US Torture Scandal

[Black Dog]

There is also the fact most of the dire predictions failed to come to pass. Saddam has been captured, the Iraqis defeated. According to the left that would neeeeever happen since this war was unwinnable, its another Vietnam right? A quagmire? I got a whole lot of nice quotes from a book called 'Misunderestimated' which you will find interesting, and if you want I will post them =)

Obviously, you don't know what "quagmire" means.

Nobody expected anything but a quick military victory for the U.S. But getting in was never the problem: getting out is. As it stands, the U.S. can't pull out (even if they wanted to. Which they don't, but that's another story) without risking having the whole works fall apart on them. Nor can they stay without continuing to take casualties and domestic flak. They're stuck, hence: quagmire

Oh so since we didn't ask what flag they wanted how do you know they want the old standard? I think you are adding just as much bias to this issue as you claim we are.

Iraqis Infuriated by New Flag That Was Designed in London

What gives these people the right to throw away our flag, to change the symbol of Iraq?" asked Salah, a building contractor of normally moderate political opinions. "It makes me very angry because these people were appointed by the Americans. I will not regard the new flag as representing me but only traitors and collaborators."

Dhurgham, a 23-year-old student, said: "We cheered Iraqi footballers under that flag for a long time. I feel it represents me as an Iraqi. I don't like this new flag. It does not look Iraqi. It is more like the Turkish or Israeli flags. The main reason I don't like it is that it comes from the Americans"

Overhauling national symbols

"I don't like the new one," said Dhia Assi, a bakery owner. "The old one used to make me feel revolutionary. I feel this one belongs to another country."

Riad al-Saadi, 33, called the new flag "meaningless."

"After we added 'Allahu akbar' to the old flag, we became more proud of it. The crescent of the new flag does not represent Islam," he said, adding: "The old one had nicer colors."

In Arabic nations, the colors of flags have widely recognized meanings.

Green, white and black denote Islam — harkening back to the battle banners of the medieval Islamic dynasties of the Fatimids, Ummayads and Abbasids. Green is said to have been the prophet Muhammad's favorite color; the Saudi, Libyan, Algerian and Mauritanean flags are completely or largely green.

Islamic crescents in Arab heraldry are usually green or red.

Red, meanwhile, points to Arab nationalism. It was the color of the Sharif Hussein, who led the Arab revolt against Ottoman Turkish rule in the early 1900s, and he added it to a flag of green, white and black stripes to create a symbol of pan-Arabism.

Hussein's banner was the basis for the Jordanian, Palestinian and Syrian flags — as well as the old Iraqi one.

The only Arab League members to have any blue in their flag are the African nations of Djibouti and Somalia.

Of course, but how could they do that with a dictator in power that killed anyone who wanted change? Then the USA goes in and ousts the dictator (who is keeping them from 'making the determination') and suddenly they are evil, double standard anyone?

That's by no means an easy question to answer. I'll admit to harbouring no affection for Saddam and the apparatus that kept him in power. If I were optimistic I would say that Saddam's rule, like many corrupt regimes, would eventually have rotted away from the inside.

Hopwever, it seems that the choices being offered present us with a false dichotomy of leaving Saddam in, or having the U.S force him out. I would expect other solutions,such as aiding domestic revolutionary movements, would have accomplished the goal without the messy and extremely problematic use of force.

However, politics is amoral, even moreso where oil is concerened (one must only need to point to the U.S's past support of Saddam's regime as evidence).

In light of this fact, its hard to see the U.S.'s motives as genuine.

As KK, along with any right-winger you ask, has said numerous times (and you fail to accept) is that we don't support the scandals. Why is it that you are labelling me a 'scandal supporter'? Is it because I support the invasion of Iraq (albeit not whole-heartedly)?

I was simply asking why you chose to respond to a post concerning the torture with a link to Berg's exectution. A question, I may add, I'm still awaiting an answer for.

Your use of the source indicates that those who support the USA support the scandal, which is nothing short of preposterous. The personel responsible for the scandals are being globally humiliated and tried for their crimes, also investigations are being led to bring any affiliated persons to justice as well. Let me ask you this, do you think those people who beheaded Nick are facing the same treatment? Of course not, they are heroes. The USA and the USA government are not even remotely close to being terrorist.

I never attempted to draw any equivilancy between the U.S. actions in Abu Ghirab and elsewhere and the actions of militant groups. It's apples and oranges as far as I'm concerned.

