Argus Posted October 6, 2009 Report Posted October 6, 2009 (edited) among the requirements to immigrate to Canada there is this stipulation regarding dependents..Have enough money to look after themselves and their dependents in Canada until they become self-supporting. Yes, it is a rule with few teeth to it. If a sponsor refuses to support the person they brought over the government does not punish the new immigrant, does not send him/her/them back home. It will pay them welfare or whatever, just as it would any other resident. It will try to get the money back from the sponsor but - not very hard. Basically, the only punishment for defaulting is they won't let you sponsor another relative - usually. Edited October 6, 2009 by Argus Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
ToadBrother Posted October 6, 2009 Report Posted October 6, 2009 Yes, it is a rule with few teeth to it. If a sponsor refuses to support the person they brought over the government does not punish the new immigrant, does not send him/her/them back home. It will pay them welfare or whatever, just as it would any other resident. It will try to get the money back from the sponsor but - not very hard. Can you provide some sort of statistics on how prevalent this is? Quote
Argus Posted October 6, 2009 Report Posted October 6, 2009 Can you provide some sort of statistics on how prevalent this is? No, and I've seriously looked. Everything out there which relates to sponsorship default seems to be aimed at the sponsor or potential sponsor, with no statistics provided on default. The only other thing I can find are agreements between various provinces and Ottawa on methods to try and recover some of the money lost due to sponsorship defaults. Ie, you will not get your gst cheque if you default on a sponsorship agreement in Ontario, for example. BC and Alberta have programs as well, but these are quibbling things. From what I've been able to determine there is no real punishment, and it isn't even a certainty that you won't be able to sponsor another relative. But as far back as when Bob Rae was premier of Ontario he was protesting at the huge cost to Ontario of defaulted immigrants and demanding Ottawa give him more money to pay for them. If Bob Rae is complaining about it you know it's not exactly a right wing paranoid delusion. Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
Argus Posted October 6, 2009 Report Posted October 6, 2009 then take the immigration test.. I imagine a number of people on this forum would likely fail to qualify for Canadian immigration... Bearing in mind, of course, that the test is only required for about 20% of immigrants. All the rest get a buy. We do not take any skills, education, linguistic abilities, religious wackiness or anything else into account. They just walk in. Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
wyly Posted October 6, 2009 Report Posted October 6, 2009 Bearing in mind, of course, that the test is only required for about 20% of immigrants. All the rest get a buy. We do not take any skills, education, linguistic abilities, religious wackiness or anything else into account. They just walk in. well that's untrue, the test is real and I know of people who failed and others who waited years to be allowed in...skills matter, it's what my father had to demonstrate he had...linguistic abilities matter but they can be somewhat neutralized by scoring high in other parts of the test, the passing score is 67 if someone can do that without english or french they are highly educated/skilled ...religious wackiness, since when is that an issue, we've thousands of home grown religious wacko's can we deport them?...no one just walks in the waiting list is years long, some are getting through on bogus refugee claims but that's isn't same immigration issue, I have no objection sending them home and apply properly... there is a lot of knee jerk xenophobia by canadians to immigration, something few have any real experience with... Quote “Conservatives are not necessarily stupid, but most stupid people are conservatives.”- John Stuart Mill
wyly Posted October 6, 2009 Report Posted October 6, 2009 No, and I've seriously looked. Everything out there which relates to sponsorship default seems to be aimed at the sponsor or potential sponsor, with no statistics provided on default. The only other thing I can find are agreements between various provinces and Ottawa on methods to try and recover some of the money lost due to sponsorship defaults. Ie, you will not get your gst cheque if you default on a sponsorship agreement in Ontario, for example. BC and Alberta have programs as well, but these are quibbling things. From what I've been able to determine there is no real punishment, and it isn't even a certainty that you won't be able to sponsor another relative.But as far back as when Bob Rae was premier of Ontario he was protesting at the huge cost to Ontario of defaulted immigrants and demanding Ottawa give him more money to pay for them. If Bob Rae is complaining about it you know it's not exactly a right wing paranoid delusion. without stats it's an opinion...I live on a street of about 50% immigrants and all have jobs but that doesn't qualify it as a fact for all immigrants, it's just anecdotal evidence... and once anyone has landed immigration status they are treated like citizens with all our benefits, if an immigrant should lose their job why shouldn't they be able to collect benefits like all canadians? if they had a job they paid into our social system, CPP UI and Fed and Prov Income Tax, they are entitled to collect as well... Quote “Conservatives are not necessarily stupid, but most stupid people are conservatives.”- John Stuart Mill
