberal Party out of it all. Just another case of a left-winger riding the "human rights train" in order to advance his own personal interests at the expense of Canadian national security.

Apparently, anyone you don't agree with has a partisan agenda... is a left-winger... advancing a personal interest... favouring a political affiliation other than yours. Alternatively, as an employee of the Department of Foreign Affairs and International Trade (DFAIT)... Colvin was actually doing his job. From Colvin's affidavit:

In the Government of Canada system, DFAIT has the role and obligation to provide information, reporting and advice on human rights concerns, including human rights issues as they relate to detainees. For example, DFAIT political officers at embassies are responsible for producing the annual Human Rights Report for each country of the world. This is a major, authoritative product that summarizes DFAIT's human rights analysis for that country, and which all of the Canadian government relies upon. The annual human rights report is supplemented by information on human rights obtained in ongoing meetings, reporting and other activities throughout the course of the year by DFAIT political officers. In Kandahar, as the DFAIT representative at the PRT

(Provincial Reconstruction Team)

, it was my specific duty to gather such information and to send it through channels to the full range of recipients, including DND

(Department of National Defence)

and CEFCOM

(Canadian Expeditionary Forces Command)

. In the division of responsibility among Canadian government departments, DFAIT has the lead on human rights, and is specifically tasked with providing reporting on human rights for the entire government. Other government departments, such as DND and the Provost-Marshal within DND, would be entitled to rely on DFAIT for such reporting, and for the purposes of this flow of information, there is no separation between DFAIT and DND. On human rights and other issues, various agencies within government form a coherent whole, with DFAIT mandated to inform the government in its entirety, including CEFCOM, the Provost-Marshal (who is part of CEFCOM and falls within its direct chain of command), and the Military police (who report to the Provost-Marshal). As detailed below, CEFCOM HQ in Ottawa was in regular and direct two-way communication with the Provost-Marshal and Military Police.

Colvin submitted his report to the Department of Foreign Affairs and International Trade (DFAIT), but cc'd it to senior military officers - both in Kandahar and Ottawa. Colvin sent it through specific "action address" channels... which as Colvin states, "ensures it would not only be received and read, but should be acted on". Conservative Defence Minister Peter MacKay, and former Conservative Defence Minister Gordon O'Connor... can run... but they can't hide.

[myata]

If only it mattered though. The opposition is in tatters, media will have their run, Harper will give us another minor tax credit, and all will go away, things returning to "normal", i.e quiet, undisturbed self enjoyment and gratification. Better get used to it, folks. In this setting reality of our democracy, there will be no real checks on the government barring a really major, grand screwup.

[Oleg Bach]

It was shocking when CNN gave a report entitled "Battle Field Justice" - They interviewed a crazy young America soldier who thought it was just fine to capture Iraq fighters or percieved threats and shoot them in the back of the head and dumping their bodies in a cannal...Is there something wrong with me to see the similarities of this type of murder - with what the Nazis were doing? They don't even call it murder - they try to justify it - The young American soldier that witnessed this "execution" - looked like the type that liked killing - What is America to do when thousands of their disturbed or sadistic by nature soldiers return?

[Gabriel]

Here's a question for the critics of the government grandstanding as human rights advocates - what would you have had the Canadian military do differently with detainees? What is the alternative to handing the detainees over to the Afghan security forces? It's not as if there are competing security companies in Afghanistan. Do no compare this to a Canadian being unhappy with his/her cellular service provider and moving to another company. I have yet to hear ONE left-wing extremist address this problem (Colvin himself didn't address this fundamental problem).

What would you have had the Canadian forces do with the detainees? Of course the left-wing extremists would prefer that these detainees in order to be given another chance to murder Canadian troops, our allies, and Afghani civilians. At least that way we can maintain our moral superiority.

Let me point out one more RIDICULOUS assertion that is constantly being made by the extremists on the left - that somehow incidents such as this reduce us to the moral depravity of our enemies. How can anyone ever suggest, with a straight face, that one questionable incident reduces us to the level of the Taliban? Even a hundred incidents of torture doesn't come even close to justifying a comparison between us and the animals that are our enemies.

