How Canadians view our military

[waldo]

Historically it has always taken the price of soldiers lives to get the government and people of Canada to release the purse strings...what scares me is it may take hundrds more to get our military into shape...what we should be asking is why ?

shape... of course... is relative - is subjective.

what's the reference used, the reference needed... to determine that relative, subjective - "shape"?

what's the military role... your military role... for Canada to play, both domestically and internationally?

we read suggestions from U.S. military leaders/analysts that anywhere from another 60,000 to 100,000 U.S. troops will/may be required in Afghanistan - long term - to realize what proponents of that war term, "success". In that relative sense, with Canada having apparent difficulty, today, putting together an effective troop deployment of... what... 2500 (or so) troops, what ambitions do you foster with your "getting in shape" expression? Do you hearken for the days of sending double that troop deployment number?... triple sized?... perhaps a 10,000 troop deployment capability into the world's next shithole? What's your pie-in-the sky monetary projection to be able to actually handle internal domestic requirements coupled with presumptions of grandeur incursions into foreign lands? How much... to get in shape... and more significantly... to maintain that shape, renewed - year in, year out..... for a country of 33 million? How much, for "shape"?

[Wilber]

shape... of course... is relative - is subjective.

what's the reference used, the reference needed... to determine that relative, subjective - "shape"?

what's the military role... your military role... for Canada to play, both domestically and internationally?

we read suggestions from U.S. military leaders/analysts that anywhere from another 60,000 to 100,000 U.S. troops will/may be required in Afghanistan - long term - to realize what proponents of that war term, "success". In that relative sense, with Canada having apparent difficulty, today, putting together an effective troop deployment of... what... 2500 (or so) troops, what ambitions do you foster with your "getting in shape" expression? Do you hearken for the days of sending double that troop deployment number?... triple sized?... perhaps a 10,000 troop deployment capability into the world's next shithole? What's your pie-in-the sky monetary projection to be able to actually handle internal domestic requirements coupled with presumptions of grandeur incursions into foreign lands? How much... to get in shape... and more significantly... to maintain that shape, renewed - year in, year out..... for a country of 33 million? How much, for "shape"?

A better question would be, what is your expectation? Whatever it is, he is stuck with trying to make it work with what you give him.

[nicky10013]

A better question would be, what is your expectation? Whatever it is, he is stuck with trying to make it work with what you give him.

Don't dodge it, his question was apt. What do people who want to expand the military want? The ability to defend our sovereignty? To project force abroad?

Well, considering the first question, the defence of sovereignty, considering our neighbours (Russia and the US), the notion that Canada could raise a force being able to defend our borders from something like that is absolutely ridiculous. Canada simply doesn't have the population. As for projecting force, Canada can already do that. Again, if people's notion of projecting force is fighters, tanks, artillery we've already got that. If you want Canada to deploy forces in the 10s of thousands, again, people have been sniffing glue.

No one argues that the forces DON'T need an upgrade, but people who think it should be more than a small, able, rapid reaction force in times of world peace need to define what they think their military should be. People can't just say, "it's not enough" and not come up with any solutions. People who do that merely use the soldiers as a political tool to win a debate which is just as bad in my opinion as not funding them at all.

[Moonbox]

Please...these are collpasing under the weight of their own inconsistent crap. The west should take a cue.

It's all relative. We've seen several models come and go and only one has lasted the last several hundred years. It so happens that this is our model.

Religious fundamentalism is celebrated by many people in the west and politicians of all stripes can be found sucking up to it to get elected.

The fundamentalism of the bible-thumping right wing is a LOT different from the fundamentalism that we're talking about here. Neither are a good thing, but the official adoption of the other as state law and the oppressive enforcement of that law is something altogether something else.

[nicky10013]

Not to mention Nov 11, and all them great battles dates such as D-DAY, Dieppe, to name but a few all taken up TV time, or messing with traffic for thier parades and shit.........and don't get me started on all the discounts that them Vets get on airfare, car purchases, free medical care, shit they even got thier own hospital .... and you know it's a conservative propaganda plot again'st all Canadians because the liberals don't use the military....shit they don't even like them....I'm with you man, hey pass me some of that weed....Sooooooooo what great debates is the Canadian public being distracted from again....US health care right......your right lets get out our pickets mannnnn...i'm with ya.....

I want to ask you just how much of your tax dollars you think you pay into Afghan mission or for that matter the military.....Considering that last year the bill for Afghan was under 2 Bil.....I think it works out to each Canadian puts in under 20 dollars out of thier total tax bill into this mission.....send me your address and i'll send you your 20 bucks if it bothers you that much.....

Japans miltary budget last year was twice as high as ours is. Calling Ireland and Austria a middle global power is somewhat a reach don't you think....

