Omar Khdar

[Argus]

the repatriation of Khadr to Canada – what are you, and the Harper Conservatives, afraid of?

Describing the reluctance of conservatives to put any effort into repatriating the man is mere hyperbole. We place zero importance on trying to get him back because we place zero importance on him.

A better question is why is Khadr such a heroic figure to leftists like you? Why has the Canadian Bar put out something like 200 articles and statements about Khadr but ignored the plight of every other Canadian being held abroad?

Is it done out of some twisted sense of hatred for the Americans combined with a bleeding heart liberalism which makes you implore the world to safeguard your hero? You wrap him in the flag - a flag he probably has never seen, trying to get him back so he can tear it off and defecate onto it.

[wulf42]

tell me if you think these words, your words, “differentiate between the two”… and these words from just your most immediate recent posts:

is that the differentiation you speak to… the differentiation you claim to see?

sprinkling your invective language with derogatory claims/accusations against Liberals further highlights your ignorance/agenda. If nothing else – you need to recognize there is a very clear differentiation of another kind… liberalism does not equate to pacifism.

the repatriation of Khadr to Canada – what are you, and the Harper Conservatives, afraid of?

Oh Waldo..............it is the Liberals pushing for his return! Nobody else wants him.

Half of Canada does not want this enemy terrorist back among us...nobody is afraid of anything

we just want to slam the doors shut on the enemy and keep them out!

While i support peaceful Muslims living here, this religion has showed nothing but violence time

and time again! I provided a list of attacks over the years, facts are facts! and they can t get any plainer than that list!

You as with most Liberals simply use Omar as part of your anti USA campaign.... and are willing to risk

the safety of real Canadians to promote your silly passive agenda!

What is Waldo and the Liberals afraid of??

Edited September 9, 2009 by wulf42

[waldo]

The charges against Khadr are serious ones - and they came about not through a bank robbery or a random crime - they were committed on a battlefield against an ally. As such, there is a very strong argument that this puts the Khadr situation in the realm of Foreign Affairs and the government's argument is that the courts cannot dictate or influence Foreign Affairs. The dissenting judge agreed and we'll now see what the Supreme Court says. This is not an ordinary case of a Canadian committing a crime in a foreign country. Let the process unfold.

the Conservatives “treading on Foreign Affairs” argument is a complete deflection and a most specious appeal… if one actually recognizes the basis of the original 2008 Supreme Court ruling and the subsequent Federal Court & Court of Appeal rulings. The Conservatives tried this same Foreign Affairs angle in its appeal to the Federal Court ruling… and lost. Those respective court rulings kept to a very narrow interpretation, I expect, so as not to be seen wading into the Foreign Affairs arena. The court rulings base/accept the repatriation order on Charter breeches to Khadr’s rights – ordering that Canada must present a request to the United States for Khadr’s repatriation.

the Harper Conservatives previous failing argument held that it (the government) should have the unfettered discretion to decide whether and when to request the return of Khadr, a Canadian citizen detained in a foreign country… I guess, as you state, “letting the process unfold”. Meanwhile, 7 years+ and counting… is that process still unfolding?

apparently, your unfolding process, would have the Harper Conservative government, itself, interpreting the Charter (selectively, it would seem) and metering out remedies (or not) in the pursuit of Charter rights abuses based on other (also selective) criteria. As we’ve seen – this Harper Conservative selective criteria appears to manifest itself in the form of a Conservative value system… to Harper Conservatives, there are different categories, different types of Canadians.

[wulf42]

the Conservatives “treading on Foreign Affairs” argument is a complete deflection and a most specious appeal… if one actually recognizes the basis of the original 2008 Supreme Court ruling and the subsequent Federal Court & Court of Appeal rulings. The Conservatives tried this same Foreign Affairs angle in its appeal to the Federal Court ruling… and lost. Those respective court rulings kept to a very narrow interpretation, I expect, so as not to be seen wading into the Foreign Affairs arena. The court rulings base/accept the repatriation order on Charter breeches to Khadr’s rights – ordering that Canada must present a request to the United States for Khadr’s repatriation.

the Harper Conservatives previous failing argument held that it (the government) should have the unfettered discretion to decide whether and when to request the return of Khadr, a Canadian citizen detained in a foreign country… I guess, as you state, “letting the process unfold”. Meanwhile, 7 years+ and counting… is that process still unfolding?

apparently, your unfolding process, would have the Harper Conservative government, itself, interpreting the Charter (selectively, it would seem) and metering out remedies (or not) in the pursuit of Charter rights abuses based on other (also selective) criteria. As we’ve seen – this Harper Conservative selective criteria appears to manifest itself in the form of a Conservative value system… to Harper Conservatives, there are different categories, different types of Canadians.