Edited November 19, 2009 by Gabriel

[M.Dancer]

I've been learning about WWII since I was a young child, thank you very much. Having many remaining Nazis post-WWII is hardly the same as their numbers during their peak. They were largely exterminated. Regardless, have fun doing whatever it is you do. I'm done exchanging posts with you.

I am forced to assume that you are either still a young child or your learning was faulty.

Tha Nazi party at the end of the war had over 8 million memebers. The Nuremeberg trials saw 10 people executed. Most nazis at the end of the war simply discarded their memberships and moved on while in the west the allies denazified the state.

This lesson is free of charge.

Edited November 19, 2009 by M.Dancer

[M.Dancer]

By the way, the title of this thread is misleading and incorrect. There is no Afghan Prisoner Abuse Trial.

[Oleg Bach]

Maybe Canada and the states should start getting honest about the fact that they are an invading force. They may as well go the whole nine years and set up huge internment camps and spend some of their resourses on containment of the "enemy" - But in the long run there is no solution - you would have to execute most of the nation in order to gain total control - got to get practical and find the final solution - time to get Nazi on the Taliban...The Americans while invading Iraq actually used Nazi battle names ...guess German American heritage is still strong - after all the Boosh is the Bush!

[Gabriel]

I am forced to assume that you are either still a young child or your learning was faulty.

Tha Nazi party at the end of the war had over 8 million memebers. The Nuremeberg trials saw 10 people executed. Most nazis at the end of the war simply discarded their memberships and moved on while in the west the allies denazified the state.

This lesson is free of charge.

Why not put that in the context of how many Nazis and Nazi supporters were killed? Many many more millions.

[waldo]

Here's a question for the critics of the government grandstanding as human rights advocates - what would you have had the Canadian military do differently with detainees? What is the alternative to handing the detainees over to the Afghan security forces?

Are you really that obtuse... for example: you tighten up the transfer agreements and put in place stringent control/monitoring measures... you rely on independent 3rd party groups (like the Red Cross) to investigate and report on prison and detainee conditions.

What would you have had the Canadian forces do with the detainees? Of course the left-wing extremists would prefer that these detainees in order to be given another chance to murder Canadian troops, our allies, and Afghani civilians. At least that way we can maintain our moral superiority.

That so-called "moral superiority" tarnishes with each and every allegation of detainee abuse, of civilians deaths dismissed as collateral damage, etc. The mindless, numbing battle for the "hearts and minds" of the Afghan people is a tenuous balance between results and (their) perception.

Let me point out one more RIDICULOUS assertion that is constantly being made by the extremists on the left - that somehow incidents such as this reduce us to the moral depravity of our enemies. How can anyone ever suggest, with a straight face, that one questionable incident reduces us to the level of the Taliban? Even a hundred incidents of torture doesn't come even close to justifying a comparison between us and the animals that are our enemies.

I believe you're the only one drawing moral depravity conclusions - in either direction... in your black/white, left-wing/right-wing, extremist/moderate world... care to comment on past/present initiatives to negotiate with the Taliban... to include the, as you say, "barbarian, savage, sub-human, animal" Taliban in the Karzai government? Are there "degrees" of Taliban... are there "moderate" Taliban... are the Taliban of Afghanistan different from the Taliban of Pakistan? ... etc,etc,etc. I trust these questions won't give you cause to label me as traitorous... as committing treason

[DogOnPorch]

I am forced to assume that you are either still a young child or your learning was faulty.

Tha Nazi party at the end of the war had over 8 million memebers. The Nuremeberg trials saw 10 people executed. Most nazis at the end of the war simply discarded their memberships and moved on while in the west the allies denazified the state.

This lesson is free of charge.

Indeed. There was somewhat of a good track record re: imprisonment of those involved of a certain level (SS officers, etc)...but many just walked.

[Gabriel]

Indeed. There was somewhat of a good track record re: imprisonment of those involved of a certain level (SS officers, etc)...but many just walked.

