Just one more dead soldier

[Sir Bandelot]

Hubris Alert.

....Cause CTV, CBC, Global, Globe and Mail, Canwest, Torstar.....really don't reach as many people as Sir Bandelot and his gloomy few.....

There's hardly any detailed discussion in those news sources about the problem. A brief mention that someone died, fairly low key, very few questioning if what we're doing is the right way.

Gloomy, no. serious, sober, yes. But you just party on, M.Dancer. Because there's no problem here, that you can tell.

[M.Dancer]

There's hardly any detailed discussion in those news sources about the problem. A brief mention that someone died, fairly low key, very few questioning if what we're doing is the right way.

Gloomy, no. serious, sober, yes. But you just party on, M.Dancer. Because there's no problem here, that you can tell.

Problem? That soldiers die in war? You think that's a problem that isn't discussed?

Not only is it discussed, it is rehearsed, trained, and gone over 1000 x 1000 times....

I mean really, do you think they still form up for battle in serried ranks?

Soldiers will always die in war, that's why they are paid so fucking well....

Edited November 2, 2009 by M.Dancer

[Sir Bandelot]

Problem? That soldiers die in war? You think that's a problem that isn't discussed?

Not only is it discussed, it is rehearsed, trained, and gone over 1000 x 1000 times....

I mean really, do you think they still form up for battle in serried ranks?

Soldiers will always die in war, that's why they are paid so fucking well....

Thanks for proving my point... there is no problem here that you can see.

[M.Dancer]

Thanks for proving my point... there is no problem here that you can see.

You don't have a point. You have an emotion. Death makes you sad. You don't want debate, you want a kleenex.

[Army Guy]

Oh yes we can point the finger at them. Someone has to. Canadians are asleep on this issue, either oblivious or don't care. I say its both. Which is part of my criticism in this thread in the first place. But we expect our government to live up to their part of the deal because they are in charge of the money we give them. If our troops must go to war we expect they should have the right equipment, or whatever else is needed to get the job done. Thats what will win and end the war. And thats also brought up plainly by me in this thread. If you didn't read it go back and read it.

If we are going to assign blame then one must also have the balls to stand up and own our share of it...We all know how our government works, what drives it into action, what puts problems on thier radar screen...Thats votes, and public opinion, and in the end each party will do what needs to be done in order to get them re elected...and according to recent polls a majority of Canadians do not support this mission, but here is the catch they are not willing to take action on thier own to press the issue, sure there is small protests here and there, but nothing in the numbers required to make changes, or have our government take notice....

Same with the pro war movement, thier has been many actions that they have taken to prove thier piont, however, nothing that will tilt the scale in thier favour...

But this is typical Canadian behavior, we allow our government to basically run the country as "they" see fit, election promises don't mean shit....and change on a whim, It's like Canadians have lost faith in our entire way of governence, and refuse for the most part take up thier role in how our country is run...to use thier given rights to make changes...But we are content to allow our government to do the things they do, were like a beaten dog....yes we will whine and even piont fingers...but in the end we will except what our government feeds us , and moan and groan and then the next day ask for more....I'm starting to think it is something that defines this new generation of Canadians...

So while we demand our government to live up to it's part, we must not forget that we also have a part to play, and it does not just end at the voting booth, hoping our government does the right thing....

You say, people should spring into action or stfu, well you know what, you can't have it both ways. This is my small amount of action, to try and criticize whats going on at least it's better than doing nothing. Most people don't even get to hear about it, the media is controlled to keep us from knowing much about whats going on. I get some news from foreign news sites, or try to put the story together from scattered bits of information, but thats because I care enough to take the time to look for it. You won't hear much on CTV news at 6pm.

That is how our system works, Ask that Ottawa lawyer how it works, one man made a diference his vioce was heard and our government took action...if you stay on the couch and say nothing then you allow the government see govern as they see fit...

Don't tell me to shut up... if it wasn't for me and a few others trying to say something, hardly anyone would know this guy had died, and that we are in a kind of political limbo, putting brakes on the war effort. Heck maybe giving it a final date of 2011 has just exacerbated the problem. There's no need to invest any more into it, since we expect to be getting out of there.

