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Tories to crack down on parole for non-violent offenders


jdobbin

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I don't care what it costs.

The lax parole laws in Canada have made sentences a farce for decades. What the story you quoted failed to mention is that parole is almost guaranteed after 1/3 of sentence is served for non-violent offenders, inc drug dealers and fraud artists. What is the point of having a judge decide on a proper sentence when the parole board will automatically release after 1/3rd is served?

That is on top of the fact that sentences for many of these people are a joke to begin with. Fraud is rising, esp through the use of various internet schemes. I read an article the other day that estimated the world-wide losess to phishing schemes alone were about $2 trillon

These are really two separate issues. White collar crime has for a long time flown under the radar. The US is tougher on it, at least as far as grand larceny goes, but still, there's a lot of smaller frauds like bouncing cheques that often elicits relatively small penalties.

The parole laws are pretty goofy. The "time served" nonsense was always a ludicrous farce, and a rather insulting one. I realize the underlying rationale has everything to do with jail space, despite all the cry that it's all about reintegrating convicts. Governments frequently try to put a humane spin on bean counting exercises.

I don't see why someone like, say Earl Jones, shouldn't get a sentence of eighty years or whatever. This guy destroyed peoples lives. He stole their life savings, violated their trust, and all to enrich himself and his family. Under current laws, we'd be lucky to see the guy spend seven years in prison. The one thing nobody can argue about with Madoff is that his dying in prison is a bad thing, so why the hell should we ever let Jones out of prison?

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So how is that different from what you assert? How far back would you like to go? You blame the Cons for accelerated parole

Actually, I was putting that it was Van Loan who is blaming the Liberals for the mess in his speech the other day until it was pointed out that PCs (which is he used to be) created the accelerated parole system.

Who the hell cares? Just fix the damn system and get on with it.

I like the deficit fixed too.

Let's hear the numbers rather than an emotional "git 'er dun" response that eventually has a system groaning under the weight of ever increasing costs.

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I don't care what it costs.

I find that hard to believe. If prisons become the largest line item of government operations, that means nothing to you?

The lax parole laws in Canada have made sentences a farce for decades. What the story you quoted failed to mention is that parole is almost guaranteed after 1/3 of sentence is served for non-violent offenders, inc drug dealers and fraud artists. What is the point of having a judge decide on a proper sentence when the parole board will automatically release after 1/3rd is served?

There may indeed be an issue of ensuring better parole guidelines. However, let's see the government numbers on costs. All we get is Van Loan blasting away and saying it is $60 million but many think this part of his plan is closer to $200 million. Add that to other justice changes and we are looking at numbers approaching $500 million or more.

Who knows? At the moment, there isn't a prison in Manitoba that is not over capacity by a fair stretch. I don't have the figures for other provinces but I can't imagine it is different elsewhere.

We might be looking at a massive prison building program as well.

Let's make sure that we balance security, justice and budget issues wisely.

That is on top of the fact that sentences for many of these people are a joke to begin with. Fraud is rising, esp through the use of various internet schemes. I read an article the other day that estimated the world-wide losess to phishing schemes alone were about $2 trillon

That's not a misprint. T- Trillion.

National Post

These are the international figures. How many of these crimes originate here and what are the costs?

And you know what will happen to these guys if they get caught? A slap on the wrist if they're reallyl, really unlucky. If they actually do go to jail, they're guaranteed to be out on day parole after 1/6th of the sentence is served.

Hard to charge them at all if they are from Nigeria.

In parts of this country the police will not even bother to investigate fraud. Why should they when the courts will, at worst, slap the criminals on the wrist? It's very hard to prove, takes a lot of time, effort and police work, and in the end the guy walks away laughing.

It's past time for us to start cracking down on these people before we wind up living in the equivilent of Nigeria.

I think you are speaking about a different issue when you are speaking about policing.

I agree that our commercial crime squads are too small and too regional.

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Actually, I was putting that it was Van Loan who is blaming the Liberals for the mess in his speech the other day until it was pointed out that PCs (which is he used to be) created the accelerated parole system.

That's as may be. The PCs were a Quebec-based party with no conservative beliefs or philosophies - which is why so many actually conservatives abandoned them and the Reform Party was born.

But your party has been in charge for 13 years and no one can honestly suggest they weren't 100% in favour of lax sentences, and ensured that everyone they appointed to the judiciary, parole boards and prison systems weren't on board with their wishy washy, bleeding heart beliefs.

