Why Layton won't get my vote.

[Bro]

A knock against the NDP more than him personally.

Poor track record.

NDP believe there is endless supply of taxpayers.

In the end,their policies usually leave the bank empty.

[falling leaf]

Bro

NDP believe there is endless supply of taxpayers.

In the end,their policies usually leave the bank empty

I could not have said it better myself Bro. If we were all NDP there would be no money left in just a few short years. They do not have a clue when it comes to money sense.

They think it grows on trees.

[Hjalmar]

Why would anyone vote NDP today when we all know that the cupboard is bare.

[August1991]

"They have the usual socialist disease; they have run out of other people's money."

Margaret Thatcher, speech to a Conservative Party Conference (October 10, 1975)

[BigGunner]

A knock against the NDP more than him personally.

Poor track record.

NDP believe there is endless supply of taxpayers.

In the end,their policies usually leave the bank empty.

Usual rhetoric from the conservative apologists out there. No big suprise really.

Speaking of the taxpayers cupboards, it was the PC's last government under Mulroney that added $300 billion to Canada's debt in less than nine years, and that is even with imposing the hated GST that takes money from hard earned Canadians. They never did balance the budget.

Wasn't it the Eves PC government that left a $5.6 billion deficit for Ontario? McGuinty is an asshat for raiding taxpayers cupboards, but the ontario conservatives put him in that terrible position.

And I seem to remember the humbled BC NDP leaving a $1.5 billion surplus for the newly elected BC Liberal government....and they turned that into the biggest deficts in BC's history. The Liberals (conservative) in BC racked up $10 billion in debt less than 3 years.

I understand the red-baiting and lies told by conservatives about the NDP...it sounds better than the exposed lies and propaganda, bankrupt and failed policies of their own legacy.

Election 2004: BRING IT ON!

[Black Dog]

I'll save the right wingers the trouble.

Speaking of the taxpayers cupboards, it was the PC's last government under Mulroney that added $300 billion to Canada's debt in less than nine years, and that is even with imposing the hated GST that takes money from hard earned Canadians. They never did balance the budget.

It's Trudeau's fault!!

Wasn't it the Eves PC government that left a $5.6 billion deficit for Ontario? McGuinty is an asshat for raiding taxpayers cupboards, but the ontario conservatives put him in that terrible position.

It's Rae's fault!

And I seem to remember the humbled BC NDP leaving a $1.5 billion surplus for the newly elected BC Liberal government....and they turned that into the biggest deficts in BC's history. The Liberals (conservative) in BC racked up $10 billion in debt less than 3 years.

It's Glen Clark's fault!

See, isn't being a right winger easy? It's always someone elses's fault.

[BigGunner]

I'll save the right wingers the trouble.

Speaking of the taxpayers cupboards, it was the PC's last government under Mulroney that added $300 billion to Canada's debt in less than nine years, and that is even with imposing the hated GST that takes money from hard earned Canadians. They never did balance the budget.

It's Trudeau's fault!!

Wasn't it the Eves PC government that left a $5.6 billion deficit for Ontario? McGuinty is an asshat for raiding taxpayers cupboards, but the ontario conservatives put him in that terrible position.

It's Rae's fault!

And I seem to remember the humbled BC NDP leaving a $1.5 billion surplus for the newly elected BC Liberal government....and they turned that into the biggest deficts in BC's history. The Liberals (conservative) in BC racked up $10 billion in debt less than 3 years.

It's Glen Clark's fault!

See, isn't being a right winger easy? It's always someone elses's fault.

Oh, that explains it all....its always someone elses fault. Now everyone can be a conservative and blame the other guy.

That is probably why the Repug's blame Clinton for 9/11.

Maybe I'll be a conservative too, so that I can blame everyone else for my own shortcomings then line my pockets with taxpayers cash.

[Black Dog]

Maybe I'll be a conservative too, so that I can blame everyone else for my own shortcomings then line my pockets with taxpayers cash.

Don't forget that you have to extoll the virtues of personal responsibility while doing it.