My piont is this, if Canadians are not willing to take the action required to drive our government into action one way or the other then step aside...that is my piont...because now we have status qoe, and are in limbo, Yes the war effort is getting some funding, not enough to sway it in any major dirrection....and all it is doing is making our soldiers suffer....Hence why i have said many times this is not a Canadian conflict or mission....it is our soldiers conflict, we own it, we are putting all the effort into it, we are making it work very slowly but it is still working....we have been forgotton by the other half of Canadians....In the end we all want the same thing to come home...soldiers want to win it then come home , it is what we do, it is built into who we are...for a majority of Canadians they are tired of the conflict, it eats up to much of thier time, they want to move on...it is who they are...

I guess the ball is in your court, it's time for you to dance or sit back down....Every Canadian soldier that serves in Afghan is clearly making a statement, and is clearly doing what it takes to ensure we remain on mission...as for us thier is no rallies we can attend....instead we sopeak by volunteering for another tour....We've been dancing for 8 years now....i don't think it would be to much to ask if you took your turn....not only ensuring that our soldiers are looked after....but our best interests are as well.

[Shwa]

Why do we still have troops there again? Does anyone know?

[eyeball]

SO while it's nice to piont the finger at our government ....i think Canadians should also take up thier share of the blame....and either spring into action or Shut TFU....like BC said earlier we should own every descision our government makes on our behalf, don't like it change it....use the freedoms that have been given to all of us....sometimes all it takes is to reach down and give them alittle squezze....Sorry ladies....

Our soldiers are waiting as we have been for over 8 years for the majority to reach down and give them a squezze...

take them for alittle test drive either we are at WAR and you support us totally , or we are not and you bring us home.....

Don't blame me for your troubles. I think its hilarious that you want me to take responsibilty for the decision to send you to war knowing you'd probably take up arms to prevent Canadians from directly voting on the question.

The only possible thing that might give you the right to tell me to spring into action is if you were a conscript that was forced into becoming a soldier against your will. OTOH if you as a willing volunteer were paying for your own ticket I'd be happy to STFU - but only after you took our flag off your uniform.

[Wilber]

Don't blame me for your troubles. I think its hilarious that you want me to take responsibilty for the decision to send you to war knowing you'd probably take up arms to prevent Canadians from directly voting on the question.

The only possible thing that might give you the right to tell me to spring into action is if you were a conscript that was forced into becoming a soldier against your will. OTOH if you as a willing volunteer were paying for your own ticket I'd be happy to STFU - but only after you took our flag off your uniform.

That's one of the most asinine things I have read on this forum.

[eyeball]

That's one of the most asinine things I have read on this forum.

What's THE most?

[Sir Bandelot]

The only possible thing that might give you the right to tell me to spring into action is if you were a conscript that was forced into becoming a soldier against your will. OTOH if you as a willing volunteer were paying for your own ticket I'd be happy to STFU - but only after you took our flag off your uniform.

Well I look at it this way- when someone decides to join the military, it means among other things that they give trust to the government and the people of Canada that they will be sent on missions with proper support and expectations of success. Of course they know there is a chance they'll be killed, that is obvious to anyone with a brain. Much like police or firefighters are in high risk, potentially lethal situations that goes with the "job". But that does not mean they should be used like some form of cannon-fodder, either recklessly or through incompetence. Our obligation is to ensure that doesn't happen, or if it does, that some kind of action, protest, letters to the media should be carried out.

I don't believe that Canadians can vote on the wars we send our troops into. For one thing that is decided partly on legal obligations to international treaties. And people are selfish- even is a majority is against the war in principle, they aren't necessarily willing to vote out the sitting government to replace it with a new one, perhaps because of other issues that new government creates. In our case even if it came between Liberals and Conservatives, I doubt it would make any real difference.

Governments are selfish too, they have clearly demonstrated a willingness to spend big money on bank and auto company bailouts, all the while penny-pinching on the war effort. They have set the date for an exit as 2011, and so there will not be a big investment in money for a military endeavor that has essentially become a dead-end.

