Conservative Inroads With Immigrants

[M.Dancer]

This article from the Globe shows the efforts that the Torys are making towards the GTA sizable Sikh Canadian community. The gist of it is they have long been staunch Liberal supporters but as of lately there has been a growing feeling that they have been taken for granted and that their thoughts and voices are beiong heard.

“The only reason we were Liberal in the first place is because of immigration. Socially, we are conservative,” he said.

Now that many have been here since the 60s, their loyalty to the Liberals is weakening and 1st generation Sikhs are questioning that affiliation.

Mr. Singh said the Liberal Party must come to terms with a fundamental demographic shift. Once, there were power brokers in immigrant communities who could claim to control thousands of votes, but not any more, he said. Around the dinner table, Canadian-born children are questioning their parents' allegiance to the Liberal Party, he added.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/nation...article1336750/

[eyeball]

Socially, we are conservative.

This is the only argument I've heard for limiting immigration that really makes sense. Immigration constitutes a threat to traditional Canadian values.

Edited October 28, 2009 by eyeball

[M.Dancer]

This is the only argument I've heard for limiting immigration that really makes sense. Immigration constitutes a threat to traditional Canadian values.

So traditionally you think Canada has been socially liberal?

Only if you ignore 1777-1962

[eyeball]

So traditionally you think Canada has been socially liberal?

Only if you ignore 1777-1962

Like you I was probably in kindergarten in 1962 so I barely recall although I certainly remember getting strapped by the principle.

Thankfully since 1962 its clearly evolved in a socially liberal direction, but since conservatives just can't resist the urge to take society backwards whenever they get the chance...we'll soon see calls from Jason Kenny to increase immigration and in a few years I won't be at all surprised to find you in here cheering Conservative legislation that mandates public floggings for kindergartners.

[M.Dancer]

Like you I was probably in kindergarten in 1962 so I barely recall although I certainly remember getting strapped by the principle.

Thankfully since 1962 its clearly evolved in a socially liberal direction, but since conservatives just can't resist the urge to take society backwards whenever they get the chance...we'll soon see calls from Jason Kenny to increase immigration and in a few years I won't be at all surprised to find you in here cheering Conservative legislation that mandates public floggings for kindergartners.

You agree then that "traditional Canadian values" do not necessarily incorporate social liberalism and your throw away comment could be thrown away.

[lictor616]

This article from the Globe shows the efforts that the Torys are making towards the GTA sizable Sikh Canadian community. The gist of it is they have long been staunch Liberal supporters but as of lately there has been a growing feeling that they have been taken for granted and that their thoughts and voices are beiong heard.

Now that many have been here since the 60s, their loyalty to the Liberals is weakening and 1st generation Sikhs are questioning that affiliation.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/nation...article1336750/

yes sikhs are very representative of traditional canadian conservatism... what with their daggers, turbans and crack-pot religious fanaticism...

true red blooded torries all....

lol is there anything you cannot make people believe?

Edited October 28, 2009 by lictor616

[DrGreenthumb]

yes sikhs are very representative of traditional canadian conservatism... what with their daggers, turbans and crack-pot religious fanaticism...

true red blooded torries all....

lol is there anything you cannot make people believe?

replace daggers with guns turbans with baseball caps, and it's actually pretty bang on. They do share the crack-pot religious fanaticism anyway, even if they call their Gods by different names.

[fellowtraveller]

First we take Manhattan

Then we take Berlin

[M.Dancer]

First we take Manhattan

Then we take Berlin

I lobe your body and spirit and ...your clothes

[g_bambino]

Immigration constitutes a threat to traditional Canadian values.

There are those magic words. What exactly they mean remains anyone's guess, of course.

[eyeball]

Not as magic as socially, we are conservative. What they mean is painfully obvious. I'm usually quite supportive of immigration. I guess the road to hell as they say really is paved with good intentions.