Furthermore, as I pointed out several times in this thread, there's evidence linking the methods used in Abu Ghirab with the upper echelons of the U.S. government. Will we ever see why these actions were allowed to continue for so long and why early evidence of these crimes, such as the initial Taguba report, were kept under wraps for months? Can we expect justice or scapegoats?

[Hawk]

ceasar: your rants are not welcome, please either learn to address points or go elsewhere. Notice how I will even address yours:

You claim the Iraqis are defeated; I thought the idea was to liberate them.

I think about as many Americans are dying there now since the "end of hostilities" or whatever Bush called it; as did during the invasion. Hardly seems like fait accompli there yet.

First off the Iraqis are defeated, but the USA is giving the power back to them.

Second the casualties are bloody low for the takeover of an entire nation, it seems you dont have any clue as to regular war casualties.

Here if you want to see REAL war casualties here are some sources:

WW2 - http://ww2bodycount.netfirms.com/

Vietnam - http://www.rjsmith.com/kia_tbl.html

So yeah... 'OMG THEY LOST A COUPLE HUNDRED TROOPS ITS THE NEXT VIETNAM!'... I hope you see how truly mistaken most people see you as =p

Obviously, you don't know what "quagmire" means.

Nobody expected anything but a quick military victory for the U.S.

Get your sources right, every left-leaning news outlet was predicting this as the next vietnam that the USA couldn't win. Even Michael Moore (your leftist savior) claimed the USA couldn't win when he said "The Iraqis who have risen up against the occupation are not 'insurgents' or 'terrorists' or 'The Enemy.' They are the REVOLUTION, the Minutemen, and their numbers will grow -- and they will win".

Not to mention all the left-wing media embarrasments (eg: CNN and their coverups for the coveted office in Bagdhad)

But getting in was never the problem: getting out is. As it stands, the U.S. can't pull out (even if they wanted to. Which they don't, but that's another story) without risking having the whole works fall apart on them. Nor can they stay without continuing to take casualties and domestic flak. They're stuck, hence: quagmire

Still singing the left-wing doom song I see, this isn't Vietnam, this isn't a quagmire, and once this is all over the left-wing will be singing as if it was all their idea to go into Iraq in the first place =p

Iraqis Infuriated by New Flag That Was Designed in London

http://washingtontimes.com/world/20040701-...20730-9756r.htm

Yeah guess what not everyone was pissed at the new flag =)

That's by no means an easy question to answer. I'll admit to harbouring no affection for Saddam and the apparatus that kept him in power. If I were optimistic I would say that Saddam's rule, like many corrupt regimes, would eventually have rotted away from the inside.

As is common in left-wingers you choose to ignore the problem and hope it goes away, regardless of the consequences.... that is very very sad. At least you claim to not idolize Saddam like so many left-wing North Americans I have talked to.

Hopwever, it seems that the choices being offered present us with a false dichotomy of leaving Saddam in, or having the U.S force him out. I would expect other solutions,such as aiding domestic revolutionary movements, would have accomplished the goal without the messy and extremely problematic use of force.

Again you double standard everything. They tried that uprise aid in the Cuban Missile Crisis and STILL the left-wing shrieks bloody murder. You guys can't make up your minds as to a suitable solution (except if it involves Americans being killed rather than other people)

However, politics is amoral, even moreso where oil is concerened (one must only need to point to the U.S's past support of Saddam's regime as evidence).

In light of this fact, its hard to see the U.S.'s motives as genuine.

I strongly suggest you dont use the 'oil' defence since it was proven false by both sides of the political spectrum, it was nothing more than a rumor that got big due to left-wing media outlets and now is heralded as divine truth.

In fact, look at your gas prices today... are you rolling in free oil now that the USA controls Iraq? Didn't think so.

I was simply asking why you chose to respond to a post concerning the torture with a link to Berg's exectution. A question, I may add, I'm still awaiting an answer for.

I did answer it, you just didn't read my post. You also haven't answered why me and other right-wingers are scandal supporters =)

I never attempted to draw any equivilancy between the U.S. actions in Abu Ghirab and elsewhere and the actions of militant groups. It's apples and oranges as far as I'm concerned.

Exactly, so tell me why you said this:

That because some Iraqis choose to chop of the heads of innocent people, then its okay to bugger other Iraqis and film it?

Does that not indicate you are comparing the two 'evils'?

Furthermore, as I pointed out several times in this thread, there's evidence linking the methods used in Abu Ghirab with the upper echelons of the U.S. government. Will we ever see why these actions were allowed to continue for so long and why early evidence of these crimes, such as the initial Taguba report, were kept under wraps for months? Can we expect justice or scapegoats?

