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Tories to crack down on parole for non-violent offenders


jdobbin

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Think a secret poll is just that. Secret. Unless you are thinking the police will tap in to find out how the vote went and punish cops accordingly.

The poll question that should be asked is "Do you trust the information given by the gun registry?"

If 100% of the respondents say "no" then it's useless. If anyone says "yes" then it has been endangering the lives of officers.

All I hear is the right wing shouting to end the program.

This has nothing to do with right wing, centre or left wing. Common sense isn't exclusive to the right wing.

I didn't support it to start with

Why? Because you could figure out that since criminals hadn't registered their handguns in 70 years that it would be unlikely they'd register their long guns?

but I'll be darned if I don't find out if it is indeed useful to the police.

It's like spending $25 million a year studying whether or not pigs could fly if they had wings. Criminals don't register their guns. Pigs don't have wings. Done.

I just don't believe police chiefs are afraid for their job and supporting the program to keep those jobs.

There are police associations and officers that have gone on record condemning the registry. That should speak volumes. Ask the chiefs' association if they train their officers to trust the registry?

The police access the registry all the time.

It's accessed automatically.

The Tories are the ones trying to dismantle the program or make it useless.

If you want to keep the registry, figure out a plan to maintain it based upon its annual revenues. Really all you have to do is go to those involved and say "if you can't do it for this much, we will be ending the registry." I'm sure those involved in the milking will find a way.

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If you want to keep the registry, figure out a plan to maintain it based upon its annual revenues. Really all you have to do is go to those involved and say "if you can't do it for this much, we will be ending the registry." I'm sure those involved in the milking will find a way.

Yes just like the war on drugs(plants).

They could start by seizing the assets of anyone caught with an unregistered firearm. Take their homes and their cars and any other property they own and sell it, keeping the money to use to pay for the gun registry. We have already seen that the right wing supports this approach to law enforcement in other areas. They should have no problem with applying these methods to enforceing the gun registry.

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The law is the law is the law after all.

We can't afford to have anyone, and especially the right wingers, scoffing at that. I mean if right-wingers can't be expected to comply with the law who can?

Maybe some mandaTORY minimums for possessing an unregistered firearm would DETER criminals from owning them? The Conservatives are always claiming that all we need to do to make criminals comply with the laws is to increase the sentencing and punishment so why don't they follow their own logic, and enact some strict mandaTORY sentences for the criminal act of owning a gun without registering it? Then obviously EVERYONE would register their guns and cops could be sure that the registry would be absolutely accurate when checking it before going on an alcohol fueled domestic violence call?

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The law is the law is the law after all.

We can't afford to have anyone, and especially the right wingers, scoffing at that. I mean if right-wingers can't be expected to comply with the law who can?

Geez, can't see the forest for all the straw men! You seem to define a "right winger" as someone who disagrees with you on certain issues. Then you feel free to predict how they will feel about any other issue that comes up.

We could do the same thing about "left wingers" but it would get a bit thin after a while, since all the examples would tend to revolve around group hugs and watching the "Care Bears" as research for international diplomacy conferences...

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The poll question that should be asked is "Do you trust the information given by the gun registry?"

If 100% of the respondents say "no" then it's useless. If anyone says "yes" then it has been endangering the lives of officers.

I'm sure the right wing would love to ask leading questions just as they did with the Wheat Board.

This has nothing to do with right wing, centre or left wing. Common sense isn't exclusive to the right wing.

The try to do it right rather drawing connclusions before asking a series of questions.

Why? Because you could figure out that since criminals hadn't registered their handguns in 70 years that it would be unlikely they'd register their long guns?

Because I believed there was a better way than a central registry.

It's like spending $25 million a year studying whether or not pigs could fly if they had wings. Criminals don't register their guns. Pigs don't have wings. Done.

Think I'd like to actually hear police views on the issue.

There are police associations and officers that have gone on record condemning the registry. That should speak volumes. Ask the chiefs' association if they train their officers to trust the registry?

And yet we see more police saying the support the registry. That should speak volumes too.