ToadBrother Posted October 6, 2009 Report Posted October 6, 2009 (edited) there is a lot of knee jerk xenophobia by canadians to immigration, something few have any real experience with... Immigration has been a bogeyman in North American politics for a couple of centuries now. Every time the economy takes a bit of a dump, or crime rates seem to go up, the first thing out of everyone's mouth is "we gotta stem immigration!" Before the Muslims and Africans, it was the Boat People, before the Boat People it was the Sikhs and other assorted types that left the various branches of the fading British Empire for a better life. Before that it was the Chinese and Japanese (and man, the kind of rhetoric written against the Chinese both in the US and Canada would make your hair curl), and before that it was the Irish, the Ukrainians, and so forth. Of course, all these groups ultimately became invaluable parts of our cultural and economic makeup, despite facing all manner of discrimination both at the political and at the social level. But still the old "blame it on the immigrants" card gets played. PS. I forgot to mention Italians. For English-speaking North America, anyone who came from a Catholic country was generally seen as a potential crook or overproducer of children that society would have to feed. You can see a modern form of this in the anti-Latino rhetoric in the US being (barely) masked as anti-illegal immigrant rhetoric. Edited October 6, 2009 by ToadBrother Quote
Oleg Bach Posted October 6, 2009 Report Posted October 6, 2009 It has nothing do do with phobas. These terms like homo-phobe...state we fear certain groups - most do not fear gays-- but some are simply irritated by their constant wants - the constant wants of immigrants or those about to immigrant should not be our concern at this time -- a nation is a family - It is a HOUSE ---when the house if full - you kindly go to the door and let the new potential arrivals know that there is no room...If we continue to keep the front door open..eventually the house becomes so full that the inhabitants are slowly force out the back door and find themselves living in the back yard in tents..there are limits..more people does not equal more peace and prosperity - Those that want more immigration are the same ones that are guilty of corporate greed...They somehow think that more slaves makes them more wealthy ---Look at the Mexican administration - they were smart and jettisoned 30 million slaves right into the United States Of America ---It was cheaper evict their own then feed the useless eaters. Quote
wyly Posted October 6, 2009 Report Posted October 6, 2009 It has nothing do do with phobas. These terms like homo-phobe...state we fear certain groups - most do not fear gays-- but some are simply irritated by their constant wants - the constant wants of immigrants or those about to immigrant should not be our concern at this time -- a nation is a family - It is a HOUSE ---when the house if full - you kindly go to the door and let the new potential arrivals know that there is no room...If we continue to keep the front door open..eventually the house becomes so full that the inhabitants are slowly force out the back door and find themselves living in the back yard in tents..there are limits..more people does not equal more peace and prosperity - Those that want more immigration are the same ones that are guilty of corporate greed...They somehow think that more slaves makes them more wealthy ---Look at the Mexican administration - they were smart and jettisoned 30 million slaves right into the United States Of America ---It was cheaper evict their own then feed the useless eaters. it's ignorance, phobia or just or just old fashioned racism in disguise...our economic system is dependent on growth, without immigration our population goes into decline...our country is very top heavy with aging baby boomers which our pension plan and healthcare system will be straining to provide for ...without immigrants and their children we're screwed... Quote “Conservatives are not necessarily stupid, but most stupid people are conservatives.”- John Stuart Mill
Oleg Bach Posted October 6, 2009 Report Posted October 6, 2009 it's ignorance, phobia or just or just old fashioned racism in disguise...our economic system is dependent on growth, without immigration our population goes into decline...our country is very top heavy with aging baby boomers which our pension plan and healthcare system will be straining to provide for ...without immigrants and their children we're screwed... Quote
Oleg Bach Posted October 6, 2009 Report Posted October 6, 2009 We are going to be screwed no matter what. If you think that these strangers from a strange land are going to be taking care of our aged who are not their aged you have another thing coming. We must strengthen our own family structures and re-affirm loyalty with in our own realm. This buisness of us living like kings at the expense of the poor and ignorant, be they immigrants or not is not a sustainable approach. I love the high grade immigration policy....which also consists of not so high grade immigrants. Recently I witnessed by the local homeless mission that feeds about 800 people a day....immigrants..brown ones - black ones etc..these people would have been homeless whether they stayed home or not... There are a lot that are the runt of the litter...It's not about racism - It's about family first - untill we are loyal to our own we do not have a hope in hell of being loyal to immigrants. EVEN they have adopted western style capitalist every man for themselves view of life. As for the "baby boomers".. Those that are aged who are not tough and not street wise and not fit to survive - let them perish - I am a boomer - and my only hope of survival is by my own wit and investment in good will to family and nation...economics does not save your ass when you are old - faith and the power of truth and real benevolence and loyality save your ass ....DON'T depend on strangers from a strange land to save your old bones. Quote