Omar is not a Canadian! He is Al Qaeda you know the people our boys are killing in Afghanistan???

This is an enemy saboteur and he should be dragged out by the feet and shot as such....Why are the Liberals so eager to put real Canadians lives at risk for a terrorist??? it begs the question whose side are you on???

Edited September 9, 2009 by wulf42

[Keepitsimple]

So if the Supreme Court is not unanimous, the government should ignore it?

You don't normally make dumb statements.....but I'd have to say that this is one of them.

[waldo]

tell me if you think these words, your words, “differentiate between the two”… and these words from just your most immediate recent posts:

“force their evil religion upon us”….. “the Islamo’s”….. “this shows how much of a "peaceful religion" Islam is”

is that the differentiation you speak to… the differentiation you claim to see?

sprinkling your invective language with derogatory claims/accusations against Liberals further highlights your ignorance/agenda. If nothing else – you need to recognize there is a very clear differentiation of another kind… liberalism does not equate to pacifism.

the repatriation of Khadr to Canada – what are you, and the Harper Conservatives, afraid of?

it is the Liberals pushing for his return!

You as with most Liberals simply use Omar as part of your anti USA campaign.... and are willing to risk the safety of real Canadians to promote your silly passive agenda!

actually… it is the Canadian Courts that are, as you say, “pushing for the return” of Khadr.

as I pointed out with a smattering of your recent posts, your comments betray you and your agenda. In your clouded and misguided zeal, you would step over our very foundations to foster your real aim.

do you think an out-of-the-blue accusation of anti-Americanism strengthens your argument… whatever that argument actually is??? Interesting that you interpret promoting Canadian justice and respect for our laws & constitution as a, as you state, “silly passive agenda.”

[wulf42]

[/indent]

is that the differentiation you speak to… the differentiation you claim to see?

sprinkling your invective language with derogatory claims/accusations against Liberals further highlights your ignorance/agenda. If nothing else – you need to recognize there is a very clear differentiation of another kind… liberalism does not equate to pacifism.

the repatriation of Khadr to Canada – what are you, and the Harper Conservatives, afraid of?

actually… it is the Canadian Courts that are, as you say, “pushing for the return” of Khadr.

as I pointed out with a smattering of your recent posts, your comments betray you and your agenda. In your clouded and misguided zeal, you would step over our very foundations to foster your real aim.

do you think an out-of-the-blue accusation of anti-Americanism strengthens your argument… whatever that argument actually is??? Interesting that you interpret promoting Canadian justice and respect for our laws & constitution as a, as you state, “silly passive agenda.”

Its no secret that the Liberal's love to bash the USA ..............and according to you we should with

open arms bring a terrorist who was captured by our ALLY!!! back into the country! why would we want this creature back??? the U.S caught him let them keep him he is THEIR problem!

...why do you defend a terrorist??? Again whose side are you on??

Imagine what our soldiers must be thinking?? They are over there fighting the very people

you are defending.......disgusting really!

[waldo]

Omar is not a Canadian! He is Al Qaeda you know the people our boys are killing in Afghanistan???

This is an enemy saboteur and he should be dragged out by the feet and shot as such....Why are the Liberals so eager to put real Canadians lives at risk for a terrorist??? it begs the question whose side are you on???

Its no secret that the Liberal's love to bash the USA ..............and according to you we should with open arms bring a terrorist who was captured by our ALLY!!! back into the country! why would we want this creature back??? the U.S caught him let them keep him he is THEIR problem!

...why do you defend a terrorist??? Again whose side are you on??

Imagine what our soldiers must be thinking?? They are over there fighting the very people

you are defending.......disgusting really!

perhaps you might wish to pursue your selectivity in defining Canadians and attaching "sides"... with the Justices of the Supreme Court, the Federal Court and the Federal Court of Appeal. You may wish to review their considerations of Canadian Khadr's Charter applicability/rights prior to advising them of your rationale and arguments:

- 2008 Supreme Court -

BETWEEN: Minister of Justice, Attorney General of Canada, Minister of Foreign Affairs, Director of the Canadian Security Intelligence Service and Commissioner of the Royal Canadian Mounted Police – Appellants vs. Omar Ahmed Khadr – Respondent and British Columbia Civil Liberties Association, Criminal Lawyers’ Association (Ontario), University of Toronto, Faculty of Law International Human Rights Clinic and Human Rights Watch – Interveners

- 2009 Federal Court -

BETWEEN: OMAR AHMED KHADR – Applicant vs. THE PRIME MINISTER OF CANADA, THE MINISTER OF FOREIGN AFFAIRS, THE DIRECTOR OF THE CANADIAN SECURITY INTELLIGENCE SERVICE, AND THE COMMISSIONER OF THE ROYAL CANADIAN MOUNTED POLICE – Respondents

