Union of the Canadian Right

[madmax]

In response to August 1991 poll on the Federal Left, I thought I might amuse us with a similar Federal Right poll.

[eyeball]

Should the Liberals and Conservatives find a way to Unite

To tell you the truth I'd like to see a lot more differentiation between the two.

[madmax]

To tell you the truth I'd like to see a lot more differentiation between the two.

Yeah, I kinda blew it a bit with the question and poll. Ok, so similar to August 1991.... but more rough around the edges.

Answer the best you can.

[Molly]

That's a very, very tough call.

If it was this conservative party, with no signifigant changes in personnel or standard practice, I'd have to down a couple of shots of tequila, and give my X to the NDP. However, if the Liberal presence safeguarded against the worst of the nasty, ill-considered intentions, put a lid on some of the worst of the smarm, and firmly reminded them that the money they are handling really does belong to the people of Canada...

then I'd still need the tequila, but I'd vote conservative.

[crazykai]

Do I want the NDP, who will endlessly pork barrel government money into unionized fields, whether or not it will benefit the public. Or the Tories, who are stubbornily ignorant to the nessecary role of government, either for church, out of paranoia or one's own self-centredness.

Let's just say I wouldn't vote, unless one party got really out of control and distructive.

[punked]

I would love to have the NDP in government the other two parties have shown us nothing but corruption and failure so lets try something new.

[Thomas Kwon]

I would love to have the NDP in government the other two parties have shown us nothing but corruption and failure so lets try something new.

bob rae... ontario... ring a bell?

[Rovik]

bob rae... ontario... ring a bell?

One can't compare provinical and federal parties as the same. For example, the Conservatives lead federally and also provincially in Newfoundland, but no way can you say they are similiar. This comparing the federal NDP with the Ontario NDP of the 90s has always been a blatant scare tactic to prevent people from voting for the NDP.

[punked]

bob rae... ontario... ring a bell?

Pretty sure Bob Rae is a Liberal Party member. Might have been NDP at the time but he didn't run the fiscal responsible that the NDP are known for he acted like a Liberal, or a Conservative now.

[Moonbox]

Pretty sure Bob Rae is a Liberal Party member. Might have been NDP at the time but he didn't run the fiscal responsible that the NDP are known for he acted like a Liberal, or a Conservative now.

Hey I at least admire him for finally clamping down on the teacher's union. That wasn't very NDP of him but it was fiscally responsible.

[punked]

Hey I at least admire him for finally clamping down on the teacher's union. That wasn't very NDP of him but it was fiscally responsible.

Why not Dexter just did in NS, he refused to give them what they wanted they threatened a strike he told them too, and then they met in the middle after the NSTU said they would never go for that. See the NDP is a better party then you think.

[Molly]

Yeah. I lived in Saskatchewan under Romanow's 'fiscally responsible' government.

That has a lot to do with why I don't live in Saskatchewan any more. I well remember the wholesale closure of hospitals, (particularly in non-NDP-voting areas), at the same time as highway maintenance was withdrawn so that the highways became untravelable, at the same time as urban protocols were enforced on rural ambulance services.

It's easy to balance books if you tax everyone, but only provide services to half the people.... but I wouldn't call it good government.

[madmax]

bob rae... ontario... ring a bell?

Bob Rae is where he belongs. Joining the other Failed NDP provincial leader who went to the Liberals.

Successful NDP leaders remain with the NDP and have the best fiscal records and least corruption of any government.

Tommy Douglas, Roy Romanov, Gary Doer, etc..... and soon to be successful Darrel Dexter (if everything I hear is accurate in those NS papers)

Regardless, there is the CPC above which is what this poll is for.

Edited October 20, 2009 by madmax

[madmax]

Yeah. I lived in Saskatchewan under Romanow's 'fiscally responsible' government.

That has a lot to do with why I don't live in Saskatchewan any more. I well remember the wholesale closure of hospitals, (particularly in non-NDP-voting areas), at the same time as highway maintenance was withdrawn so that the highways became untravelable, at the same time as urban protocols were enforced on rural ambulance services.

It's easy to balance books if you tax everyone, but only provide services to half the people.... but I wouldn't call it good government.

You make good points. Its very close to the Paul Martin Approach as finance minister. However, IIRC, Romanov had to clean up one of the worst fiscal messes in Canadian history and it was created by the Conservatives no less. On top of this there was the federal cuts in transfers. Sask was a basket case, and the piss poor government and destruction of the economy forced the Progressives Conservatives to run away from the Brand. We hear alot about the Ontario NDP RAE government, but it didn't hold a candle to the disaster of Devine.