wyly Posted October 6, 2009 Report Posted October 6, 2009 We are going to be screwed no matter what. If you think that these strangers from a strange land are going to be taking care of our aged who are not their aged you have another thing coming. We must strengthen our own family structures and re-affirm loyalty with in our own realm.it's called CPP and Medicare and everyone who has job pays into it there is no choice...guess what I'm an immigrant and I pay into Medicare and CPP which I don't collect...This buisness of us living like kings at the expense of the poor and ignorant, be they immigrants or not is not a sustainable approach. I love the high grade immigration policy....which also consists of not so high grade immigrants. Recently I witnessed by the local homeless mission that feeds about 800 people a day....immigrants..brown ones - black ones etc..these people would have been homeless whether they stayed home or not...There are a lot that are the runt of the litter...It's not about racism - It's about family first - untill we are loyal to our own we do not have a hope in hell of being loyal to immigrants. EVEN they have adopted western style capitalist every man for themselves view of life. As for the "baby boomers".. that is all racism,just maybe not deliberate ...firstly how do you know they are all immigrants?...Canadians even since I was kid came in all colours many were born here...do you go to homeless missions and only see "coloured" immigrants?...what about white immigrants or don't they concern you, are you saying there are no "white" homeless canadians?... do you go to this mission and see only the coloured portion of 800 and from that you conclude there are 250,000 coloured immigrants Canada accepts every year are all in homeless missions?...shouldn't there be literally millions of homeless immigrants?...19.8% of Canada's population are immigrants, over 6 million people! are they all in homeless missions?...do you want to send them all back?.. 35% of our population is either 1st or 2nd generation how is Canada's Pension plan or medicare going to function without 10+million people contributing?...oh I forgot they're not because you're implying they're almost all in homeless missions...Those that are aged who are not tough and not street wise and not fit to survive - let them perish - I am a boomer - and my only hope of survival is by my own wit and investment in good will to family and nation...economics does not save your ass when you are old - faith and the power of truth and real benevolence and loyality save your ass ....DON'T depend on strangers from a strange land to save your old bones.I'm an immigrant and I'm a boomer as well, I paid into a pension plan and and Taxes(medicare) my entire working life I expect that returned...I've also looked after myself and if you speak to immigrants you'll find they generally look after their old age better than most Canadians, the majority of new Canadians come from countries where there is no social assistance, they already know how to survive and how to prosper with no help from the state...most happen to think like I do that our social system is fantastic and are quite willing to contribute... Quote “Conservatives are not necessarily stupid, but most stupid people are conservatives.”- John Stuart Mill
Mr.Canada Posted October 7, 2009 Author Report Posted October 7, 2009 The more people that come to Canada the worse our environmental record will be. More people = more cars = more homes = more pollution. Suburban sprawl will continue as long as 250,000 immigrants a year are coming to Canada which leads to more cars, more homes and more garbage which equals more pollution. I'd like to hear the spin the left will come up with to explain away and tryto convince people that 250,000 new people a year coming to Canada won't generate more pollution. Quote "You are scum for insinuating that isn't the case you snake." -William Ashley Canadian Immigration Reform Blog
Michael Hardner Posted October 7, 2009 Report Posted October 7, 2009 Mr. Canada I'd like to hear the spin the left will come up with to explain away and tryto convince people that 250,000 new people a year coming to Canada won't generate more pollution. This problem has nothing to do with immigration and everything to do with a growth economy that depends on population growth. We need immigration to make our economic model work. If you have a better economic model in mind, please suggest it and if it's better than our current one, I will mark myself as unexpectedly impressed. Quote Click to learn why Climate Change is caused by HUMANS Michael Hardner
wyly Posted October 7, 2009 Report Posted October 7, 2009 Mr. CanadaThis problem has nothing to do with immigration and everything to do with a growth economy that depends on population growth. We need immigration to make our economic model work. If you have a better economic model in mind, please suggest it and if it's better than our current one, I will mark myself as unexpectedly impressed. his original post questioned immigration because of it's effect on unemployment, now he's changed it to pollution...when the real reason is more obvious but hidden... Quote “Conservatives are not necessarily stupid, but most stupid people are conservatives.”- John Stuart Mill