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http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/stor...ub=TopStoriesV2

It looks like we are going to need a massive amount of prisons built. Wish that Van Loan would reveal the cost to his plan.

In Manitoba, the Free Press revealed that every prison in the province was way over capacity. A riot in Brandon in the last weeks was due in part to crowded conditions, according to officials themselves.

If the goal is to ensure that everyone convicted of a crime serves a long sentence, we will need a lot more prisons than we do now and will have to pay more annually than we do now.

The Tories always play the tough on crime stance but they downplay the tough on finances aspect of their policies.

And allowing more convicted felons onto the street serving only part of their sentences and freed under unearned parole is your answer?

I'm sorry but I don't think the public shares your view. I doubt very much the public would mind having more prisons built to keep our families safe.

So, jdobbin, in order to save money you'd release convicted felons into our streets. That is your position and it's sad.

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I find that hard to believe. If prisons become the largest line item of government operations, that means nothing to you?

That's not going to happen.

There may indeed be an issue of ensuring better parole guidelines. However, let's see the government numbers on costs

I don't care what it costs.

Look, there are "must haves" and "like to haves". This is something you guys have never figured out. To you whatever you want is a "must have". To me, there are things which need to be paid for regardless of cost, such as health care, policing, etc. As long as they're done with maximum efficiency, the cost is irrelevent.

We might be looking at a massive prison building program as well.

Fine. No problem. Go and build em.

These are the international figures. How many of these crimes originate here and what are the costs?

I think you are speaking about a different issue when you are speaking about policing.

I agree that our commercial crime squads are too small and too regional.

There are never enough cops in this country. But that's a different issue. The police are not going to put in the man-hours necessary to document and prove a major fraud when they know that the ocurts think it's no big deal and will not punish anyone. The police place a priority on crimes which is mostly aligned with the severeity of the sentences handed down by the courts. And you can steal a million bucks in this country pretty easily and not even go to jail for it.

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And allowing more convicted felons onto the street serving only part of their sentences and freed under unearned parole is your answer?

And your answer is more guards killed and mass escapes because the Harper government has underestimated how crowded the prisons are now?

Or have you forgotten the riot in Brandon prison in the last weeks? Or how about escape of murderers from Saskatchewan last year?

I'm sorry but I don't think the public shares your view. I doubt very much the public would mind having more prisons built to keep our families safe.

Then tell use the cost. Hundreds of millions? Billions?

And what tax will you increase to do it? What will you cut?

Don't be coy. You seem to have the answer.

So, jdobbin, in order to save money you'd release convicted felons into our streets. That is your position and it's sad.

I think I have asked your party to put up hard numbers. We have heard the figure of $60 million. Many would like to see a breakdown of how they arrive at the number.

It is sad that your party isn't transparent. Do we really want it to be a case of prisons versus pupils as we have seen in some jurisdictions?

Do you hate Canada that much that you want Grandma to freeze in the dark while you have a gleaming supermax prison built with her old age security?

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Seems to me to be the reverse. Because of the costing, because of trying to save money, people are dying.

Then let's see the comparison. I keep asking for the numbers and yet don't see any produced.

From some on the right, I hear they don't care what the costs are no matter how much. To me that is pretty scary since we have seen prisons become ever more crowded and prone to escapes. Overcrowding them further with non-violent offenders seems to be asking for more of the same.

The Tories seems to be arguing from pure emotion and we might find ourselves digging out as other places have from the crackdown. One need look no further than California.

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That's not going to happen.

Then let's see the costs. It is hard to believe that rising prison costs won't result in higher taxes or cutting of service elsewhere.

I don't care what it costs.

That much is apparent. It is why I don't see the deficit going down anytime soon because some people don't care what it costs for their issues to be funded.

Look, there are "must haves" and "like to haves". This is something you guys have never figured out. To you whatever you want is a "must have". To me, there are things which need to be paid for regardless of cost, such as health care, policing, etc. As long as they're done with maximum efficiency, the cost is irrelevent.

What you guys haven't figured out is that "must have" includes a balanced budget. The cost is never irrelevant.

Fine. No problem. Go and build em.

Fine. Tell us what the costs are.

There are never enough cops in this country. But that's a different issue. The police are not going to put in the man-hours necessary to document and prove a major fraud when they know that the ocurts think it's no big deal and will not punish anyone. The police place a priority on crimes which is mostly aligned with the severeity of the sentences handed down by the courts. And you can steal a million bucks in this country pretty easily and not even go to jail for it.

I don't believe police make decisions based on whether they will get a conviction or they wouldn't investigate a whole lost of crimes including murder.

