Certain Peoples Enjoy Living Like Animals Over 5000 Year Period

[Michael Hardner]

WB

Why do you disagree that culture is not a root cause? Culture is what makes a people prone to violence, or not! One of the greatest gifts to our culture was the medieval concept that justice belonged to the King or State instead of just individual feuds, vendettas and revenge. It would appear that many peoples of the middle east have never adopted that concept.

Culture by its very definition explains why one society values life so highly that it will not execute even serial child killers (ours, for e.g.) and another will cheerfully blow up innocents for some nebulous political goal (middle east)!

Or are you suggesting that ALL cultures are equally positive in all their aspects?

I suppose it depends on what you mean by root cause. I don't try to equate cultures in the way you're saying. Ok... I think I understand what you're saying.

[jbg]

Biological? NO! That would be unscientific rubbish. All races of Man seem able to be equally stupid in such matters. Adopt a baby from a violent culture and raise him in the west and you end up with a western culture adult and not a suicide bomber, no matter what his race. Vice versa, sadly.

Agreed. I never said it was racial or religious. Just cultural.

Culture by its very definition explains why one society values life so highly that it will not execute even serial child killers (ours, for e.g.) and another will cheerfully blow up innocents for some nebulous political goal (middle east)!

Or are you suggesting that ALL cultures are equally positive in all their aspects?

How about a "Cultural Revolution"? Mao would be proud.

[jbg]

I deleted the thread this led to.

Edited November 23, 2009 by jbg

[BC_chick]

Some Palestinians think Jews are Apes.

Me... I think calling people animals doesn't show much 'humanity' for the person doing the name-calling. Eh jbg?

[Guest TrueMetis]

Some Palestinians think Jews are Apes.

Me... I think calling people animals doesn't show much 'humanity' for the person doing the name-calling. Eh jbg?

All Humans are apes, we're monkeys to.

[jbg]

Some Palestinians think Jews are Apes.

Me... I think calling people animals doesn't show much 'humanity' for the person doing the name-calling. Eh jbg?

I didn't say they were animals. I said they enjoy living like animals. Otherwise, why the beheadings, etc.?

[Guest TrueMetis]

I didn't say they were animals. I said they enjoy living like animals. Otherwise, why the beheadings, etc.?

It's corporal punishment no different than hanging, electrocution, lethal injection, ect

[jbg]

It's corporal punishment no different than hanging, electrocution, lethal injection, ect

Please.

The Jewish population of Israel doesn't, by and large, set dogs on fire with the names of political opponents emblazoned on them. Corporal punishment is far different in both degree and kind from a beheading.

[jbg]

Saturday morning at Torah Study the study group covered the story of Isaac having to redig wells his father had dug. It is interesting that the Phillistines had plugged them for no good reason.

Does this remind anyone of any modern events? Hint (follow link for clues).

[Guest TrueMetis]

Please.

The Jewish population of Israel doesn't, by and large, set dogs on fire with the names of political opponents emblazoned on them. Corporal punishment is far different in both degree and kind from a beheading.

First off what does lighting a dog on fire have to do with killing a person? Second beheading is no different than any corporal punishment.

[jbg]

Second beheading is no different than any corporal punishment.

Not always (link):

corporal punishment - the infliction of physical injury on someone convicted of committing a crime

penalisation, penalization, penalty, punishment - the act of punishing

whacking, beating, drubbing, licking, thrashing, trouncing, lacing - the act of inflicting corporal punishment with repeated blows

electric shock - the use of electricity to administer punishment or torture; "they used cattle prods to administer electric shocks"

capital punishment, death penalty, executing, execution - putting a condemned person to death

gauntlet, gantlet - a form of punishment in which a person is forced to run between two lines of men facing each other and armed with clubs or whips to beat the victim

kick in the butt - punishment inflicted by kicking the victim in the behind

lapidation, stoning - the act of pelting with stones; punishment inflicted by throwing stones at the victim (even unto death)

Only a few possible corporate punishments involve the use of deadly force.

[Guest TrueMetis]

Oh guess I ment Capital punishment then. whoops.

Edited November 23, 2009 by TrueMetis

[Black Dog]

Agreed. I never said it was racial or religious. Just cultural.

I didn't say they were animals. I said they enjoy living like animals. Otherwise, why the beheadings, etc.?

Of FFS. Man up. It's plain as day what you mean, you just lack the balls to come right out and say it without equivocation.

[BubberMiley]

I wouldn't be afraid New Jerseyites are like animals. I've seen the Sopranos.

[bush_cheney2004]

I wouldn't be afraid New Jerseyites are like animals. I've seen the Sopranos.