Calling Ireland and Austria middle global powers may be a stretch, but the Greater Tokyo Area has a population about the same as all of Canada. So as much as he stretched the truth, you're doing the same.

[M.Dancer]

Calling Ireland and Austria middle global powers may be a stretch, but the Greater Tokyo Area has a population about the same as all of Canada. So as much as he stretched the truth, you're doing the same.

Japan has constitutional issues regarding defense. Something to do with history

[Smallc]

Japans miltary budget last year was twice as high as ours is.

You do realize how many people live in Japan, right? We have a higher per capita spending than the European average. I realize it's never enough, but unfortunately, it never will be.

[Guest TrueMetis]

You do realize how many people live in Japan, right? We have a higher per capita spending than the European average. I realize it's never enough, but unfortunately, it never will be.

Wouldn't size of a country have more of an effect on military spending than population?

[Smallc]

.and while there is alot of semi modern equipment

How can brand new equipment (the Husky, etc) be semi modern? We've bought a great deal of brand new equipment since entering Afghanistan, and even you have to admit that. We weren't prepared when we got there, and things aren't perfect yet, but they're certainly a great deal better.

they are also replacing the T-Lav's ( modified M-113) with perhaps CV-90's but only a handeful will be purchased....

How many do you want? There is so much new and upgraded equipment on order, I'm not sure how the country can afford much more. We're already spending $20B (more including procurements) per year. There's only so much money.

[Smallc]

Wouldn't size of a country have more of an effect on military spending than population?

No, because you need money to pay for a military. Empty land doesn't pay for anything. Japan has a far larger population and a far larger GDP.

[Oleg Bach]

I am a Canadian and this is how I vew OUR military. They are the decendants primarily of our old original stock. Trusting white anglos boys decended from Christians who are naive and child like who actually believe in the system as their parents and grand parents did. They are literally a dying breed...and if there is some sort of cult that exists amongst the elite - they are lambs led to slaughter in some sort of gleeful darkish ritual...where bodies are sent back to the coroners office to be experimented on by the overly calous and curious.

[M.Dancer]

We have a higher per capita spending than the European average.

You realy should stop making stuff up about Canada's defence...it's a serious subject and your constantly posting innacuracies is tiresome.

.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_count...rcentage_of_GDP

Only a few european nations spend less than us .

[Oleg Bach]

Ask yourself the question.."Is the life of one good man worth the entire empire of Rome"? I say that one soldiers' life tossed aside uselessly taints the whole empire of Canada and makes said empire worthless.

[wulf42]

I am a Canadian and this is how I vew OUR military. They are the decendants primarily of our old original stock. Trusting white anglos boys decended from Christians who are naive and child like who actually believe in the system as their parents and grand parents did. They are literally a dying breed...and if there is some sort of cult that exists amongst the elite - they are lambs led to slaughter in some sort of gleeful darkish ritual...where bodies are sent back to the coroners office to be experimented on by the overly calous and curious.

Then you should leave this country and stay out!.....at least they have guts to

fight what have you ever done for Canada??

[Smallc]

Only a few european nations spend less than us .

I didn't say anything about the GDP. Per capita, we spend more than the European average.

http://www.nato.int/docu/pr/2009/p09-009.pdf

Page 7.

Edited September 22, 2009 by Smallc

[Oleg Bach]

Then you should leave this country and stay out!.....at least they have guts to

fight what have you ever done for Canada??

I come from a long line of soldiers - artists, priests and musicans - My father consciously dishonoured himself serving as an honour guard for Stalin at the Kremlin - he also was a double operative in occupied Paris..he suffered through the tail end of a revolution and saw his own father shot....He was also envolved in a failed undocumented attempt against the life of Hitler....Being brought up by such a man I do not cheer foolishly at the waste of human life..life of fellow members of my own race and religion.

As for what I have done for my country...let me tell you - I fought for seven solid years within YOUR corrupt judical system and tuned the damned thing embarassing the lowest lawyer to the chief justice herself - they needed to be repremanded..for lack of due diligence and ignoring of the feduciary duty - It took a great toll on my health...as for our American friends - I assisted with full force of energy in helping them produce propoganda for the people thought the motion picture buisness - 18 years of my life sacraficed and got nothing but a tax problem as thanks...what have you done?

[Oleg Bach]

Also- show me one single thing that was positive about the Afghani adventure...and I don't want to hear - the cheeze ball rhetorical "so a little girl can go to school" when children live in poverty and abuse her in Canada.

[Guest American Woman]

Also- show me one single thing that was positive about the Afghani adventure...and I don't want to hear - the cheeze ball rhetorical "so a little girl can go to school" when children live in poverty and abuse her in Canada.

There are laws against abuse in Canada, and agencies to deal with it, and no matter how poor, children in Canada are able to attend school. So I think "a little girl" being able to go to school is a very positive thing, and can't understand how anyone would view it any other way.