I have not argued against better regulatory and policing of commercial crimes. I just think that we had better hear the costs of imprisoning people for ever longer sentences without figuring the costs and seeing if there are some better alternatives in many cases.

I don't want deficits from here to eternity. Canada needs to carefully look at policies that have long term costs and see what the best plan of action should be.

The right wing accuses the left of being emotional but in this case, the cry of "I don't care what the costs are!" is an emotional one.

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Then let's see the comparison. I keep asking for the numbers and yet don't see any produced.

From some on the right, I hear they don't care what the costs are no matter how much. To me that is pretty scary since we have seen prisons become ever more crowded and prone to escapes. Overcrowding them further with non-violent offenders seems to be asking for more of the same.

The Tories seems to be arguing from pure emotion and we might find ourselves digging out as other places have from the crackdown. One need look no further than California.

So you agree with letting these guys out after 1/6 of their sentence and pretty well automatically after 1/3?

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So you agree with letting these guys out after 1/6 of their sentence and pretty well automatically after 1/3?

So you agree with violent prisoners escaping from overcrowded prisons because you increased non-violent prisoner numbers?

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So you agree with violent prisoners escaping from overcrowded prisons because you increased non-violent prisoner numbers?

Simple solution; build more prisons, build them in the Arctic circle and let them escape because there won't be any guards or fences. Just toss the garbage outside and let the polar bears do the rest.

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Simple solution; build more prisons, build them in the Arctic circle and let them escape because there won't be any guards or fences. Just toss the garbage outside and let the polar bears do the rest.

Why not just kill people you think are guilty of something if death is what you want anyway?

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And your answer is more guards killed and mass escapes because the Harper government has underestimated how crowded the prisons are now?

Or have you forgotten the riot in Brandon prison in the last weeks? Or how about escape of murderers from Saskatchewan last year?

So your answer is to have these types of convicted felons roaming our streets? Hasworked out great for the Peg' so far eh? Gang capital of Canada, Native gangs I might add.

So instead of prison riots you'd rather let them go free and be on our streets, Those animals are exactly where they belong. You'll get little sympathy from Canadians. I doubt even Iggy is stupid enough to take your position on this.

Then tell use the cost. Hundreds of millions? Billions?

And what tax will you increase to do it? What will you cut?

Don't be coy. You seem to have the answer.

Public safety is paramount. Cost is irrelevant.

Do you care what Healthcare costs? Should we scale back healthcare services even more to save money? Of coarse not, cost isn't an issue. Same goes for public safety. Our citizens lives are worth more than some money. I find it disheartening that you'd take the side of letting criminals going free without earned parole then you would on public safety. Very sad dobbin, very worrying.

I think I have asked your party to put up hard numbers. We have heard the figure of $60 million. Many would like to see a breakdown of how they arrive at the number.

It is sad that your party isn't transparent. Do we really want it to be a case of prisons versus pupils as we have seen in some jurisdictions?

My party is taking action. The Liberals took no action for over 20 years and look at the mess we have now.

I'm unsure why you keep taking the side of convicted criminals over protecting the general public. If people cannot obey they law, they deserve to be punished and of that punishment involves prison time, so be it. I want convicted criminals to prove they deserve to get out early not just automatically get out early. The onus needs to be placed on the criminal. We are all responsible for our own actions it's about time convicted felons do the same.

Do you hate Canada that much that you want Grandma to freeze in the dark while you have a gleaming supermax prison built with her old age security?

Dobbin, you're really coming apart here I'm afraid. Again the monetary cost to public safety is irrelevant. I doubt you'd find one victim of violent crime who would be against this proposal. We need to consider the victims in all this not just our partisan friends. This is a non partisan issue, the public wants to feel safe and more then that it wants to be safe.

Lets keep criminals where they belong, behind bars!

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So your answer is to have these types of convicted felons roaming our streets?

So your answer is to have convicted murders escape from overcrowded prisons?

Hasworked out great for the Peg' so far eh? Gang capital of Canada, Native gangs I might add.

The proposed change of law won't have an effect for crimes committed by youth, many as young 10 to 13 years of age.

I suppose you want them in adult prisons, right?

So instead of prison riots you'd rather let them go free and be on our streets, Those animals are exactly where they belong. You'll get little sympathy from Canadians. I doubt even Iggy is stupid enough to take your position on this.

Didn't say that either. I asked you to produce numbers about how much it will cost and identify how this won't blow up in our faces.