Must be why so many Canadians go to New Jersey:

You don't need a calendar to tell you when it's Summer in New Jersey. Just take a ride on the Garden State Parkway and count the Canadian license plates headed south. For perhaps two decades Canadians have been invading my home state's shore points in growing numbers. And most of them, it would seem, go to the four similarly named beach resort towns collectively called The Wildwoods (Wildwood, Wildwood Crest, North Wildwood, and West Wildwood),

http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/344398/coin_hunting_on_wildwood_new_jerseys.html

[jbg]

Of FFS. Man up. It's plain as day what you mean, you just lack the balls to come right out and say it without equivocation.

Say what?

Are you going to think in a logical or just a politically correct manner? Why is it, over a three-day period, we've had the Somali attack, two major suicide bombing in Pakistan, and a hat-trick (3 simultaneous) bombing in Baghdad with 127 killed? This is how these "people" fight each other and, when the fancy strikes as it did on 911 us.

I repeat, are you being logical or politically correct?

[Michael Hardner]

We've gone over this territory many, many times jbg and no one has ever explained how a religion causes violence, on these boards. The best we've done is to have emotional bleating (a la Wulf) about 'radical Islam' but nothing of substance comes out of those discussions: no conclusions about policy change, no convincing explanation of the relationship between religions, cultures, and violence.

[jbg]

We've gone over this territory many, many times jbg and no one has ever explained how a religion causes violence, on these boards. The best we've done is to have emotional bleating (a la Wulf) about 'radical Islam' but nothing of substance comes out of those discussions: no conclusions about policy change, no convincing explanation of the relationship between religions, cultures, and violence.

Perhaps a better way of phrasing it is that many of the underlying cultures that Islam overlays are violent and tribal. And further, Islam has done nothing to improve that situation. Christianity (and Judaism) have improved, on a net basis, the level of civilization of most people in their sphere of influence. The Islamic world is characterized by violence, ignorance and grinding poverty. Probably not because of Islam, but Islam, as I said, has not improved matters either.

[Michael Hardner]

Perhaps a better way of phrasing it is that many of the underlying cultures that Islam overlays are violent and tribal. And further, Islam has done nothing to improve that situation. Christianity (and Judaism) have improved, on a net basis, the level of civilization of most people in their sphere of influence. The Islamic world is characterized by violence, ignorance and grinding poverty. Probably not because of Islam, but Islam, as I said, has not improved matters either.

You can't seem to phrase things without emphasizing religion. Christianity evolved in Europe, which was and is at the top of the world's heirarchy. Christianity has been present in other countries that haven't improved - so why not attribute that to the religion ?

I would say that lapsed Christianity allowed for investment and corporations, so that's - in a sense - how Christianity helped the world evolve.

We can continue to complain about Islam, though, if it makes some people feel better.

I will be clear, though, and state that religious zealots such as are the extremists of that particular religion are a pernicious threat to our safety, and they need to be taken seriously - including restrictions on our rights, eavesdropping and what have you in order to be defeated. They have the full weight of their god behind them, so we need to take extra measures.

[Shwa]

Perhaps a better way of phrasing it is that many of the underlying cultures that Islam overlays are violent and tribal. And further, Islam has done nothing to improve that situation. Christianity (and Judaism) have improved, on a net basis, the level of civilization of most people in their sphere of influence. The Islamic world is characterized by violence, ignorance and grinding poverty. Probably not because of Islam, but Islam, as I said, has not improved matters either.

While trying to maintain a sense of decorum, I must submit that your statement here is a big, steaming pile of bullsh*t.

A. What is true for Islam re: violent and tribal cultures is just as true for Judaism and Christianity.

B. That Islam has "done nothing to improve" ignores a great chunk of history (eg. see "Dark Ages") and ignores all the violence and murder perpetrated under the watchful eyes of Jews and Christians up to and including modern times.

C. "Levels of civilization" are not determined or measured by religion.

D. Saying the "...Islamic world is characterized by violence, ignorance and grinding poverty." is completely untrue. The "Islamic world" is present in many nations all over the planet, most of them wealthy, enlightened and peaceful nations at that.

The only reason I can possibly think of for someone posting that kind of intense level of bullsh*t is because they live with such an over-abundance of fear they feel the need to spread it around because, you know, misery loves company.

Its the Global Village man, move past the fear or stay in your hut and shut up about it.

Edited December 11, 2009 by Shwa

[Shwa]

I will be clear, though, and state that religious zealots such as are the extremists of that particular religion are a pernicious threat to our safety, and they need to be taken seriously - including restrictions on our rights, eavesdropping and what have you in order to be defeated. They have the full weight of their god behind them, so we need to take extra measures.

How ironic. That is, using the word 'zealot.'

Why say "that particular religion" when your statement is true for zealots of all particular religions?