It's accessed automatically.

Because it is a tool for the police to do their job.

If you want to keep the registry, figure out a plan to maintain it based upon its annual revenues. Really all you have to do is go to those involved and say "if you can't do it for this much, we will be ending the registry." I'm sure those involved in the milking will find a way.

That's not what the Tories are doing. They are just trying to kill the program slowly.

In the end, if they don't get a majority, the program will be back in force. It would be better if they tried to find out how and why it is used and if there is a better way. I don't think they will do that.

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The perception that white-collar criminals get off with a slap on the wrist, coupled with some large-scale rip-offs has created a public desire for this.

-k

They do get off with a slap on the wrist, and so do most violent offenders in Canada. There's no deterrent to our justice system when the offenders are back on the streets...the whole system is rediculous. Law abiding people cannot protect themselves anymore and the criminals are being let out on the streets. Drug dealers are not "non violent criminals" they are some of the most violent!!! What's worse is that the interpretation of the laws in this country make it inhumane to lock up an offender, yet incriminate average people for owning a gun or for defending themselves. It's high time for an overhaul!

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And what does he do with the information he reads there?

Let's see. It says there is a rifle somewhwere in the house. Which may or may not be true (the registry is highly innacurate). Okay, so what? According to procedure, police officers going to such addresses are supposed to assume there could be a firearm there somewhere anyway. So how does this help in any way? How does it change what he's supposed to be doing?

You arrive at the house and find two people in the kitchen yelling at each other. Do you then hold the man at gunpoint until you can go out to the garage or down to the basement to get the rifle?

Then what? Then he pulls out his unregistered hand gun and blows your face off?

Haha, exactly! The registry leads to faulty assumptions...and those assumptions cost more lives than legally owned guns. My father used to tell me "Assume makes an ass out of u and me".

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They do get off with a slap on the wrist, and so do most violent offenders in Canada. There's no deterrent to our justice system when the offenders are back on the streets...the whole system is rediculous. Law abiding people cannot protect themselves anymore and the criminals are being let out on the streets. Drug dealers are not "non violent criminals" they are some of the most violent!!! What's worse is that the interpretation of the laws in this country make it inhumane to lock up an offender, yet incriminate average people for owning a gun or for defending themselves. It's high time for an overhaul!

Well I guess we should enact long mandatory minimum sentences so that criminals won't own unregistered guns. The gun registry does not "criminalize" anybody. If you decide to flaunt the law and possess unregistered firearms then you make yourself a criminal. Oh how I love to throw this ridiculous argument back in the faces of Conservatives. Surely if you think long mandatory minimums are a deterent to drug(plant) possession "crimes" then you must also fully believe that strong mandatory minimums coupled with strong asset forfeiture laws will put an end to illegally owning unregistered firearms?

I notice no comments on the idea from the usual Conservative peanut gallery. No comment on the fact that domestic murders and suicides have gone down since the registry was enacted?

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Well I guess we should enact long mandatory minimum sentences so that criminals won't own unregistered guns. The gun registry does not "criminalize" anybody. If you decide to flaunt the law and possess unregistered firearms then you make yourself a criminal. Oh how I love to throw this ridiculous argument back in the faces of Conservatives. Surely if you think long mandatory minimums are a deterent to drug(plant) possession "crimes" then you must also fully believe that strong mandatory minimums coupled with strong asset forfeiture laws will put an end to illegally owning unregistered firearms?

I notice no comments on the idea from the usual Conservative peanut gallery. No comment on the fact that domestic murders and suicides have gone down since the registry was enacted?

How do you know that ALL Conservatives are against legalization? Have you spoken to all of them?

That's like saying only potheads vote NDP! Obviously, this can't be true. Pot results in pleasant dreams. An NDP government is often a nightmare.

You tend to label and generalize people worse than a Southern cracker...

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No comment on the fact that domestic murders and suicides have gone down since the registry was enacted?