Romanovs approach was different to Douglas or Blakeneys or Lloyd, as they were able to create services and balance the books and Romanov was faced with cuts across the board. Could it have been done differently? For Certain. but in Ontario Mike Harris Cut services and sold off revenue generating assest to balance the books, only the books didn't balance. Both were hard line approaches, and both Provinces had fiscal troubles handed down from the Previous governments.

[Alta4ever]

Pretty sure Bob Rae is a Liberal Party member. Might have been NDP at the time but he didn't run the fiscal responsible that the NDP are known for he acted like a Liberal, or a Conservative now.

The NDP aren't known for being fiscally responsible, Gary doer was the exception to the rule.

[madmax]

The NDP aren't known for being fiscally responsible, Gary doer was the exception to the rule.

The NDP are known for fiscal responsibility as a governing party and Bob Rae is the exception to the rule.

A popular myth that the NDP is fiscally irresponsible doesn't make it true.

http://albertatheory.blogspot.com/2009/09/...rudence-is.html

Fiscal responsibility, or prudence, is widely referred to as a conservative value. A look at the historical record however does not necessarily support this view. Small 'c' conservative governments in Canada, and in many other countries as well, have often been the most fool hardy spenders of any governments.

Tommy Douglas in forming the Canadian Cooperative Federation (CCF) constantly preached about the need for governments to live within the means of the public purse. Tommy Douglas...

What is interesting about this thread is when considering a loss of choice from the LPC, how much fiscal competence comes into the equation. Clearly from the discussion here, many people, more then half currently, have chosen to go to the CPC, which, if were put into todays election polls, would push the CPC to nearly 60% in support across Canada.

Food for thought... yes.

[Alta4ever]

The NDP are known for fiscal responsibility as a governing party and Bob Rae is the exception to the rule.

A popular myth that the NDP is fiscally irresponsible doesn't make it true.

http://albertatheory.blogspot.com/2009/09/...rudence-is.html

What is interesting about this thread is when considering a loss of choice from the LPC, how much fiscal competence comes into the equation. Clearly from the discussion here, many people, more then half currently, have chosen to go to the CPC, which, if were put into todays election polls, would push the CPC to nearly 60% in support across Canada.

Food for thought... yes.

Not the governments I remeber in BC, Saskatchewan, and Manitoba, out of all these provinces, Gary's was the only one to have any fiscal responsibility, Rae was the worst. But even when these provinces elected other governments they still managed to get losers who raided and plundered provincial coffers. When picking between losers you will never find a winner.

[eyeball]

I'm more concerned about our civil liberties, our environmental and social policies and the economy in that order. If there was only a right or a left to choose from there's no doubt I'd lean left. I'm convinced the right would expend almost all their attention on the economy and their social policies of course are mostly about moral engineering. I think both the environment and our civil liberties will only suffer as a result.

As far as governing within our means goes, first we have to balance the economy's performance with the drawdown of natural capital - ecosystems can exist without economies but not the other way around. Until we can account for this I feel quite confident in saying that its very doubtful we're living within our means let alone governing within it.

[Molly]

You make good points. Its very close to the Paul Martin Approach as finance minister. However, IIRC, Romanov had to clean up one of the worst fiscal messes in Canadian history and it was created by the Conservatives no less. On top of this there was the federal cuts in transfers. Sask was a basket case, and the piss poor government and destruction of the economy forced the Progressives Conservatives to run away from the Brand. We hear alot about the Ontario NDP RAE government, but it didn't hold a candle to the disaster of Devine.

Romanovs approach was different to Douglas or Blakeneys or Lloyd, as they were able to create services and balance the books and Romanov was faced with cuts across the board. Could it have been done differently? For Certain. but in Ontario Mike Harris Cut services and sold off revenue generating assest to balance the books, only the books didn't balance. Both were hard line approaches, and both Provinces had fiscal troubles handed down from the Previous governments.

The Romanow approach was intensely partisan, and downright vindictive. They weren't 'across the board' cuts, but rather cuts to all things rural. Urban ridings were actively pitted against rural ones, and rural ridings, especially those that were disinclined to vote NDP, were cut off at the knees. The pattern of votes tells all: no rural NDP seats, for very nearly 20 years. For some of them, another 20 won't be close to long enough.