You'll get little sympathy from Canadians for producing ever greater deficits. I don't even think Harper wants that to happen but he won't be straight about the costs. He'll leave it for someone ten years from now to make drastic choices.

Public safety is paramount. Cost is irrelevant.

So I keep hearing. Tories will raises taxes and cut services to ensure their policy is put into play. They just won't tell us the costs.

Do you care what Healthcare costs? Should we scale back healthcare services even more to save money? Of coarse not, cost isn't an issue. Same goes for public safety. Our citizens lives are worth more than some money. I find it disheartening that you'd take the side of letting criminals going free without earned parole then you would on public safety. Very sad dobbin, very worrying.

Yes, we should scale back health costs to save money.

Not the answer you expected?

My party is taking action. The Liberals took no action for over 20 years and look at the mess we have now.

Your party created accelerated parole, not mine.

I'm unsure why you keep taking the side of convicted criminals over protecting the general public. If people cannot obey they law, they deserve to be punished and of that punishment involves prison time, so be it. I want convicted criminals to prove they deserve to get out early not just automatically get out early. The onus needs to be placed on the criminal. We are all responsible for our own actions it's about time convicted felons do the same.

I'm unsure why you want to take away Grandma's old age security? Do yo hate seniors so much?

Dobbin, you're really coming apart here I'm afraid. Again the monetary cost to public safety is irrelevant. I doubt you'd find one victim of violent crime who would be against this proposal. We need to consider the victims in all this not just our partisan friends. This is a non partisan issue, the public wants to feel safe and more then that it wants to be safe.

Lets keep criminals where they belong, behind bars!

I'm afraid you are too emotional and can't be trusted with money. Tories are going to create even more massive deficits and let Grandma freeze in the dark. They hate Canada.

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I am somewhat in agreement with Mr Canada here, but with a twist. Put them away for a longer time......but......

I believe that some of the problems we are seeing with and in prisons result from the fact that prisons are no longer a "punishing" environment.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not talking about thumbscrews or torture racks, but prisons with pool tables??? Cable tv with hundreds of channels???

Prison is not supposed to be a resort.

I suggest prison reform.

Make the prisoners pay for their own upkeep.

Make them clean the prison blocks, cells, washrooms, everything.

Make them wear silly clothes. Suits in hot-pink with flowers. Something that would make the typical biker or gangsta cringe just to THINK about wearing.

Put light-industry into prisons. Set up assembly lines. Offer a minimum-wage pay structure, much of which goes towards the inmates' food, the facility's energy costs, etc etc etc.

Hell, some of these guys gotta be mechanically savvy, so set up auto-shops. Body shops. Anything that will generate an income, and allow the prisons to operate as a break-even or profit-a-little basis.

As for needing more prisons, simple, put the prisoners on the construction crew. Make them build their own prisons.

As for the pool tables and cable tv, save them as rewards for good behavior.

Someone mentioned putting prisons in the arctic. For serious, violent, maximum-security offenders that's a GREAT idea. What are they gonna do, break out and then walk 500 miles across the tundra to freedom??? More likely they'd become lunch to a hungry polar bear. News of just ONE prisoner getting devoured by a bear would give the others pause.

I heard of a man who, every fall, commits a minor crime, just enough to get himself about 6-8 months in jail. He said it's more comfortable there than living in the Salvation Army room he usually rents, because at the Sally-Ann you're not allowed to stay in your room all day, and he doesn't like going outside in winter.

May be a fictional story as I cannot find anything to cite and I heard the story word-of-mouth, but I don't doubt there's at least ONE human out there who thinks this way.

IOW, turn the prisons into prisons rather than resorts with bars. Maybe then ex-cons will think twice before doing something that'll land them back in a "vacation from society".

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I find that hard to believe. If prisons become the largest line item of government operations, that means nothing to you?

That's complete nonsense. Healthcare consumes, and will consume that vast majority of government operations. Besides, one could probably build a decent prison with the eqivalent amount of money Liberal's stole in adscam.

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Oh, and Dobbin's pseudo-concern over such a small expense when it comes to the overall federal budget is laughable.

Tell us what the expense is and I will tell you whether it is small or laughable. Your political parties hardly have a good record on financial expenses.

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That's complete nonsense. Healthcare consumes, and will consume that vast majority of government operations. Besides, one could probably build a decent prison with the eqivalent amount of money Liberal's stole in adscam.

Utter nonsense? I think not. In many jurisdictions prisons have started to squeeze all other parts of the budget.

So tell us: What taxes will you raise or what cuts will you make to keep Canada from diving deeper into deficit?

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