And according to many people there is evidence that links alien landings to Texas =p Conspiracy theories (Moore for example) and rumors are not evidence, if there was really any evidence and not just left-wing suspicion we would be hearing about alot of arrests or court-marshals.

[Black Dog]

Get your sources right, every left-leaning news outlet was predicting this as the next vietnam that the USA couldn't win.

Let's see: the insurgency is still actively blowing stuff up left right and centre (Iraq insurgency larger than thought)...the U.S has handed over power to the U.S. apointed government more than a year earier than it was supposed to....central authority is at best, tenous....the U.S is suffering casualties on a daily basis...

If that's your idea of a decisive victory, I'd hate to see what your idea of defeat is.

Still singing the left-wing doom song I see, this isn't Vietnam, this isn't a quagmire, and once this is all over the left-wing will be singing as if it was all their idea to go into Iraq in the first place

In the future, just type "LA LA LA, I'M NOT LISTENING". It'll save you time.

Yeah guess what not everyone was pissed at the new flag =)

So why did they go back to the old one?

As is common in left-wingers you choose to ignore the problem and hope it goes away, regardless of the consequences.... that is very very sad. At least you claim to not idolize Saddam like so many left-wing North Americans I have talked to.

I seriously doubt your claim that any one of the left "idolizes" Saddam.

They tried that uprise aid in the Cuban Missile Crisis and STILL the left-wing shrieks bloody murder. You guys can't make up your minds as to a suitable solution (except if it involves Americans being killed rather than other people)

Get your history straight. Your talking about the Bay of Pigs invasion, which was two year sbefore the missile crisis, in which a U.S. proxy-force of Cuban exiles were resoundingly defeated by what was then an extremely popular and populist revoltionary movement. No comparison.

I did answer it, you just didn't read my post. You also haven't answered why me and other right-wingers are scandal supporters

First: you didn't answer the question, but attacked my source.

Second: nowhere did I indicate that you or KK support the abuse of prisoners. I simply wanted to know what the beheading of Nick Berg had to do with the new revelations about the abuse at Abu Ghraib, since you posted the link to the Berg story without explanation.

And according to many people there is evidence that links alien landings to Texas =p Conspiracy theories (Moore for example) and rumors are not evidence, if there was really any evidence and not just left-wing suspicion we would be hearing about alot of arrests or court-marshals.

There is evidence:

Memo Offered Justification for Use of Torture

I'd suggest you re-read this entire thread, as I have no desire to rehash points I already made.

[kaper1999]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/international/st...1275478,00.html

things that are being done in the name of freedom. To be or not to be is the question.

[kaper1999]

when you think that things cant go anymore low. They go really low.

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=stor...id=540&ncid=716

[kaper1999]

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/08/27/politics...pagewanted=2&hp

what a shock. Top us general sanchez gave the order for torture or should i say " harsh tactics". Same things going on today in gitmo and afghanistan. Question is how long before anyone of us gets picked up by the us army in suspision of being involved in president kennedy's assasination. Is left naked in a dark cell with hot and cold temprature and then guard dogs are brought in. How long will it take for you to confess?

[Black Dog]

Bump.

New pictures from Abu Ghraib

Some of the photos are similar to those published in 2004, others are different. They include photographs of six corpses, although the circumstances of their deaths are not clear. There are also pictures of what appear to be burns and wounds from shotgun pellets.

[America1]

The torture of prisoners is widespread and similar in Cuba and Iraq. You really believe that it is the work of individuals. geeesh. They are nothing but scapegoats.

Hey moron. How the hell do you know what is going on in GITMO or any US military prison for that matter? Have you ever been there? No, you are just talking out your *ss about things you have absolutely no idea about. No right minded American is happy with what happened at Abu Ghraib BUT, to say that it is common place is an outright crock of shit!

[Black Dog]

Hey moron. How the hell do you know what is going on in GITMO or any US military prison for that matter? Have you ever been there? No, you are just talking out your *ss about things you have absolutely no idea about. No right minded American is happy with what happened at Abu Ghraib BUT, to say that it is common place is an outright crock of shit!

So why does it keep happening?

[GostHacked]

The torture of prisoners is widespread and similar in Cuba and Iraq. You really believe that it is the work of individuals. geeesh. They are nothing but scapegoats.

Hey moron. How the hell do you know what is going on in GITMO or any US military prison for that matter? Have you ever been there? No, you are just talking out your *ss about things you have absolutely no idea about. No right minded American is happy with what happened at Abu Ghraib BUT, to say that it is common place is an outright crock of shit!

Do you what really happens in any of those camps? Can you tell me with a straight faced icon that you know what is going on there? None of us really know, but for what is out there in the media, things do NOT look promising.