GostHacked Posted October 7, 2009 Report Posted October 7, 2009 The more people that come to Canada the worse our environmental record will be. More people = more cars = more homes = more pollution. Regardless of immigration that will happen anyways as our populations increase. Suburban sprawl will continue as long as 250,000 immigrants a year are coming to Canada which leads to more cars, more homes and more garbage which equals more pollution. The exponential rise in global population will do that. Not just here in Canada, but all over the globe. Urban sprawl was a problem before immigration (not to mention immigration is what made Canada, don't forget it!). The car facilitated urban sprawl as well. You are not considering all factors here when you are talking about polution and waste. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_population The term world population commonly refers to the total number of living humans on Earth at a given time. As of 7 October 2009, the Earth's population is estimated by the United States Census Bureau to be 6.789 billion.[1] The world population has been growing continuously since the end of the Black Death around 1400.[2] There were also short term falls at other times due to plague, for example in the mid 17th century (see graph). The fastest rates of world population growth (above 1.8%) were seen briefly during the 1950s then for a longer period during the 1960s and 1970s (see graph). According to population projections, world population will continue to grow until around 2050. The 2008 rate of growth has almost halved since its peak of 2.2% per year, which was reached in 1963. World births have levelled off at about 134 million per year, since their peak at 163-million in the late 1990s, and are expected to remain constant. However, deaths are only around 57 million per year, and are expected to increase to 90 million by the year 2050. Because births outnumber deaths, the world's population is expected to reach about 9 billion by the year 2040 In Just over 30 years, the global population will increase by 50%. From Current 6.7 Billion to over 9 billion. Your 250,000 number is too small to really have any impact. I'd like to hear the spin the left will come up with to explain away and tryto convince people that 250,000 new people a year coming to Canada won't generate more pollution. They would create the polution here or somewhere else. So it does not matter where they are. But then again we should look at our way of life and why we are such a wasteful society. Can't exactly blame immigrats for wanting what every other Canadian already has. Quote
Michael Hardner Posted October 7, 2009 Report Posted October 7, 2009 Wyly, his original post questioned immigration because of it's effect on unemployment, now he's changed it to pollution...when the real reason is more obvious but hidden... This is a common tactic... We "can't afford them", yet it's proposed that we hike the prices of goods and services to pay Canadians more than the global labour rate. And with the arguments against Islam, they will insist they're not against the religion, however when discussing the problem it inevitably turns out to be cultural factors not religious factors that they're concerned about. And yet, in the end, it's all about banning immigrants from a certain religious group. Quote Click to learn why Climate Change is caused by HUMANS Michael Hardner
Argus Posted October 7, 2009 Report Posted October 7, 2009 well that's untrue, the test is real and I know of people who failed and others who waited years to be allowed in...skills matter, They matter if you are a primary applicant applying under the skills program. Only 20% of the immigrants to Canada are primary applicants under the skills program. That is an undeniable fact. For the rest - skills don't matter. Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
Argus Posted October 7, 2009 Report Posted October 7, 2009 without stats it's an opinion.. Why do you suppose those provinces are arranging with Ottawa ways to try and recoup some of the money from deaulters if the numbers are inconsequential? and once anyone has landed immigration status they are treated like citizens with all our benefits, if an immigrant should lose their job why shouldn't they be able to collect benefits like all canadians? if We are talking about sponsored immigrants, immigrants who would not have qualified to come here were it not for their sponsor promising to look after them, immigrants without the requisite skills and education to succeed here without tremendous upgrading. Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
Argus Posted October 7, 2009 Report Posted October 7, 2009 Of course, all these groups ultimately became invaluable parts of our cultural and economic makeup, despite facing all manner of discrimination both at the political and at the social level. But still the old "blame it on the immigrants" card gets played. Jamaicans and Haitians have been coming here in large numbers for almost 40 years now. Would you care to detail the invaluable cultural and economic assistance they have provided to Canada? Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