[Guest TrueMetis]

No, because you need money to pay for a military. Empty land doesn't pay for anything. Japan has a far larger population and a far larger GDP.

If you have a large country you would have to pay more to defend it than a small country. Regardless of population size.

[Oleg Bach]

There are laws against abuse in Canada, and agencies to deal with it, and no matter how poor, children in Canada are able to attend school. So I think "a little girl" being able to go to school is a very positive thing, and can't understand how anyone would view it any other way.

That's a lot of crap. We have an "agency system" that in the long run abuses and damages children. Sure they always say "It's the interests of the children that should be first addressed" - In the long run these machines are no more than punishing mechanisms to keep adults afraid of losing what they love most - We have a control system here hiding behind the false front of benevolence...There are over 19 thousand children in so-called protective custody in the greater GTA...It's a huge buisness that employs thousands of well meaning twits...We will NEVER bring the civilian population of Afghanistan up to a civilized level...and Frankly it is none of our buisness what these ancient tribalist do or how they live.

[M.Dancer]

I didn't say anything about the GDP. Per capita, we spend more than the European average.

http://www.nato.int/docu/pr/2009/p09-009.pdf

Page 7.

Oh do make up your mind....

No, because you need money to pay for a military. Empty land doesn't pay for anything. Japan has a far larger population and a far larger GDP.

Per capita is useful if you want to measure crime and such, useless when it comes to pulling your weight. We, unlike the Europeans, have the US to look after our borders...

[Oleg Bach]

Looks like the cheering military debater has left the building. There was a time when thousands died in one single day - that was war. This buisness about dragging one body home at a time and having a very expensive personal autospy on each poor soldier is quite bizzare. What the hell is this buisness? It's like we are living in an ant farm and someone is experimenting on us.. What for God's sake are they doing at the coroners office? Are they gathering a wealth of information about tramatic bodily injury...about men who literally sit down on an explosive device loosing their ass - penis - legs and testicals? What the hell are they doing with the "information?" How many more corpses do they have to look at?

[Guest American Woman]

That's a lot of crap. We have an "agency system" that in the long run abuses and damages children. Sure they always say "It's the interests of the children that should be first addressed" - In the long run these machines are no more than punishing mechanisms to keep adults afraid of losing what they love most - We have a control system here hiding behind the false front of benevolence...There are over 19 thousand children in so-called protective custody in the greater GTA...It's a huge buisness that employs thousands of well meaning twits...We will NEVER bring the civilian population of Afghanistan up to a civilized level...and Frankly it is none of our buisness what these ancient tribalist do or how they live.

Speaking of "a lot of crap," I'm not even going to ask for validation of your figures, because 19,000 is only .34% of the GTA population, so I don't find that particularly "huge" by any means. Also, since you have no idea why the child protective services is involved in the cases it is involved in, your figures mean nothing. And again in regards to "a lot of crap," first you complain about the poverty and "abuse" that children in Canada suffer, and then when it's pointed out that there are laws and agencies to deal with it here that children in third world countries aren't protected by, you criticize that, too. Seems there's no pleasing you. And the "biggest lot of crap," is concluding that, because you feel this way, girls being able to go to school in Afghanistan isn't a positive thing. Pretty weird line of logic.

We'll never bring "[them]" to a civilized level as long as we do nothing to help, but just turn a blind eye, and not see helping girls being able to get an education as "positive," for example. Furthermore, those who "have" owe it to help "those who don't have" through no fault of their own. It's the luck of the draw where one is born and whom one is born to. So yes, it is our business to help where we can. That's part of being "civilized."

[Oleg Bach]

I inflated the figure from 14 thousand..because my figure was dated so I brought it up to date assuming there must be more in "care' by now. As for females getting opportunities and educations - I am all for that...BUT...It is odd and hypocritical of Canada who's military was told to turn a blind eye to tribesmen sodomizing and damaging young males for life! YET - they go on about the female Afghan populace....frankly it is none of our buisness how they have their social structure set up over their - BUT you would think that they would protect the boys as well as the girls in Afghanistan...BUT we impliment our domestic policy THERE...as well as here...that being to screw males and raise females in a bid to socially engineer some new system...a system that weakens the male power and empowers the female forces...YET the whole plan will be controled by sinsister and clever males just like here...We have no right to socially engineer this primative culture - I hope they continue to resist.

[Smallc]

Oh do make up your mind....

I wasn't using GDP to compare expenses (though it's a completely valid comparison), but it's hard to deny that Japan has one of the largest economies in the world and a population more the 3 times that of ours. We don't spend much as a percentage of GDP, but we do in terms of per capita figures and real dollars. Because you want more, you point to the figure that makes us look bad, when the other two figures show that we're actually spending a great deal.