Ottawa knew of torture

[Sir Bandelot]

Yup and they don't detain people to torture them for information, and they recognize the authority of international courts for their soldiers, and they stick to geneva conventions. Says so right here in my in my "Sgt. Rock" comic book.

[dre]

So then your stance is it is not okay to meddle and that we should not interfere in what happens to the prisoners?

So if youre against bombing a country into the stoneage, then you must be against pressuring them through diplomacy to honor human rights?

[eyeball]

I presume you're speaking about Americans or American allies.

Yeah, I usually get a shit-whack of presumptive responses from lots of other folks around here too.

So how many other super-rogues can you name that have invaded Afghanistan and had their asses handed to them? Here's a clue, we just invited them to come back and join us there. Apparently they're game.

I doubt if the people of Afghanistan will bother to quibble over any meaningful differences between the two either. I suspect their perspective is, if you've seen one super-rogue you've seen them all. Feel free to insult anyone else who has any intelligence around that you've never ever heard me use that oft-repeated phrase.

As for Castro, Bin Laden, George Bush, et al...if you've seen one or two of these bastards you've likewise probably seen most if not all of them too.

[waldo]

An e-mail I received a while ago, pretty much sums up how I feel too.

Written by a housewife in New Brunswick , to her local newspaper. This is one ticked off lady.

'Are we fighting a war on terror or aren't we? Was it or was it not started by Islamic people who brought it to our shores on September 11, 2001 and have continually threatened to do so since?

Were people from all over the world, not brutally murdered that day, in downtown Manhattan , across the Potomac from the nation's capitol and in a field in Pennsylvania ?

Did nearly three thousand men, women and children die a horrible, burning or crushing death that day, or didn't they?

And I'm supposed to care that a few Taliban were claiming to be tortured by a justice system of the nation they come from and are fighting against in a brutal insurgency.

I'll start caring when Osama bin Laden turns himself in and repents for incinerating all those innocent people on 9/11.

I'll care about the Koran when the fanatics in the Middle East start caring about the Holy Bible, the mere belief of which is a crime punishable by beheading in Afghanistan.

I'll care when these thugs tell the world they are sorry for hacking off Nick Berg's head while Berg screamed through his gurgling slashed throat.

I'll care when the cowardly so-called 'insurgents' in Afghanistan come out and fight like men instead of disrespecting their own religion by hiding in Mosques.

I'll care when the mindless zealots who blows themselves up in search of nirvana care about the innocent children within range of their suicide bombs.

I'll care when the Canadian media stops pretending that their freedom of speech on stories is more important than the lives of the soldiers on the ground or their families waiting a home to hear about them when something happens.

In the meantime, when I hear a story about a CANADIAN soldier roughing up an Insurgent terrorist to obtain information, know this: I don't care.

When I see a wounded terrorist get shot in the head when he is told not to move because he might be booby-trapped, you can take it to the bank. I don't care.

When I hear that a prisoner, who was issued a Koran and a prayer mat, and fed 'special' food that is paid for by my tax dollars, is complaining that his holy book is being 'mishandled,' you can absolutely believe in your heart of hearts: I don't care.

And oh, by the way, I've noticed that sometimes it's spelled 'Koran' and other times 'Quran.' Well, Jimmy Crack Corn you guessed it, I don't care!!

If you agree with this viewpoint, pass this on to all your e-mail friends sooner or later, it'll get to the people responsible for this ridiculous behaviour!

If you don't agree, then by all means hit the delete button. Should you choose the latter, then please don't complain when more atrocities committed by radical Muslims happen here in our great country! And may I add: 'Some people spend an entire lifetime wondering if they made a difference in the world. But, the soldiers don't have that problem.'

I have another quote that I would like to add, AND.......I hope you forward all this. One last thought for the day: Only five defining forces have ever offered to die for you:

1. Jesus Christ

2. The Canadian Soldier..

3. The British Soldier.

4. The US Soldier, and

5. The Australian Soldier

One died for your soul, the other 4 for your freedom.

Have to admit I teared up over this heartfelt expression... could one ask for a more genuine offering that really brings it "all home". Let's thank that New Brunswick housewife for the time she took to allow us all to reflect upon torture... to put it all into perspective. Or... just send a hearty thank you to freelance columnist/political speech writer, Doug Patton http://www.snopes.com/politics/soapbox/foster.asp

[ba1614]

Have to admit I teared up over this heartfelt expression... could one ask for a more genuine offering that really brings it "all home". Let's thank that New Brunswick housewife for the time she took to allow us all to reflect upon torture... to put it all into perspective. Or... just send a hearty thank you to freelance columnist/political speech writer, Doug Patton http://www.snopes.com/politics/soapbox/foster.asp

HAHA, that's funny, I didn't know it was a fake when it made it's round, thanks.