I say this is a betrayal of the troops.

Edited November 4, 2009 by Sir Bandelot

[Army Guy]

Don't blame me for your troubles. I think its hilarious that you want me to take responsibilty for the decision to send you to war knowing you'd probably take up arms to prevent Canadians from directly voting on the question.

Ah yes another man of action, I'm not blaming anyone for any decisions....in fact Eyeball i supported the decision so, much i volunteered not once but three times to serve in Afghan....i call that springing into action, so for a man that does not support the mission , other than expressing yourself here, what have you done, in regards to making a change to support your beliefs....All i'm saying if your not willing to stand up for those beliefs then really your just mumbling into the wind. And going with the flow....

The only possible thing that might give you the right to tell me to spring into action is if you were a conscript that was forced into becoming a soldier against your will. OTOH if you as a willing volunteer were paying for your own ticket I'd be happy to STFU - but only after you took our flag off your uniform.

Your missing the piont here once again, your mumbling into the wind, because your not willing to hold our government to the task, sure you'll mumble but not not willing to get off the couch and do something about it....Those that have done something about thier beliefs are tiried of the whinning and complaining...and now want to here your silence...or see your action.....there is more to being a citizen than just paying taxes....i don't think i can make it any clearer....

[Army Guy]

Well I look at it this way- when someone decides to join the military, it means among other things that they give trust to the government and the people of Canada that they will be sent on missions with proper support and expectations of success. Of course they know there is a chance they'll be killed, that is obvious to anyone with a brain. Much like police or firefighters are in high risk, potentially lethal situations that goes with the "job". But that does not mean they should be used like some form of cannon-fodder, either recklessly or through incompetence. Our obligation is to ensure that doesn't happen, or if it does, that some kind of action, protest, letters to the media should be carried out.

I don't believe that Canadians can vote on the wars we send our troops into. For one thing that is decided partly on legal obligations to international treaties. And people are selfish- even is a majority is against the war in principle, they aren't necessarily willing to vote out the sitting government to replace it with a new one, perhaps because of other issues that new government creates. In our case even if it came between Liberals and Conservatives, I doubt it would make any real difference.

Governments are selfish too, they have clearly demonstrated a willingness to spend big money on bank and auto company bailouts, all the while penny-pinching on the war effort. They have set the date for an exit as 2011, and so there will not be a big investment in money for a military endeavor that has essentially become a dead-end.

I say this is a betrayal of the troops.

Well said...The people of Canada are our nations Military safety net, we depend on you for our safety as much as you depend on our support for yours...

this is exactly what the lawyer from ottawa did his lone vioce was heard, and our government was forced into action...into making changes in regards to this conflict....The power remains with the people if the government wants to remain in power...unless you allow the government to run this country the way they want, such as what is happening today....then we deserve exactly what is giving out...And we need to stand up and own that decision...because that is what we want, or will accept.....

[Jerry J. Fortin]

Well said...The people of Canada are our nations Military safety net, we depend on you for our safety as much as you depend on our support for yours...

this is exactly what the lawyer from ottawa did his lone vioce was heard, and our government was forced into action...into making changes in regards to this conflict....The power remains with the people if the government wants to remain in power...unless you allow the government to run this country the way they want, such as what is happening today....then we deserve exactly what is giving out...And we need to stand up and own that decision...because that is what we want, or will accept.....

Interesting view. I would add that apathy is a democratic disease that is highly communicable. That apathy is taking root in this nation due to the lack of visionary leadership.

[eyeball]

Well I look at it this way- when someone decides to join the military, it means among other things that they give trust to the government and the people of Canada that they will be sent on missions with proper support and expectations of success. Of course they know there is a chance they'll be killed, that is obvious to anyone with a brain. Much like police or firefighters are in high risk, potentially lethal situations that goes with the "job". But that does not mean they should be used like some form of cannon-fodder, either recklessly or through incompetence. Our obligation is to ensure that doesn't happen, or if it does, that some kind of action, protest, letters to the media should be carried out.