I will go with the information that is out there right now. Take that blindfold off your head when you wake up.

[sharkman]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but are these 'new' pictures from the same story of the previous scandal that was reported on continuously last year? At any rate, here's yet another Mainstream Media Moment: The mild cartoons poking fun at Mohammad have been strictly off limits for the North American press since they were concerned they could offend some and cost more lives. Yet last night on TV in living colour, the newscaster barely was able to spit out the words announcing these new photos and wham bam, they showed several of them. No concerns about saving lives or offending people when a chance to embarrass the Iraqi war effort comes up. Take note, those of you who can think objectively, our media is trying to shape our attitudes and thoughts, not just give us the news.

[America1]

Hey moron. How the hell do you know what is going on in GITMO or any US military prison for that matter? Have you ever been there? No, you are just talking out your *ss about things you have absolutely no idea about. No right minded American is happy with what happened at Abu Ghraib BUT, to say that it is common place is an outright crock of shit!

So why does it keep happening?

It doesn't.

All of these pictures are from the same event.

[America1]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but are these 'new' pictures from the same story of the previous scandal that was reported on continuously last year? At any rate, here's yet another Mainstream Media Moment: The mild cartoons poking fun at Mohammad have been strictly off limits for the North American press since they were concerned they could offend some and cost more lives. Yet last night on TV in living colour, the newscaster barely was able to spit out the words announcing these new photos and wham bam, they showed several of them. No concerns about saving lives or offending people when a chance to embarrass the Iraqi war effort comes up. Take note, those of you who can think objectively, our media is trying to shape our attitudes and thoughts, not just give us the news.

You are 100% right.

[Zues]

Every American should hang his head in shame! That we have leaders that not only propagandize for torture but who condone and promote such a horrendous policy is a stain upon our nation and its integrity.

Americans will rue the day that any Bu$h family member was ever given the reins of power.

And before you brain-washed Bushbot automatons start in on me... let it be known that I'm an American and a Marine Corps Vietnam vet. I've had family members in every war since WWI and in between Vietnam and Bush war I and I have a nephew serving in Bush war II as I write.

:angry:

[Montgomery Burns]

New Abu Ghraib photos that you won't see from the MSM. And these photos are not from 2003, they are recent.

[tml12]

New Abu Ghraib photos that you won't see from the MSM. And these photos are not from 2003, they are recent.

Excellent post Monty. Very well done indeed...

[America1]

New Abu Ghraib photos that you won't see from the MSM. And these photos are not from 2003, they are recent.

No they aren't you fool. The soldiers that are in the "new" pictures are already in jail for the acts. These are ALL from the same time.

[Black Dog]

It doesn't.

All of these pictures are from the same event.

Boy, you're naive.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but are these 'new' pictures from the same story of the previous scandal that was reported on continuously last year? At any rate, here's yet another Mainstream Media Moment: The mild cartoons poking fun at Mohammad have been strictly off limits for the North American press since they were concerned they could offend some and cost more lives. Yet last night on TV in living colour, the newscaster barely was able to spit out the words announcing these new photos and wham bam, they showed several of them. No concerns about saving lives or offending people when a chance to embarrass the Iraqi war effort comes up. Take note, those of you who can think objectively, our media is trying to shape our attitudes and thoughts, not just give us the news.

Allow me to clarify: the cartoons were just that, cartoons theonly purpose of which was to provoke a reaction. These pictures are of actual events involving actual people.

[geoffrey]

It doesn't.

All of these pictures are from the same event.

Boy, you're naive.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but are these 'new' pictures from the same story of the previous scandal that was reported on continuously last year? At any rate, here's yet another Mainstream Media Moment: The mild cartoons poking fun at Mohammad have been strictly off limits for the North American press since they were concerned they could offend some and cost more lives. Yet last night on TV in living colour, the newscaster barely was able to spit out the words announcing these new photos and wham bam, they showed several of them. No concerns about saving lives or offending people when a chance to embarrass the Iraqi war effort comes up. Take note, those of you who can think objectively, our media is trying to shape our attitudes and thoughts, not just give us the news.

Allow me to clarify: the cartoons were just that, cartoons theonly purpose of which was to provoke a reaction. These pictures are of actual events involving actual people.

I agree with ya BD alot on this one, except that I think the media needs to show both the cartoons and the pictures.

Public should know whats happening. And this torture is still happening, I hope no one is actually that blind to think the US isn't torturing anyone right now. Whether torture is justified, well, I'll leave that up to you consequentialists.