I still agree with speech writer Doug Patton however.

[Army Guy]

I'm shocked at the amount of posters that are condoning the use of torture as a means to a ends.

One has to look at the big picture here. If Canada, a signatory of the Geneva Conventions that protect prisoners from such treatment, is willing to cast aside all of that and torture away than what's to stop less extreme elements from saying "well since Canada, once considered one of the world's foremost peacekeeping nations is willing to torture, well i guess it's ok for us to do as well. In otherwords, what this is telling hostile groups around the world that might have been iffy about torture, that if the so called Western civilized countries with their Geneva Conventions have no qualms about torture, then why should we.

Second, how do we know that a prisoner is absolutely guilty. Who knows? Perhaps the prisoner was captured due to the word of an questionable informant. And what if after torturing, we find out that the individual was indeed innocent. What then? Do we tell him, "sorry old boy, our mistake, you can go home now."

It's a sad reflection on ourselves if we are willing to torture, to inflict often extreme physical and emotional pain without remorse. I guess we are just as bad as the extremists.

I think we are blowing this all out of portion here, Canada has not tortured anyone ....And we've made sure that we fully comply with the conventions, and all we've signed on for. We've stated to the world we don't torture anyonenor do we condone it, we have serveral inquiries into the matter, and they've found little, and what they have found has been corrected.....So as a nation we've done our part....

What more is it that you want our Nation to do ? Sanctions, cutting off ties with other nations that have condone it or done it, What action will allow you to have a clear conscience....

I think we in the west have shot ourselfs in the foot when we where asked to come up with the defination of torture....i mean really depriving one of sleep, making them listen to loud disco music, or making them get into a stress postion....Shit i've had all that in one Spin class given by some physico PSP instructor....now that is torture....

And on the other hand, the talban consider those and other western methods, warm up methods, they like to get straight into the more physical methods, beatings, electric shock to the testies, drowning, before getting into the heavy stuff, like stripping off all your skin and staking you to the ground to bake in the heat and mid day sun.....or kill your father in front of you so you get a clear picture of what it is like to go to school.....

But torture is torture is it not.....as we have declared it , agreed with the discription, and signed our names to it....perhaps we should have been clearer..... I think when we boil it down all some Canadians are guilty of is not giving a shit about who tortures terrorists, as long is it is not us.....something i can sleep with....

[Topaz]

I wonder if Max Bernier knew about the report or did he leave it at his former girlfriends place? Maybe the opposition parties should ask him.

[eyeball]

I think we are blowing this all out of portion here, Canada has not tortured anyone....And we've made sure that we fully comply with the conventions, and all we've signed on for.

I wouldn't argue with that because I haven't seen any evidence that says otherwise.

We've stated to the world we don't torture anyonenor do we condone it, we have serveral inquiries into the matter, and they've found little, and what they have found has been corrected.....So as a nation we've done our part....

Yes we do condone it. We are also allied with people that we know do it (see General Hillier's new book). So as a nation we have failed miserably to do our part.

What more is it that you want our Nation to do ? Sanctions, cutting off ties with other nations that have condone it or done it, What action will allow you to have a clear conscience....

Besides an apology and reparations, these are a very good place to start.

And on the other hand, the talban consider those and other western methods, warm up methods, they like to get straight into the more physical methods, beatings, electric shock to the testies, drowning, before getting into the heavy stuff, like stripping off all your skin and staking you to the ground to bake in the heat and mid day sun.....or kill your father in front of you so you get a clear picture of what it is like to go to school.....

The west has had allies who've done this and still do.

But torture is torture is it not.....as we have declared it , agreed with the discription, and signed our names to it....perhaps we should have been clearer..... I think when we boil it down all some Canadians are guilty of is not giving a shit about who tortures terrorists, as long is it is not us.....something i can sleep with....

Too bad so many torture victims and their friends and families who survive them can't.

Edited October 23, 2009 by eyeball

[Oleg Bach]

It's not so much about Ottawa in regards to having knowledge of sanctioned sadism. It is more about the old bored boys who control big buisness who were raised as arrogant mindless private school idiots who were never quite human to begin with. The guys that control most of the insiders are a nasty bunch who kind of get a kick out of tormenting people mentally and physically if they can do it indirectly ...Yes folks there are creeps out their in high archy land in Canada - just like in the states - It's a class thing.. The evil lord on the hill loves to torment the peasants when he can not get it up....