[eyeball]

You agree then that "traditional Canadian values" do not necessarily incorporate social liberalism and your throw away comment could be thrown away.

Its obvious they incorporate both liberal and conservative values, what's not clear is if they can co-exist peacefully. Would it be too much to ask that your kind keep to yourselves and try to keep your beloved state from constantly trying to force its values on mine?

Thanks in advance.

[g_bambino]

Not as magic as socially, we are conservative.

No need for straw-men, thanks. The question was: what exactly was meant by "traditional Canadian values"? It's a jingoism that's bandied about often by those who want to appear as though they're the pro-Canadian good guys; but, without definition, it tends to be just a euphamism for "my values".

[Argus]

This is the only argument I've heard for limiting immigration that really makes sense. Immigration constitutes a threat to traditional Canadian values.

It's the argument I've been making for years now.

[Argus]

No need for straw-men, thanks. The question was: what exactly was meant by "traditional Canadian values"? It's a jingoism that's bandied about often by those who want to appear as though they're the pro-Canadian good guys; but, without definition, it tends to be just a euphamism for "my values".

I AM conservative, but despite what most here might think, I'm really not all THAT socially conservative on most issues. That doesn't mean I'm liberal, necessarily, though on certain issues I would definitely be classed as one.

I'm not certain that the Sikhs or Muslims or Hindus etc. can be classed as "traditional conservative" in the sense of social values because unless you go back about a hundred years their social values are considerably harsher than that of "traditonal" Canadian conservatives.

What's today's "traditional conservative" think about gays? Probably finds them distasteful and thinks they should hide themselves away somewhere and stop flaunting themselves about.

I would think that among the newcomers to Canada who are religious that would probably be the more moderate of opinions. Remember that in many of these cultures an openly gay man would be killed or imprissoned.

Abortion? The "traditional conservative" might want it severely curtailed/restricted to certain situations, or banned altogether. I think the newcomers would agree, but many would go further in their punishment of both he who performs such a service and she who seeks it.

Womens rights. I don't really think there are many traditional conservatives who want to do much about womens rights (excluding abortion) other than, perhaps, make it easier for women to stay at home with the family as they believe they ought to. I think some of the newer cultures have considerably harsher beliefs regarding how women ought to act, how they ought to dress, the jobs they should be permitted to do, whether they can even mix with men in places like swimming pools and beaches, etc. There are some who would impliment punishments for women who act "immorally" and that includes having sex - any kind of sex - outside marriage.

Another aspect of the newcomers which bothers me is a decided lack of commitment to freedom of speech when it offends their cultural or religious sensibilities.

Taken in smaller numbers their cultural prejudices will fade into the Canadian background, and their children will be much more inclined to adopt "Canadian" values. But with the numbers we have in place and still coming over many of them are basically living their lives within their own sub-culture, including their children, which prevents them from adopting our values and cultural beliefs.

[Michael Hardner]

Argus,

Taken in smaller numbers their cultural prejudices will fade into the Canadian background, and their children will be much more inclined to adopt "Canadian" values. But with the numbers we have in place and still coming over many of them are basically living their lives within their own sub-culture, including their children, which prevents them from adopting our values and cultural beliefs.

You're arguing that there is some optimal number, and that it's lower than our current number. But why ? Do you observe problems now ? What's the evidence other than anecdotal ? Where do you live ?

I ask all these questions in good faith.

[Argus]

Argus,

You're arguing that there is some optimal number, and that it's lower than our current number. But why ? Do you observe problems now ? What's the evidence other than anecdotal ? Where do you live ?

I ask all these questions in good faith.

What other evidence would you have BUT anecdotal? Consider, for a moment, the web. You will find all sorts of official government pages lauding immigration. You'll find all sorts of pages from the immigration industry discussing the benefits of immigration, as well. But there are NO organized groups which are not already in favour of immigration which are going to do "studies" of any kind, or provide information in a neutral fashion about the possible drawbacks of immigration. The best you can find are news articles and the occasional economic paper from the Faser Institute. There is only one web site I know of which collects and disseminates information critical of immigration in Canada, and of course, it's kind of an amateur site and would be dismissed as "anti-immigration" anyway.