[jbg]

While trying to maintain a sense of decorum, I must submit that your statement here is a big, steaming pile of bullsh*t.

A. What is true for Islam re: violent and tribal cultures is just as true for Judaism and Christianity.

Complete with profanity in attacking me and my post.

I was careful to state that in prior eras Christianity and Judaism were indeed associated with violence. Eventually their doctrinal love of peace did filter to conduct. The problem is that Islam's message of peace is at best a mixed bag, and is not neutral between Muslims and non-Muslims.

B. That Islam has "done nothing to improve" ignores a great chunk of history (eg. see "Dark Ages") and ignores all the violence and murder perpetrated under the watchful eyes of Jews and Christians up to and including modern times.

As I just said, that was then this is now. Even during the Dark Ages, the desert core regions of Islam were plenty violent. Where Islam overlay the comparitively mellow Iberian Peninsula cultures there were many constructive results, and things were indeed better than in adjacent Dark Ages Europe. Unfortunately it was not to last.

C. "Levels of civilization" are not determined or measured by religion.

Agreed.

D. Saying the "...Islamic world is characterized by violence, ignorance and grinding poverty." is completely untrue. The "Islamic world" is present in many nations all over the planet, most of them wealthy, enlightened and peaceful nations at that.

Some are wealthy though none that are wealthy are also enlightened and peaceful with the partial (until the last few weeks) exception of the United Arab Emirates. Even those nations do not have the usual accompaniments of economic accomplishment, to wit, representative government. As for other wealthy lands there is nothing enlightened or peaceful about Saudi Arabia, Indonesia etc. Indeed in many of those countries the people live in grinding poverty. Never mind Pakistan, Bangladesh etc.

The only reason I can possibly think of for someone posting that kind of intense level of bullsh*t is because they live with such an over-abundance of fear they feel the need to spread it around because, you know, misery loves company.

Its the Global Village man, move past the fear or stay in your hut and shut up about it.

Over-abundance of fear? September 11?

[Guest American Woman]

... beheading is no different than any corporal [capital] punishment.

Actually, it is different. First of all, from what I've read, if the person doing the beheading isn't strong enough or isn't competent, the death can be slow and excruciatingly painful. Secondly, capital punishment follows a guilty verdict for a crime in the category of murder in the first degree, so kidnapping an innocent victim such as Daniel Pearl, and beheading him, is vastly different from capital punishment.

I don't care for this type of thread and have said so before, and that goes for all the threads berating Jews/Israel in the same way, too, but terrorism does exist, and when it does, when innocent people are beheaded at the hands of terrorists, it most definitely is not correct to say: It's corporal [capital] punishment no different than hanging, electrocution, lethal injection, ect. Surely you must recognize that.

[Guest TrueMetis]

Actually, it is different. First of all, from what I've read, if the person doing the beheading isn't strong enough or isn't competent, the death can be slow and excruciatingly painful. Secondly, capital punishment follows a guilty verdict for a crime in the category of murder in the first degree, so kidnapping an innocent victim such as Daniel Pearl, and beheading him, is vastly different from capital punishment.

I don't care for this type of thread and have said so before, and that goes for all the threads berating Jews/Israel in the same way, too, but terrorism does exist, and when it does, when innocent people are beheaded at the hands of terrorists, it most definitely is not correct to say: It's corporal [capital] punishment no different than hanging, electrocution, lethal injection, ect. Surely you must recognize that.

By the same I mean it is also brutal painful and wrong. Electrocution is incredibly painful as are all electric shocks. Hanging works fine if the persons neck breaks but that is by no means a sure thing. Lethal injection might not be as painless as everyone assumes as well.

My link

Conclusions

We were able to analyze only a limited number of executions. However, our findings suggest that current lethal injection protocols may not reliably effect death through the mechanisms intended, indicating a failure of design and implementation. If thiopental and potassium chloride fail to cause anesthesia and cardiac arrest, potentially aware inmates could die through pancuronium-induced asphyxiation. Thus the conventional view of lethal injection leading to an invariably peaceful and painless death is questionable.

[Guest American Woman]

By the same I mean it is also brutal painful and wrong. Electrocution is incredibly painful as are all electric shocks. Hanging works fine if the persons neck breaks but that is by no means a sure thing. Lethal injection might not be as painless as everyone assumes as well.

My link

We've done away with methods of capital punishment that aren't deemed as humane as our civilizations have progressed, so while lethal injection "might" not be as painless as everyone assumes, it's not comparable to a terrorist carrying out a beheading; I know without a doubt which I'd pick if I had to choose. Furthermore, I think the fact that people receiving capital punishment took a life/lives puts it in a different category of "wrong" than acts of terrorism. In other words, I don't think it's the same. Someone isn't being picked at random out of anger; they committed, chose to commit, a horrible crime.