I was a volunteer firefighter for five years so I can grok this but I also recall their always being funding issues and there were often never enough volunteers to even safely attack a fire etc. In my departments case I found five years after the fact that I was never really covered under any proper insurance despite being told otherwise. It wasn't these so much that caused me to pack it in but...well read on.

I don't believe that Canadians can vote on the wars we send our troops into. For one thing that is decided partly on legal obligations to international treaties.

Can or should? In the case of an imminent invasion on our borders by an armed and obviously expeditionary force (as opposed to simply being attacked by terrorists or freedom fighters) it should go without saying that voting to defend ourselves would be a rather stupid thing to do. Our decisions to send our troops on armed expeditions outside our borders however are an entirely different matter that we should definitely be voting on. We are after all sending these people out to kill in our names. In a democracy we are ulitmately responsible for our governments actions. The only way for us to properly own these decisions is to actually make them ourselves. The very last people I would ever leave such morally important decisions up to is our politicians. As for our volunteer soldiers, why you people keep coming back for more abuse is anyone's guess but that said, looking back on my own experience again as a volunteer firefighter it was only the very strong likelihood that our chief was actually a firebug that finally pushed me to give my head a really serious shake.

In the case of our treaties and alliances, we should be putting all of our existing one's to a full public review followed by a referendum on whether to maintain them. There is far too much evidence for my liking that some of our allies are the root cause of so much of the conflict in the world. In a comparison of volunteer soldiers to volunteer firefighters, fighting a war alongside some of our more agressive allies can be compared to fighting a fire alongside a firebug. People would probably be shocked if they knew just how many firefighters turn out to be firebugs.

And people are selfish- even is a majority is against the war in principle, they aren't necessarily willing to vote out the sitting government to replace it with a new one, perhaps because of other issues that new government creates. In our case even if it came between Liberals and Conservatives, I doubt it would make any real difference.

Governments are selfish too, they have clearly demonstrated a willingness to spend big money on bank and auto company bailouts, all the while penny-pinching on the war effort. They have set the date for an exit as 2011, and so there will not be a big investment in money for a military endeavor that has essentially become a dead-end.

I say this is a betrayal of the troops.

They're grown-ups, ultimately they're responsible for the decisions they make too.

[bush_cheney2004]

In the case of our treaties and alliances, we should be putting all of our existing one's to a full public review followed by a referendum on whether to maintain them. There is far too much evidence for my liking that some of our allies are the root cause of so much of the conflict in the world....

Well, I suppose the next logical step would be a plebicite to attack Canada?

[eyeball]

Well said...The people of Canada are our nations Military safety net, we depend on you for our safety as much as you depend on our support for yours...

Why can't you depend on the people of Canada to make the decision to go to war abroad? You seem to realize you can't depend on the politicians.

The power remains with the people if the government wants to remain in power...

Power? You mean the election they deign to let us have whenever it suits them?

unless you allow the government to run this country the way they want, such as what is happening today....then we deserve exactly what is giving out...And we need to stand up and own that decision...because that is what we want, or will accept...

You kinda lost me here. I really don't have a clue what you want and I don't think you do either. It sounds like you know you can't trust the government but you only think you can't trust the people. How does anyone really know for sure that voters can't be trusted to directly decide to go to war or who our allies should be and who we should have treaties with? Are there any examples of declarations of war made or not made directly by voters that resulted in a disaster for them down the road?

[Army Guy]

Why can't you depend on the people of Canada to make the decision to go to war abroad? You seem to realize you can't depend on the politicians

For the same reason that Sir Bandalot has clearly pionted out here...Take this conflict for instance an overall majority of Canadians were in fact in favour of this mission, mind you it was the lesser of two evils, when they decided on it, ....and here today the majority seem NOT to support the mission....although they are willing to vioce thier opinions at the supper table or dinner parties, they are not willing to do anything meaningful to see thier new beliefs through....in other words they talk a good game, but still want to remain on the bench.