Argus Posted October 7, 2009 Report Posted October 7, 2009 Wyly,This is a common tactic... We "can't afford them", yet it's proposed that we hike the prices of goods and services to pay Canadians more than the global labour rate. The global labour rate? Excuse me? The global labour rate is about 6 cents an hour, isn't it? Canada does not operate on a "global labour rate" whatever the hell that is. Most of the immigrants who are doing "jobs Canadians don't want" are in the service economy. Those are not, for the most part, jobs which are going to be outsourced to Vietnam of whatever. The fact it costs a little more to clean your building or drive a cab is not going to break our economy either. And with the arguments against Islam, they will insist they're not against the religion, however when discussing the problem it inevitably turns out to be cultural factors not religious factors that they're concerned about. And yet, in the end, it's all about banning immigrants from a certain religious group. You know, if all immigrants were White and European we would at least be able to discuss the economic and cultural pros and cons of immigrantion without the polically correct squealing like old ladies looking at a dirty movie. "Oh my God! Someone is criticising immigrants! And that's like, like criticizing brown people! Aaaaahhgggh! Atack! Attack! We must defend the brown people for they're too child-like and ignorant to defend themselves!" The fact is that you PC zealots do not have a single, solitary logical economic or demographic argument which defends the current numbers and types of immigrants. The only reason you defend it is because most immigrants are brown people and that is the one and only factor governing your opposition to any talk or changes to immiigration. Your ignorant, paternalistic bigotry towards visible minorities makes you want to shut down any debate to "protect" them. If you weren't such bigots you'd be able to logically discuss immigration without regard to skin pigmentation, and without getting emotional and insulting anyone you deem to be questioning the wisdom of allowing immigration from "minorites" you see as being under your noble, self-appointed protection. Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
wyly Posted October 7, 2009 Report Posted October 7, 2009 They matter if you are a primary applicant applying under the skills program. Only 20% of the immigrants to Canada are primary applicants under the skills program. That is an undeniable fact.For the rest - skills don't matter. wonderful we'll just send all their infants and children back to live on their own...from Canada's earliest days Canada accepted FAMILIES!!! families put down roots individuals tend to drift...immigration always has been and always will be about attracting families, we want these people to stay...... 90% of immigrants have post secondary eduction more than double the rate as an equal sized group of Canadians, their children also go on to record a post secondary education at double the rate of native born Canadians...immigrants are a net bonus to Canada in what they bring to us and far out weigh any problems with a small number of unskilled refugees... Quote “Conservatives are not necessarily stupid, but most stupid people are conservatives.”- John Stuart Mill
wyly Posted October 7, 2009 Report Posted October 7, 2009 Jamaicans and Haitians have been coming here in large numbers for almost 40 years now. Would you care to detail the invaluable cultural and economic assistance they have provided to Canada? and what invaluable cultural and economic assistance has your ethnic group brought to Canada? cultural is cumulative and not something that you can attach a price tag to... Quote “Conservatives are not necessarily stupid, but most stupid people are conservatives.”- John Stuart Mill
Argus Posted October 7, 2009 Report Posted October 7, 2009 (edited) wonderful we'll just send all their infants and children back to live on their own...from Canada's earliest days Canada accepted FAMILIES!!! Most of the rest are not wives and children. 90% of immigrants have post secondary eduction No, they actually don't. Do you think you can just pull numbers out of your ass here? Most of the primary applicants do, and this influences the overall figures. However, while it's true that, because of that influence, immigrants as a whole have a higher rate of post-secondary education than Canadian born people, many of those credentials come from institutions with questionable credentials, and overall, the percentage of immigrants without a high school diploma, or even a grade eight education, is higher than that of Canadian born. I would also point out that a masters degree in engineering is of little use to someone who speaks no English, and that a degree in Islamic Thought is of no use for employment purposes. There are no economic studies in the past decade or two which show that immigration is a net bonus for Canada. I would suggest reading Immigration Policy for a start. But I know most of you people don't like to read anything more than a paragraph long. The overall economic performance of immigrants has declined irrespective of whether they have come in under the “skilled immigrant” provisions or under the “family class” provisions of the Immigration Act. Poverty is a much more prevalent attribute of recent immigrants than it was among immigrants in the past, and recent immigrants are much less likely to achieve the levels of earned income of either their predecessors or the native-born population. Martin Collacott also finds that social stresses and “ghettoization” associated with the inability to speak either of the official languages is a serious problem, as are criminal activities in some communities. Edited October 7, 2009 by Argus Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
Argus Posted October 7, 2009 Report Posted October 7, 2009 and what invaluable cultural and economic assistance has your ethnic group brought to Canada? cultural is cumulative and not something that you can attach a price tag to... If you can't back up an argument don't make it. Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
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