I really do not want to get into a history discussion in this thread, but until the enemy surrendered (something unlikely to happen in this war), it was no-holds-barred wanton destruction of the enemy. it was annihilation. Nowadays, we send our troops in to do hand-to-hand combat, going house to house and not attacking until being attacked, it is insanity. I am well aware of the many "disappearing" Nazis after the war, the many companies that are still around today that cooperated with the Nazis knowing exactly what they were up to, etc. We're getting sidetracked from my original point - that it isn't evil to destroy evil. Killing the enemy doesn't make us animals - as Toad Brother would have us believe.

[DogOnPorch]

If you've been reading any of my rants, you're probably aware I equate Islamo-fascism with National Socialism and like to point out its direct connection to the Nazi movement.

[Gabriel]

Are you really that obtuse... for example: you tighten up the transfer agreements and put in place stringent control/monitoring measures... you rely on independent 3rd party groups (like the Red Cross) to investigate and report on prison and detainee conditions.

How do you know there aren't any monitoring mechanisms in place, already? What if the monitoring mechanisms don't work? Are you going to have full-time observers on-site? Are you going to install cameras all around the detainment facilities? What if it all fails? Do we then release the detainees? It's AFGHANISTAN! It isn't some country with a strong tradition of human rights. This is a product of their culture. It can't be undone overnight. Stop being so naive (or dishonest).

That so-called "moral superiority" tarnishes with each and every allegation of detainee abuse, of civilians deaths dismissed as collateral damage, etc. The mindless, numbing battle for the "hearts and minds" of the Afghan people is a tenuous balance between results and (their) perception.

The fact that you use quotes when discussing our moral superiority speaks volumes to your absurdity. As if Canada isn't light-years beyond the barbaric and savage country that is Afghanistan. In your view, obviously morality is in the eye of the beholder.

[Gabriel]

If you've been reading any of my rants, you're probably aware I equate Islamo-fascism with National Socialism and like to point out its direct connection to the Nazi movement.

I know! I'm well aware that you're on the right side of these issues.

[M.Dancer]

I really do not want to get into a history discussion in this thread,

A wise move on your part.

but until the enemy surrendered (something unlikely to happen in this war), it was no-holds-barred wanton destruction of the enemy. it was annihilation.

That certainly explains the 100s of thousands of German soldiers taken prisoner before the end of the war.

Nowadays, we send our troops in to do hand-to-hand combat, going house to house and not attacking until being attacked,

Factually incorrect. Canadians have been on dozens of operations, 1000 of seek and destroy patrols. They take the fight to the enemy.

We're getting sidetracked from my original point - that it isn't evil to destroy evil. Killing the enemy doesn't make us animals - as Toad Brother would have us believe.

Correct, the lawful killing of the enemy doen't make you an animal.

Stress the lawful...

[Oleg Bach]

How would people like to be put in a city jail cell and suddenly there is social break down and orders are given to execute even the imprisoned shop lifter and fine dodgers? When a creature - human or other wise are confined with no route of retreat or exit..you do not shoot them - Once a person is arrested, detained and under control there is no reason to kill them. This is one of the reasons I do not believe in capital punishement - even in the animal kingdom you get a fighting chance to flee or fight. Only cowards and sadists kill those that are helpless though bondage - be it a cell or hand cuffs. If you think it's fine to kill an arrested and confined person..then why bother waging war - nuke them all now!

[GostHacked]

I really do not want to get into a history discussion in this thread, but until the enemy surrendered (something unlikely to happen in this war), it was no-holds-barred wanton destruction of the enemy. it was annihilation. Nowadays, we send our troops in to do hand-to-hand combat, going house to house and not attacking until being attacked, it is insanity. I am well aware of the many "disappearing" Nazis after the war, the many companies that are still around today that cooperated with the Nazis knowing exactly what they were up to, etc. We're getting sidetracked from my original point - that it isn't evil to destroy evil. Killing the enemy doesn't make us animals - as Toad Brother would have us believe.

Learn some history, it will serve you well.