- 2009 Federal Court of Appeal -

BETWEEN: THE PRIME MINISTER OF CANADA, THE MINISTER OF FOREIGN AFFAIRS, THE DIRECTOR OF THE CANADIAN SECURITY INTELLIGENCE SERVICE, AND THE COMMISSIONER OF THE ROYAL CANADIAN MOUNTED POLICE – Appellants vs. OMAR AHMED KHADR – Respondent

The case for Mr. Khadr’s repatriation to Canada is plain. He was 15 years old when he was apprehended in Afghanistan. He has not been fully afforded the basic entitlements of due process under the Rule of Law, such as the right to counsel and the right to know the case against him, nor has he been afforded any process that takes into account his unique status as a minor. He has been detained in the general population of detainees in Guantanamo Bay, without any physical, psychological or educational services that would normally be afforded a minor under the terms of the Optional Protocol to the Convention on the Rights of the Child on the Involvement of Children in Armed Conflict.

Mr. Khadr has already spent six years in pre-trial custody. The U.S. has had ample opportunity to bring its processes into compliance with the tenets of the Rule of Law and its international obligations, and to try him.

Once Mr. Khadr is repatriated, it will be up to officials in the Canadian justice system to conduct an independent assessment of admissible evidence against him, to determine whether this evidence supports charges under Canadian law, and if so, whether he should be tried as an adult or a child. Because of the secrecy and allegations of torture that have plagued the U.S. proceedings to date, the best chance to fairly and openly assess Mr. Khardr’s criminal culpability may in fact be in Canadian proceedings.

[wulf42]

perhaps you might wish to pursue your selectivity in defining Canadians and attaching "sides"... with the Justices of the Supreme Court, the Federal Court and the Federal Court of Appeal. You may wish to review their considerations of Canadian Khadr's Charter applicability/rights prior to advising them of your rationale and arguments:

- 2008 Supreme Court -

BETWEEN: Minister of Justice, Attorney General of Canada, Minister of Foreign Affairs, Director of the Canadian Security Intelligence Service and Commissioner of the Royal Canadian Mounted Police – Appellants vs. Omar Ahmed Khadr – Respondent and British Columbia Civil Liberties Association, Criminal Lawyers’ Association (Ontario), University of Toronto, Faculty of Law International Human Rights Clinic and Human Rights Watch – Interveners

- 2009 Federal Court -

BETWEEN: OMAR AHMED KHADR – Applicant vs. THE PRIME MINISTER OF CANADA, THE MINISTER OF FOREIGN AFFAIRS, THE DIRECTOR OF THE CANADIAN SECURITY INTELLIGENCE SERVICE, AND THE COMMISSIONER OF THE ROYAL CANADIAN MOUNTED POLICE – Respondents

- 2009 Federal Court of Appeal -

BETWEEN: THE PRIME MINISTER OF CANADA, THE MINISTER OF FOREIGN AFFAIRS, THE DIRECTOR OF THE CANADIAN SECURITY INTELLIGENCE SERVICE, AND THE COMMISSIONER OF THE ROYAL CANADIAN MOUNTED POLICE – Appellants vs. OMAR AHMED KHADR – Respondent

Well half of Canada disagrees...and i am sure their opinion counts!

and as far as the Canadian Justice system goes........lol ...well i am pretty

sure the Americans are really concerned over that...........NOT! The American

don t give a hoot what our so called Justice thinks...they are going to do with him what they

want.....they caught this animal they can deal with him, because we don t want this garbage back!

[waldo]

Well half of Canada disagrees...and i am sure their opinion counts!

and as far as the Canadian Justice system goes........lol ...well i am pretty

sure the Americans are really concerned over that...........NOT! The American

don t give a hoot what our so called Justice thinks...they are going to do with him what they

want.....they caught this animal they can deal with him, because we don t want this garbage back!

the U.S. has complied with requests from all other western countries for the return of their nationals from detention in the prison at Guantanamo Bay.

Khadr’s (former) U.S. defense counsel with the Office of Military Commissions, Lieutenant Commander William C. Kuebler, Judge Advocate General’s Corps, United States Navy, has provided an affidavit that states:

... I am aware that the U.S. government has undertaken efforts to have the Canadian government accept the return of Omar to Canada to face a prosecution in Canada, and has shared evidence against Omar with the Government of Canada to help facilitate this repatriation process. I believe that the U.S. government would release Omar from Guantanamo Bay and allow his repatriation should the Canadian government request that this happen.

[Keepitsimple]

the U.S. has complied with requests from all other western countries for the return of their nationals from detention in the prison at Guantanamo Bay.