[BigGunner]

Maybe I'll be a conservative too, so that I can blame everyone else for my own shortcomings then line my pockets with taxpayers cash.

Don't forget that you have to extoll the virtues of personal responsibility while doing it.

That would fit in perfectly with Gordon Campbell's rant against the HEU's "illegal job action" from a convicted criminal of a premier. Nice..

[Sully]

See, isn't being a right winger easy? It's always someone elses's fault.

Ahhhhhh Black Dog tisk tisk for not doing your homework. Actually I would say being a left winger is even easier, you never have to do any research before you make a statement. Time you realize you cannot take most things politicians say to you at face value, even your "enlightened" NDP ers too, sorry thats reality.

As for the BC economy you must peel back the layers of the NDP onion and see the real facts behind the case of their huge surplus. I cannot off the top of my head give you the exact figures. But when a member of the provinicial government namely the the finance minister can manipulate the the expected revenues of a crown corporation i.e. BC Hydro then we can all make surpluses. The minister's wonderful expectations were unrealistic and surpassed those of the head of BC Hydro. Hmmmmmm I dunno bout you, but I am more likely to believe in the figures of the guy who works directly with the crown corp than believing the guy who works for the NDP and wants to be re-elected. I guess the Conservatives and Liberals can learn how to maintain a surplus budget, just dictate all future revenues of all crown corporations. No wonder the NDP is afraid of privitization of crown corps, means that money no longer grows on trees. And since there is more than one crown corporation that means more than likely there was more money growing on many trees for the NDP.

And if you want the numbers go look for yourself, its time you learned how to do some research.

[Black Dog]

As for the BC economy you must peel back the layers of the NDP onion and see the real facts behind the case of their huge surplus. I cannot off the top of my head give you the exact figures. But when a member of the provinicial government namely the the finance minister can manipulate the the expected revenues of a crown corporation i.e. BC Hydro then we can all make surpluses. The minister's wonderful expectations were unrealistic and surpassed those of the head of BC Hydro. Hmmmmmm I dunno bout you, but I am more likely to believe in the figures of the guy who works directly with the crown corp than believing the guy who works for the NDP and wants to be re-elected. I guess the Conservatives and Liberals can learn how to maintain a surplus budget, just dictate all future revenues of all crown corporations. No wonder the NDP is afraid of privitization of crown corps, means that money no longer grows on trees. And since there is more than one crown corporation that means more than likely there was more money growing on many trees for the NDP.

Whatever. As I've said elsewhere, there's something in the water out in BC that turns all politicians ciorrupt. But creative budget accounting is hardly th edomain of the NDP. here in Alberta, the KleinCons have mastered the art of hiding surpluses by creating various "funds" that can't be touched. Then they use their supposed poverty to justify spending cuts, low wages and unpopular polkicies like elctricity dergulation.

Time you realize you cannot take most things politicians say to you at face value.

Well, garsh, you mean some of them politicians might be a bit shady? Golly!

I may be a simple country boy but I'm not an idiot. I know damn well that power corrupts and that even the best intentioned or high-minded individuals can be won over by greed. But I like to have a little faith, especially in politicians who actually demand we expect more from the government than we tend to get. In my mind, that means people who don't make greed and self-interest the cornerstone of their personla philosophy.

[Sully]

Whatever. As I've said elsewhere, there's something in the water out in BC that turns all politicians ciorrupt. But creative budget accounting is hardly th edomain of the NDP. here in Alberta, the KleinCons have mastered the art of hiding surpluses by creating various "funds" that can't be touched. Then they use their supposed poverty to justify spending cuts, low wages and unpopular polkicies like elctricity dergulation.

Whatever, eh! Well defended.

You brought up the point of right leaning people blaming everyone else for anything that goes wrong during their administration. I am just bringing up valid points as to why an administration would have a legitimate reason for complaining about a previous government. In this instance, I have provided the reasons why the Liberals would complain. The surplus really was not there, I am just clarifying the points you have made.