I couldn't find a previous post on this. Please provide a citation. As far as domestic murders go, if someone shoots their spouse with a rifle they aren't really that concerned about getting away with it. Do you think the registry really has an effect on this? Same with suicides. I doubt someone is going to stop because the thought "Oh no, this gun is registered, they'll know I did it" occurs to them. The note might give that away.

Found this for you:

The best measures to use in evaluating the gun registry are murder and suicide rates. The statistics are unequivocal: the gun registry has not had a meaningful impact on either. The homicide rate had fallen impressively before 2001 but has remained relatively stable since.
http://www2.canada.com/burnabynow/news/opi...2c-cf449ffbe9df Edited by noahbody
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How do you know that ALL Conservatives are against legalization? Have you spoken to all of them?

Whether they're against it is moot if they go ahead and vote for them anyway don't you think? I don't think its unreasonable to vote for a party you don't entirely agree with but not if the issue you disagree with could result in people's civil liberties being suspended. I think it says something pretty loathsome about people who would put things like their own wallets or electoral fortunes ahead of someone else's liberties.

What does it say about a Liberal party that's proposed to decriminalize pot one day only to go ahead and vote for something like C-15? It says the same about any conservative that talks about getting the state off people's backs but goes ahead and votes for a party that's determined to climb all over them.

Is the lack of principles from voters being reflected in the politicians they vote for or is it the other way around and voters are no better that the people they elect?

It just seems to me that C-15 is one of those places where the rubber really hits the road in terms of the ability of the state to intrude into people's lives. People should be more careful about what they vote for, especially if doing so goes against their own stated principles.

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I'm sure the right wing would love to ask leading questions just as they did with the Wheat Board.

Actually that was a concern voiced by a police officer in Saskatchewan who said:

I find that I have to deprogram every cadet that I train when it comes to CFRO checks and their reliability in regards to officer safety.
http://www.garrybreitkreuz.com/publications/policequotes.htm
Think I'd like to actually hear police views on the issue.

Did that change your view or should we dismiss this concern as "right wing"?

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Actually that was a concern voiced by a police officer in Saskatchewan who said:

This still doesn't mean the registry is useful as a tool.

Running a licence number doesn't mean the old lady it belong to is actually driving the car. It doesn't mean that driver's licences are useless.

Did that change your view or should we dismiss this concern as "right wing"?

I can come back with police chiefs saying the registry is useful to them. Does that mean they are left wing?

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Jdobbin, I truly hope that your master Ignatieff runs the next election on wantingto let convicted criminals out of prison sooner and quicker in order to save a few dollars. Yes money trumps public safety in your eyes. Seriously he'd be handing Harper his majority if he did that. Please email him and tell him to make that a Liberal party plank. "Early release for all convicted felons" and "Non earned Parole for all" and let's not forget "Easy access to bail across Canada for violent offenders!".

This will be a wonderful win fall for the Tories, it would be like Moses parting the Red Sea. It would be perfect. Please push Ignatieff and your local MP's to run on this, it will be wonderful.

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Jdobbin, I truly hope that your master Ignatieff runs the next election on wantingto let convicted criminals out of prison sooner and quicker in order to save a few dollars. Yes money trumps public safety in your eyes. Seriously he'd be handing Harper his majority if he did that. Please email him and tell him to make that a Liberal party plank. "Early release for all convicted felons" and "Non earned Parole for all" and let's not forget "Easy access to bail across Canada for violent offenders!".

I really hope you master runs on a plan of a return to the death penalty and imprisoning children in this election.

This will be a wonderful win fall for the Tories, it would be like Moses parting the Red Sea. It would be perfect. Please push Ignatieff and your local MP's to run on this, it will be wonderful.

Please push your party to fight an election on a return of the death penalty and criminalizing abortion. It would be perfect.

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As far as domestic murders go, if someone shoots their spouse with a rifle they aren't really that concerned about getting away with it. Do you think the registry really has an effect on this? Same with suicides. I doubt someone is going to stop because the thought "Oh no, this gun is registered, they'll know I did it" occurs to them. The note might give that away.