[capricorn]

I'm shocked at the amount of posters that are condoning the use of torture as a means to a ends.

----

It's a sad reflection on ourselves if we are willing to torture, to inflict often extreme physical and emotional pain without remorse. I guess we are just as bad as the extremists.

Then, I suppose you disagree with Michael Ignatieff's stand.

The Lesser Evil : Fight Fire with Fire

Michael Ignatieff tells us how to do terrible things for a righteous cause and come away feeling good about it. In this case the terrible things are pre-emptive war (that is, aggression), targeted assassinations, ''coercive interrogations'' (torture lite) and indefinite imprisonment of suspects without trial or counsel. That is the ''lesser evil.'' The righteous cause is the preservation -- bruised but mostly intact -- of our democratic system from those who might threaten it. The failure to do so is the ''greater evil.''

Ignatieff, the director of the Carr Center for Human Rights Policy at Harvard, is no stranger to debates on the righteous use of force. He supported the American invasion of Iraq, as he did the American bombing of Belgrade and military intervention in Bosnia and Kosovo. He is an articulate advocate of what skeptics call liberal (or for that matter neoconservative) imperialism -- the use of military power to shape the world according to American interests and values.

In ''The Lesser Evil,'' originally presented last year as the Gifford Lectures at the University of Edinburgh, he turns from human rights victims and abusers to the new nemesis of our age, terrorism. His argument is essentially this: Terrorists could get hold of nuclear weapons and set them off in American cities. In the wake of the devastation the American public would demand that the government protect them at all costs. Constitutional restraints would go out the window. The United States would degenerate into a police state ruled by fear and suspicion. To those who believe we may already be moving in that direction, he warns that it could get worse. To combat this threat we must now begin a draconian war against terror that embraces measures normally repugnant to our values and legal processes.

http://www.globalpolicy.org/component/cont.../154/26699.html

To defeat evil, we may have to traffic in evils: indefinite detention of suspects, coercive interrogations, targeted assassinations, even pre-emptive war. These are evils because each strays from national and international law and because they kill people or deprive them of freedom without due process. They can be justified only because they prevent the greater evil. The question is not whether we should be trafficking in lesser evils but whether we can keep lesser evils under the control of free institutions.

Ignatieff in The New York Times Magazine in 2004.

True to the budding politician in him, Ignatieff has tried to soften his position on torture because he thinks his views will repulse the majority of Canadians. Well, I'm not repulsed whatsoever by his initial stance on torture. Too bad he flip flopped because that was one of the few things he said with which I agreed.

Anyway, the big question raised in this thread is did the Government know that Afghan prisoners were being tortured in Afghan prisons, run by Afghans. I suspect it did just as the previous Liberal governments did. I don't know that it matters much in the grand scheme. The last thing I want is for Canada to build prisons in Canada or elsewhere to house Afghan terrorists. I recall some Liberals floating the idea. Let Afghans deal with Afghans according to the wishes of their country. Even they should be allowed self government. Could we just stop trying to be the conscience of Afghanistan?

It seems to me this whole business is just the opposition politicizing what they think will sink the Conservatives. I'm sure Ignatieff gets it.

[Oleg Bach]

The idea and then the policy of American water boarding came from the private sector. Where else could such a demonic concept come from? I really don't believe that politicals actively think of evil things to do to maintain control...big buisness does think of every imaginable evil to continue with their agenda of total domination of humanity.

[bush_cheney2004]

The idea and then the policy of American water boarding came from the private sector. Where else could such a demonic concept come from? I really don't believe that politicals actively think of evil things to do to maintain control...big buisness does think of every imaginable evil to continue with their agenda of total domination of humanity.

Makes you wonder...why are their "victms" so weak? "Big Business" must get its power from somewhere.

[Oleg Bach]

Makes you wonder...why are their "victms" so weak? "Big Business" must get its power from somewhere.

Yah there are taught that they are superiour from birth - Self confidence goes a long way...How long did it take to get ours? Forty years? They got the kind of confidence that only money and privledge can buy. It's up to you or I to stand tall and not be the weak "victim" I leaned that in the courts - Once you stand fearless and in total confidence - They respect you .. and dare not mess with you - Confidence is everything... but you can't be nuts....Money in an endless stream is the juice of American confidence. It is the life blood of every confidence man.