I cannot comment really on Alberta's problems, do not know enough about them, but I am hoping you can shed some light on these secret "funds". Could you provide some information on like what are these funds called, what are they "supposedly" used for, how much money is hidden and how they are hiding the money from the public. I guess unfortunately for the Klein govt. they have been able to hide it from the general public, yet they are unable to hide it from your prying eyes.

Of course all governments use creative accounting, just like businesses, just like individuals, nope not a surprising revelation there.

Well, garsh, you mean some of them politicians might be a bit shady? Golly!

I may be a simple country boy but I'm not an idiot. I know damn well that power corrupts and that even the best intentioned or high-minded individuals can be won over by greed. But I like to have a little faith, especially in politicians who actually demand we expect more from the government than we tend to get. In my mind, that means people who don't make greed and self-interest the cornerstone of their personla philosophy.

So tell me is there anything that you disagree with personally about Jack Layton or the NDP party or do you just grin and nod at all that he says and all that the NDP stands for. I think we both agree that no one is perfect especially in politics, so it would be refreshing to hear you be critical of one of your own for once.

I know I have no problems diagreeing with ideas or policies that the government I voted for promotes.

[Alliance Fanatic]

Yeah its hard to be a left winger in a politically correct world . You know, because the left has lost on every single issue that has come about, if you discount immigration, abortion, gay rights, envriomentalism. Oh and not to mention how Human Rights Commissions are always going after them just because of their religous beliefs. Oh yeah is'nt the human rights commission left wing, and forces people to print out gay rights panthlets, even if their beliefs are against the homosexual lifestyle.

[BigGunner]

Gordon Campbell's "balanced" budget is relying on $1.5 billion in tax increases, $400 million in federal equilization payments, massive increases in crown corporation revenue and billion of dollars in cuts to provincial cuts. Hardly the tax-cuts-will-pay-for-themselves mantra that they were elected upon.

It seems that its easier to be a conservative these days by blaming others for their own faults, and campaigning on bogus agendas that have been a proven failure in a past age.

Campbell's Liberals pledged a modern version of Trickle-Down economics that performed just as terribly in America and UK in the 1980's...but it was nice to be bribed with ones own money. The only saving grace for the Americans was the massive deficit spending of Reagan that cost them dearly...it was finally Bill Clinton that managed to balance their books. Funny though, the massive (and worse) deficit spending of conservative Geroge Bush doesn't seem to be helping his economy.

The reality of that is the taxes actually increased for 75% of BC (the lower 75% of the income scale) while those with extreme wealth are still laughing all the way to the bank.

For the 1st time since possibly before 1991, Ipsos-Reid has reported that the NDP now has a lead in ALL income brackets of BC's citizens - including the above $60k per year range...they also report that the NDP has a lead in ALL education levels too.

The people are waking up and realising the lies and hate told by conservatives are useless and harm the economy.

If Harper wants to run on a platform of massive tax cuts, GREAT!!! That message will be more than welcomed here in BC where the agenda has yet again been proven a miserable failure.

[BigGunner]

Yeah its hard to be a left winger in a politically correct world . You know, because the left has lost on every single issue that has come about, if you discount immigration, abortion, gay rights, envriomentalism. Oh and not to mention how Human Rights Commissions are always going after them just because of their religous beliefs. Oh yeah is'nt the human rights commission left wing, and forces people to print out gay rights panthlets, even if their beliefs are against the homosexual lifestyle.

Please name any person that has been forced to print out gay rights literature..

[maplesyrup]

Probably Canada's biggest myth is that the right wing is fiscally prudent.

BY far the largest deficits that Canada ever had were brought in under Tory regimes - like Harper's recently acquired buddy, Brian Mulroney. Remember him folks. More importantly remember his deficits, what were they 42 billion dollars per year, or something like that.

[Sully]

Gordon Campbell's "balanced" budget is relying on $1.5 billion in tax increases, $400 million in federal equilization payments, massive increases in crown corporation revenue and billion of dollars in cuts to provincial cuts. Hardly the tax-cuts-will-pay-for-themselves mantra that they were elected upon.