The point is that many people just got rid of old guns they had laying around instead of registering them. There was a drop in domestic murder involving guns after the registry and also a reduction in accidental shootings and gun suicides. There are less guns around so there is less people getting killed by them in the heat of the moment.

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There was a drop in domestic murder involving guns after the registry and also a reduction in accidental shootings and gun suicides.

That's not true. The sharp drop in domestic gun related homicides occurred in the early 90s before the gun registry became law (1995). Since then, there has been no significant change.

http://docs.google.com/gview?a=v&q=cac...fQlDfvafdyIchPw

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The point is that many people just got rid of old guns they had laying around instead of registering them. There was a drop in domestic murder involving guns after the registry and also a reduction in accidental shootings and gun suicides. There are less guns around so there is less people getting killed by them in the heat of the moment.

If that's the value that the registry brought, then we could have offered $200 for every old gun returned. The cost of getting rid of one million guns would have been $200 million - about one-fifth the cost of the registry.

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None of you Consertvative registry haters have adressed the main point of my post, probably because you simply don't want to. Answering might blow a huge hole in the conservative "justice" reform plan. Will putting in strong mandaTORY minimum sentences for owning an unregistered firearm deter criminals from owning unregistered guns or not? How about adding some strong asset forfeiture laws for anyone caught owning an unregstered gun? Will these measures DETER criminals from owning unregistered weapons? Or do mandaTORY minimums fail to act as a deterrant?

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None of you Consertvative registry haters have adressed the main point of my post, probably because you simply don't want to. Answering might blow a huge hole in the conservative "justice" reform plan. Will putting in strong mandaTORY minimum sentences for owning an unregistered firearm deter criminals from owning unregistered guns or not? How about adding some strong asset forfeiture laws for anyone caught owning an unregstered gun? Will these measures DETER criminals from owning unregistered weapons? Or do mandaTORY minimums fail to act as a deterrant?

Since "Conservatives" (but also many others) don't believe in the long gun registry......they won't be registered anyway.....so it's a moot point with regards to long guns. With regards to being caught with a hand gun and having no license and permit.....that depends on the circumstances. Being caught with one as the result of criminal activity should have serious consequences - 5 years in prison with no parole at all - and no concurrent sentences or plea bargaining. If it doesn't deter, it will at least keep a violent criminal in jail and protect the public from further gun crimes from the individual. I'm really not sure about just being in possession of one without being able to prove the intent of a crime.....there's a lot of variables so I don't want to be knee-jerk about it.

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None of you Consertvative registry haters have adressed the main point of my post,

I thought the main point of your post was that you've fried your brain. Honestly, how many times does it have to be pointed out that there are no mandatory minimums for smoking pot or even growing 200 plants for personal use? Please write this on your hand.

Will putting in strong mandaTORY minimum sentences for owning an unregistered firearm deter criminals from owning unregistered guns or not?

Like pot, intent is key. The main benefit of mandatory minimums related to crime IMO is that it is a solution to getting and keeping gang members off the street. It elevates the risks of that lifestyle.

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Since "Conservatives" (but also many others) don't believe in the long gun registry......they won't be registered anyway.....so it's a moot point with regards to long guns. With regards to being caught with a hand gun and having no license and permit.....that depends on the circumstances. Being caught with one as the result of criminal activity should have serious consequences - 5 years in prison with no parole at all - and no concurrent sentences or plea bargaining. If it doesn't deter, it will at least keep a violent criminal in jail and protect the public from further gun crimes from the individual. I'm really not sure about just being in possession of one without being able to prove the intent of a crime.....there's a lot of variables so I don't want to be knee-jerk about it.

If Conservatives decide to not register their guns, contrary to the law, then they are criminals. How is that any different than people deciding to smoke pot, contrary to the law?

I would argue that neither the gun owner that refuses to register the firearm, nor the unapologetic pot smokers are criminals because their actions do not victimize anyone. It is the law that is an ass. I don't believe in the gun registry either, I am against government interference in people's lives. I am only playing devil's advocate to try and make Conservatives understand how absurd their own positions are regarding the war on plants. What you advocate for us is a fate worse than having to register our vegetation.

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