That leaves us going by what we see and hear around us,.. and the fact that people born and raised in this country still feel so little kinship with us that they're willing to kill us on behalf of co-religionists thousands of miles away isn't encouraging.

Edited October 29, 2009 by Argus

[fellowtraveller]

the fact that people born and raised in this country still feel so little kinship with us that they're willing to kill us on behalf of co-religionists thousands of miles away isn't encouraging.

How is that specific or relevant to 'this country'? They would feel that way no matter where they lived. It has nothing to do with their emigration here. If they are guilty of crimes, or express their intent to kill when they get here, entry should be denied. But you cannot pre-convict anybody for thoughtcrimes.

I don't require a sense of kinship from immigrants.

All that is required of immigrants is that they work, pay taxes and obey our laws. Beyond that, they should be free to do as they please - the same freedom I enjoy. .The kinship is inevitable with future generations, unless we follow the French example of ghettoization and official discrimination.

[eyeball]

Taken in smaller numbers their cultural prejudices will fade into the Canadian background, and their children will be much more inclined to adopt "Canadian" values.

That's where I think you might be wrong, I think what might happen is that these prejudices, some of which still linger within the set of values that are peculier to Canada's social conservatism, will find new life being breathed into them. I think the idea that the state for example should crack down and get tough on crime will be an easy sell to people who are from countries where police and state power is normally more excessive than it needs to be. Religiosity in general could also get a boost, especially where religious and state morality interesct.

But with the numbers we have in place and still coming over many of them are basically living their lives within their own sub-culture, including their children, which prevents them from adopting our values and cultural beliefs.

Something I value as a tradition in Canada is our evolution towards becoming a more rational and humane society something that just about all fundamentalists take a dim view towards. I think an influx of social conservative values could blunt if not halt this evolution outright and I think this is a value that social conservatives of all stripes could share and rally around.

[g_bambino]

Something I value as a tradition in Canada is our evolution towards becoming a more rational and humane society something that just about all fundamentalists take a dim view towards. I think an influx of social conservative values could blunt if not halt this evolution outright and I think this is a value that social conservatives of all stripes could share and rally around.

This seems to assume that fundamentalists exist only on the conservative side of the spectrum, while the opposite side is inhabited only by rational and humane beings.

I'm not siding completely with conservatism; I'm merely pointing out a double standard.

[wyly]

all immigrants should all visit this site to see what conservatives really think of them...

[fellowtraveller]

all immigrants should all visit this site to see what conservatives really think of them...

In your political scale, I'm a conservative and think highly of immigrants and the need for continuing immigration to this country.

Does that make me evil?

[eyeball]

This seems to assume that fundamentalists exist only on the conservative side of the spectrum, while the opposite side is inhabited only by rational and humane beings.

I'm not siding completely with conservatism; I'm merely pointing out a double standard.

Its really the social conservatism that I think is the main issue here and I did say all fundamentalists...that said if there are any examples of liberal fundamentalists that are also socially conservative I'd like to see them. It seems like a real contradiction in the religous sense.

[wyly]

In your political scale, I'm a conservative and think highly of immigrants and the need for continuing immigration to this country.

Does that make me evil?

no, it was a generalization...the conservative ranks is where you'll find these people hiding, which is why I liked it when the reform party was around, we knew where they were, and PC party was a safer option...

[fellowtraveller]

no, it was a generalization...the conservative ranks is where you'll find these people hiding, which is why I liked it when the reform party was around, we knew where they were, and PC party was a safer option...

Here is another generaliztion: you'll find that generalization is a refuge of the bigoted and stupid.

Racism transcends party lines.