It seems that its easier to be a conservative these days by blaming others for their own faults, and campaigning on bogus agendas that have been a proven failure in a past age.

Hey I voted for the Liberals and yes they have not done always the best thing got no problem admitting that.

Hey big gunner provide examples of the increased taxes, what they are and what they amount too.

Of course equaliztion payments are needed now, we are a "have not province" now thanks in "large part" (others have contributed to it too) to the NDP.

What increases in revenues in what crown corporations, examples, please!!!

billion of dollars in cuts to provincial cuts???? not following you on this one, but would this not amount to a cutting of cuts which result in less cuts.

And yes the tax cuts have not paid for themselves, but then again I never expected them too, within their adminstration.

If Harper wants to run on a platform of massive tax cuts, GREAT!!! That message will be more than welcomed here in BC where the agenda has yet again been proven a miserable failure.

There is potential for the tax cuts to have an effect on the federal level, we do not have a clue how much money has been wasted and personally I would rather waste my money myself. If the money has been wasted is in the billions (highly probable), that money is better staying with the people than going to the govt. I'd say thats a good thing.

Well I think the reason that the NDP will never form the government federally is because everyone knows already that they lie like all parties, but are much more advanced at being incompentent.

[BigGunner]

BC's so-called "have not" status is debatable, since the formula is a floating variable. While liberal apologists claim this happened under the NDP, the NDP never recieved one federal welfare cheque from Ottawa. This unique stigma goes to the BC Liberals.

For cuts, the Liberals cut $803 million from 14 ministries this year alone.

Since most of the right-wing think tanks refer to service fee increases as a tax increase, it is fair to include MSP premium increases, school tax increases, sales tax increases, license fee increases, which have added to at least over $1.5 billion..

All the while that revenue from personal and corporate taxes are nearly $1.5 billion less today than before the liberals 'dramatic tax cut' that was supposed to pay for itself.

They have managed to lay off thousands of public sector workers including almost 10,000 healthcare workers. "Balanced" indeed.

PS - "billion of dollars in cuts to provincial cuts" was a reference to the cuts to ministries.

[Bro]

Some people have warped memories,or none at all.

[BigGunner]

Some people have warped memories,or none at all.

Stats taken from the budget documents themselves...unless you find those warped too.

[Bro]

Probably Canada's biggest myth is that the right wing is fiscally prudent.

I was refering to maplesyrup's comment,not your budget stats.

[Alliance Fanatic]

Did'nt Trudeau bring the debt up to 250 billion. I guess the left does not like to admit that their hero was responsible for Canada's huge debt burden.

[August1991]

I don't mean to confuse matters but a little bit of reality might help here.

At least since Ronald Reagan, politicians have learned that it is possible to define a government deficit almost anyway you want. Here in Quebec, the PQ claimed to have a surplus by the simple tactic of redefining "government expenditure" and "government revenue". (One way is to place many borrowing into government agencies and then claim these agencies are not part of government.)

Does BC Hydro borrow? Manitoba Hydro is a big borrower.

But it gets worse. Most modern economists would argue that it makes no difference whether the government borrows or raises taxes.

Sound strange? Read this:

Cut taxes or pay debt?

(Needless to say, PM PM would not want most Canadians to understand this.)

General conclusion? The issue should not be whether the government has a deficit or balanced budget. The sole issue should be the size of government purchases.

The problem here is that these too can be shunted off to various agencies. And what about promises of future purchases?

Another approach would be to look at the number of government employees - but politicians have figured that one out too. They don't count contract employees.

I'm not aware of a simple way to know whether a politician has made government larger or smaller.

But it is absolutely wrong to claim that balancing the government books is evidence of fiscal prudence. Fiscal prudence means having government do the things it should do - no more, no less.

A better measure of fiscal prudence is finding some government purchase or service and saying, the government should not be doing that. In my boo, the adscam thingy is terrible not because there was theft but because PM PM approved $250 million for needless government purchases.

So, Layton is right to say we don't need to pay down the debt. But IMV, he's wrong to say that the government should create all manner of agencies to enforce Kyoto.