As for the politicians, they are as trust worthy as we the people make them....They govern the way they do because we let them...How many Canadians out there actually follow politics, would you say the majority of Canadians....and if they are not following the way this country is being run then they deserve what the government gives them...And if we are not going to take them to task for any wrong doing or decisions we don't like then what gives us the right to bitch and whine or piont fingers at what we don't like...

I've said many times here that the Canadian people are our safety net, in regards to keeping our military up to par in relation to the taskings that we are assigned...todays military state is in poor condition, as you've said so yourself. So ask yourself would you allow the these same people to make the decision if we go to war or not....judging by the state of our current military, i'd say no....

You kinda lost me here. I really don't have a clue what you want and I don't think you do either. It sounds like you know you can't trust the government but you only think you can't trust the people. How does anyone really know for sure that voters can't be trusted to directly decide to go to war or who our allies should be and who we should have treaties with? Are there any examples of declarations of war made or not made directly by voters that resulted in a disaster for them down the road?

I think it's spelled out pretty clear in the above para's, the entire apparatus that makes this country tick have let itself down, and currently i'd much rather that power that decides how our nation is run , who makes the policies is much better left to the politicains....as alot of Canadians can not even get off the couch to manually adjust the TV much less vote on topics that require them to do research and homework on....This entire Afghan mission is a prefect case example...

Edited November 5, 2009 by Army Guy

[eyeball]

For the same reason that Sir Bandalot has clearly pionted out here...Take this conflict for instance an overall majority of Canadians were in fact in favour of this mission, mind you it was the lesser of two evils, when they decided on it,

When WHO decided on it? Ordinary Canadians had nothing to do with the decision to go. I certainly tried to make it known how I felt by writing letters to MP's and editors etc but beyond that there was nothing any ordinary Canadian could do to influence the governments decision. How do we know how many Canadians really supported this mission?

....and here today the majority seem NOT to support the mission....although they are willing to vioce thier opinions at the supper table or dinner parties, they are not willing to do anything meaningful to see thier new beliefs through....in other words they talk a good game, but still want to remain on the bench.

So you need to see millions of Canadians in the steets to know we're serious about getting out of a war but when it comes to getting into one a few polls before a quick vote in Parliament is enough to know we're with you all the way?

As for the politicians, they are as trust worthy as we the people make them....They govern the way they do because we let them...

...as we the people make them eh? I don't remember any ordinary Canadians writing our Constitution, do you? You are living in a world of make-believe if you actually think we had any say in how we wish to be goverened. Maybe the Magna Carta does it for you but that was a little before my time.

How many Canadians out there actually follow politics, would you say the majority of Canadians....and if they are not following the way this country is being run then they deserve what the government gives them...And if we are not going to take them to task for any wrong doing or decisions we don't like then what gives us the right to bitch and whine or piont fingers at what we don't like...

I'd say more than enough are following politics to begin using things like citizens assemblies to influence Ottawa's decisions. What do you mean by taking the government to task, voting once every blue moon or marching in our outaged millions on Ottawa?

I've said many times here that the Canadian people are our safety net, in regards to keeping our military up to par in relation to the taskings that we are assigned...todays military state is in poor condition, as you've said so yourself. So ask yourself would you allow the these same people to make the decision if we go to war or not....judging by the state of our current military, i'd say no....

I think it's spelled out pretty clear in the above para's, the entire apparatus that makes this country tick have let itself down, and currently i'd much rather that power that decides how our nation is run , who makes the policies is much better left to the politicains....

I still don't follow you. You insist its Canadian citizens you rely on the most to ensure the military is properly maintained and run but you'd much rather leave everything up to the politicians...

as alot of Canadians can not even get off the couch to manually adjust the TV much less vote on topics that require them to do research and homework on....This entire Afghan mission is a prefect case example...

Would you say the majority of Canadians?

This makes me ask the question again, how do we know how committed Canadians really were to this mission? You say the majority supported you at the beginning but given this support was probably based on their reactions to the images of 9/11 on the TV, your arguments sound confused to say the least. Do you honestly think the politicians are doing any meaningful research or homework? They don't have any time to give much thought to anything beyond reading the polls that are gaguing how people that are sitting on their couchs are reacting at the moment.