The real difference here is that this 'enemy' has no geographical boundries. In WWII we knew exactly where the enemy was and where they came from. You don't have that in the war against terrorism. Iraq, Afghanistan, possibly Iran and Pakistan now, not to mention Sudan, Somalia, ..... ect ect ect. This enemy simply has no boundries and because of that, it is a very difficult , i'd say near impossible to actually defeat this enemy.

But sure, back to the topic at hand. It's simple. If we don't hold ourselves to our standards and freedoms, why should we expect anyone else to? That seems quite hypocritical.

Edited November 19, 2009 by GostHacked

[DogOnPorch]

I know! I'm well aware that you're on the right side of these issues.

M.Dancer knows a thing 'er two, as well. He's not the enemy as you and I might term it.

[ToadBrother]

It was shocking when CNN gave a report entitled "Battle Field Justice" - They interviewed a crazy young America soldier who thought it was just fine to capture Iraq fighters or percieved threats and shoot them in the back of the head and dumping their bodies in a cannal...Is there something wrong with me to see the similarities of this type of murder - with what the Nazis were doing? They don't even call it murder - they try to justify it - The young American soldier that witnessed this "execution" - looked like the type that liked killing - What is America to do when thousands of their disturbed or sadistic by nature soldiers return?

I think you'll find that during WWII Allied soldiers did much the same. It's not right, and I don't defend it, but it's very easy for us folks sitting comfortably in our living rooms to judge soldiers harshly for what goes on in a battlefield.

I felt much the same about what happened to the Airborne Regiment in Somalia. These guys were stationed in one of the biggest hell holes in the world, with no law and order and no way to meaningfully recognize the people you were protecting from the people that were trying to blow you up. These guys, who, by the way, were some of the toughest mother-f---ers Canada ever produced in the way of soldiers, could go two ways, either turn into catatonic headcases like Dallaire when he was saddled with probably the most criminally idiotic nonintervention orders in the history of military affairs, or turn paranoid.

Whether it was Rwanda, Somalia or Iraq, the failure wasn't in the soldiers, whose training has been since the dawn of standing armies to kill the enemy, it's with crappy orders from on-high, usually starting with politicians and bureaucrats who know nothing about conditions on the ground, and whose motivations for anything are heavily suspect. Of course, our solution in these matters is not to throw the politicians, bureaucrats and the heads of the international organizations who get our young men and women involved in the conflicts in jail, it's to go after the soldiers. Whatever ultimately happens, you can be sure those useless vile SOBs will never get what they ought to, which is dropped into the arenas of conflict they send so many brave people into.

Edited November 19, 2009 by ToadBrother

[ToadBrother]

If you've been reading any of my rants, you're probably aware I equate Islamo-fascism with National Socialism and like to point out its direct connection to the Nazi movement.

Other than some pretty clear anti-Semitism, I see nothing in common. In a lot of ways, Islamism's political goals seem far more closely aligned with Communism/Socialism, and in fact, one of the major ways in which Islamism grows itself is through offering what the corrupt governments in the Central Asia, Middle East and North-East Africa don't, and that's education, food, and some purpose. Of course, the purpose is pretty vile, and the education bent towards creating fanatics, but the Islamists are filling the hole that the governments of these places never could.

As to the Taliban, well those are a Western, and in particular an American creation. They are the Frankenstein's Monster which the US constructed to take on the Soviets. The problem was that they never bothered sticking around after the Soviets fled to dismantle the beast, and instead it mixed and merged with various other fanatical and fundamentalist groups to form that delightful hodgepodge of tribalism, politics and religion that we call the Taliban.

[myata]

Of course, our solution in these matters is not to throw the politicians, bureaucrats and the heads of the international organizations who get our young men and women involved in the conflicts in jail,

I'd love that solution. For it to actually work though, we'd need a law by which all these falks could be prosecuted - because there'll never be a time when a little successful "operation" wouldn't earn a few useful benefits to this bureaucrat, or that politician - the law that would deem these operations clearly and unmistakenly illegal and criminal, and anybody complicit in them, from organisation to execution - liable to criminal prosecution.

Yes we can defend our country without messing up in others.