I ain't votin' for Layton.

[BigGunner]

I don't mean to confuse matters but a little bit of reality might help here.

At least since Ronald Reagan, politicians have learned that it is possible to define a government deficit almost anyway you want.  Here in Quebec, the PQ claimed to have a surplus by the simple tactic of redefining "government expenditure" and "government revenue".  (One way is to place many borrowing into government agencies and then claim these agencies are not part of government.)

Does BC Hydro borrow?  Manitoba Hydro is a big borrower.

But it gets worse.  Most modern economists would argue that it makes no difference whether the government borrows or raises taxes.

Sound strange?  Read this:

Cut taxes or pay debt?

(Needless to say, PM PM would not want most Canadians to understand this.)

The issue should not be whether the government has a deficit or balanced budget.  The sole issue should be the size of government purchases.

The problem here is that these too can be shunted off to various agencies.  And what about promises of future purchases?

Another approach would be to look at the number of government employees - but politicians have figured that one out too.  They don't count contract employees.

I'm not aware of a simple way to know whether a politician has made government larger or smaller.

But it is absolutely wrong to claim that balancing the government books is evidence of fiscal prudence.  Fiscal prudence means having government do the things it should do - no more, no less.  A better measure of fiscal prudence is finding some government purchase or service and saying, the government should not be doing that.  In my boo, the adscam thingy is terrible not because there was theft but because PM PM approved $250 million for needless government purchases.

So, Layton is right to say we don't need to pay down the debt.  But IMV, he's wrong to say that the government should create all manner of agencies to enforce Kyoto.

I ain't votin' for Layton.

A fairly reasoned response but I do not agree with it..

Tax cuts and debt reduction are not bad words for the left either. Done irresponsibly, they often backfire and create more problems than they solve.

Massive tax cuts right away

- Will create a huge gap in public accounts, which has to be made up quickly by spending cuts, borrowing, and other tax increases.

- Campbell did this and promptly created the two largest deficits in BC's history.

- Reagan did this and created the highest deficits in USA history.

- Bush did this and broke Reagans record.

Phased in tax cuts

- Are more affordable since a growing economy can absorb the cuts to provincial revenue. BC NDP Premier Glen Clark did this and actually realised a revenue increase, of which was identified in BC Liberal election platform documents in their justification for an even more dramatic tax cut.

- Almost nothing has to be cut to afford this, except by attrition.

- Jack Layton talks about this when he speaks of increasing exemtions for certain essential usage products from the GST. Its a small decrease, but affordable.

Debt payments

Every government, every party in government has an obligation to pay down its debt. Increasing it will take more money away from essential areas like healthcare and education...such as the federal liberals have done.

Reading that article though makes me wonder a few things about the scale of tax breaks that the conservatives talk about.

If they offer 25% across the board but take most of it back through offloading to the provinces and local governments, who really wins and keeps most of their tax cut? In BC, the BC Liberals did a 25% cut but 75% of British Columbians are today paying more in taxes and user fees than beforehand.

Pay some debt off, balance the budget responsibly, THEN offer an affordable tax cut that everyone can enjoy.

[August1991]

Every government, every party in government has an obligation to pay down its debt. Increasing it will take more money away from essential areas like healthcare and education...such as the federal liberals have done.

Why should a government have an "obligation" to pay down debt? To pay down debt, the government must raise taxes higher than they otherwise would be. I have friends who borrow at 10% to payt tax bills when the government can borrow at 3%. Which is better?

The litmus test of fiscal prudence is not whether there is a budget surplus or deficit. That's a myth PM PM would love you to believe but American economists know to be false.

The test of wise government is what resources the government takes from a country and what resources it manages.

The government should not be buying ads or buying flags. It should not be setting up complex bureaucracies to decide whether someone is advertising during an election campaign.

On the other hand, something lost in this Ontario budget is the fact that elementary school classes might be smaller. Now, that's a legitimate debate IMV about how a government should use a country's resourses. Whaddya think?