The fact that the province was broke can certainly be blamed on Devine, but if that is done, then one must also credit that administration with some of the very positive investments that, once given a chance to show a return, made Romanow look good. The vilification of Devine is apt but overdone; the honoring of Romanow is inapt and overdone.

[punked]

Not the governments I remeber in BC, Saskatchewan, and Manitoba, out of all these provinces, Gary's was the only one to have any fiscal responsibility, Rae was the worst. But even when these provinces elected other governments they still managed to get losers who raided and plundered provincial coffers. When picking between losers you will never find a winner.

The Last NDP government in Sask balanced 11 straight budgets in a row, but don't let the facts get in your way.

[punked]

The Romanow approach was intensely partisan, and downright vindictive. They weren't 'across the board' cuts, but rather cuts to all things rural. Urban ridings were actively pitted against rural ones, and rural ridings, especially those that were disinclined to vote NDP, were cut off at the knees. The pattern of votes tells all: no rural NDP seats, for very nearly 20 years. For some of them, another 20 won't be close to long enough.

The fact that the province was broke can certainly be blamed on Devine, but if that is done, then one must also credit that administration with some of the very positive investments that, once given a chance to show a return, made Romanow look good. The vilification of Devine is apt but overdone; the honoring of Romanow is inapt and overdone.

Cumberland and Athabasca not rural enough for you? Don't let the facts get in your way though.

[madmax]

Urban ridings were actively pitted against rural ones, and rural ridings, especially those that were disinclined to vote NDP, were cut off at the knees. The pattern of votes tells all: no rural NDP seats, for very nearly 20 years. For some of them, another 20 won't be close to long enough.

Where there is smoke there is fire. I don't hear alot about the Prairie Provinces. Sask is rarely in Ontario News all we saw here was the bottomline, not how they got there. Which is why the topic I was responding to was fiscal management, and not equality of service.

The vilification of Devine is apt but overdone; the honoring of Romanow is inapt and overdone.

I leave the final vilification of Devine with these guys....

In 2004, Devine announced his intention to return to politics and run for the federal Conservative Party of Canada,[4] but the party ruled he was an undesirable candidate, and denied him the right to seek a nomination

Edited October 20, 2009 by madmax

[Molly]

Where there is smoke there is fire. I don't hear alot about the Prairie Provinces. Sask is rarely in Ontario News all we saw here was the bottomline, not how they got there. Which is why the topic I was responding to was fiscal management, and not equality of service.

I leave the final vilification of Devine with these guys....

LOL Oh yes, Devine is well and truly branded as the worst of the worst of the worst. Low shot: the same folks who rabidly supported him now rabidly support Harper, and govern the province, too, as the Sask Party.

He was not really elected as a (small c) conservative, but as a populist. His message was that the province could be in control of it's own fate and it's own prosperity-- that it could seek excellence; that it's people were very very capable, when not hamstrung and herded by government. The 'open for business' concept was adored. The resentment of 'the family of crown corporations' was very high indeed. The Regina-centrism of the NDP had pushed folks to a state of exasperation, and they were tired of the collectivist/'feed the beaurocrats first'/victim approach to everything.

Some very costly initiatives went seriously to Hell in a handcart, and the social conservative element made blood enemies (Graham Taylor with his rabidly anti-abortion stance), but Devines essential message (that 'we' could do any danged thing we set our minds to) remains close to the hearts of the citizens. He's vilified/pilloried/banned from participation because no one wants to answer for how badly things went wrong, but he is very far from hated, or even disagreed with.

Punked would like to make him into the Great Satan. He wasn't. He was sincere, and he was naive. The reaction to him is completely unlike the reaction to Rae. Folks would still vote for him, but they wouldn't want to have to explain their vote.

[Topaz]

IF people are allowing the Tories deficit because of the `recession` then what is the difference when Bob Rae`s time as Premier?? Rae has admitted mistakes he did during his time and you`ll never hear those words out of the mouth of the PM. The Tories were already into the red before the recession hit. There is NO way any one could come together with the Tory party unless it was the Wildrose Alliance.

[Jerry J. Fortin]

Harper is gaining support because of a personality makeover. It has nothing to do with policies or economics, he is just looking better and that is what the public wants, a less stuck up more or a sit and have a beer with kinda guy! If the Liberals want to take him on they will have to address the man not the party.