It's been stated many times.....Khadr is the only "Westerner" to be charged with murder, among other serious charges. All the others were bit players - "providing material support for terrorism". If Khadr had been charged with lesser crimes like the others, he would have been repatriated - despite his entire family's hatred of Canada and the West.

[waldo]

the U.S. has complied with requests from all other western countries for the return of their nationals from detention in the prison at Guantanamo Bay.

Khadr’s (former) U.S. defense counsel with the Office of Military Commissions, Lieutenant Commander William C. Kuebler, Judge Advocate General’s Corps, United States Navy, has provided an affidavit that states:

... I am aware that the U.S. government has undertaken efforts to have the Canadian government accept the return of Omar to Canada to face a prosecution in Canada, and has shared evidence against Omar with the Government of Canada to help facilitate this repatriation process. I believe that the U.S. government would release Omar from Guantanamo Bay and allow his repatriation should the Canadian government request that this happen.

If Khadr had been charged with lesser crimes like the others, he would have been repatriated

are you really suggesting that the severity of charges dictates whether or not the Harper Conservatives would move to repatriate a Canadian being held in a foreign nations custody... any Canadian… any foreign nation?

you’ve recently described the Conservatives reluctance to repatriate Khadr in terms of the Courts intruding into the realm of Foreign Affairs… which is it then... the Foreign Affairs angle or the seriousness of the charges that precludes the Harper Conservatives from accepting the Federal Court ruling to repatriate Khadr?

[M.Dancer]

[/indent]

are you really suggesting that the severity of charges dictates whether or not the Harper Conservatives would move to repatriate a Canadian being held in a foreign nations custody... any Canadian… any foreign nation?

Absolutely. All the other detainees who were released were never charged with any crime.

[Keepitsimple]

[/indent]

are you really suggesting that the severity of charges dictates whether or not the Harper Conservatives would move to repatriate a Canadian being held in a foreign nations custody... any Canadian… any foreign nation?

you’ve recently described the Conservatives reluctance to repatriate Khadr in terms of the Courts intruding into the realm of Foreign Affairs… which is it then... the Foreign Affairs angle or the seriousness of the charges that precludes the Harper Conservatives from accepting the Federal Court ruling to repatriate Khadr?

Both actually. As long as the country in question is democratic and has a modern justice system.....like Britain, Australia, many European countries and yes, the US. Canada has never had a rule for "repatriating" common murderers from the US before they have been tried and sentenced. If a Canadian murders someone in the US, they are subject to their laws - and serve time in their prisons.

[wulf42]

the U.S. has complied with requests from all other western countries for the return of their nationals from detention in the prison at Guantanamo Bay.

Khadr’s (former) U.S. defense counsel with the Office of Military Commissions, Lieutenant Commander William C. Kuebler, Judge Advocate General’s Corps, United States Navy, has provided an affidavit that states:

He Killed an American soldier! he isn t going anywhere!

[bush_cheney2004]

...you’ve recently described the Conservatives reluctance to repatriate Khadr in terms of the Courts intruding into the realm of Foreign Affairs… which is it then... the Foreign Affairs angle or the seriousness of the charges that precludes the Harper Conservatives from accepting the Federal Court ruling to repatriate Khadr?

Different issues.....it is not clear to me how/why Canada would have jurisdiction for any charges or indictments after any such repatriation, let alone access to witnesses and evidence.

[bush_cheney2004]

Both actually. As long as the country in question is democratic and has a modern justice system.....like Britain, Australia, many European countries and yes, the US. Canada has never had a rule for "repatriating" common murderers from the US before they have been tried and sentenced. If a Canadian murders someone in the US, they are subject to their laws - and serve time in their prisons.

Precisely.....Khdar does not get a free pass for political purposes. Canada has intervened for their convicted nationals abroad, but only after the trial and punishment phases (e.g. objection to death penalty).

[waldo]

Both actually

excellent... and there we have it. Neither of those aspects play into the Federal Court ruling order to request Khadr's repatriation.

Khadr's lawyers sought judicial review within Canada on the basis that the 2008 Supreme Court ruling gave rise to an obligation for Canada to take steps to further protect Khadr from abuse... that the request to repatriate Khadr was the only available protection. The argument before the Federal Court, the argument won by Khadr, was that in failing to request his repatriation, the Canadian government was following an ongoing policy against his repatriation, one that offended a principle of fundamental justice and breached Khadr's Charter rights... the remedy to which is the Charter's Enforcement of guaranteed rights and freedoms within 24.1

24. (1) Anyone whose rights or freedoms, as guaranteed by this Charter, have been infringed or denied may apply to a court of competent jurisdiction to obtain such remedy as the court considers appropriate and just in the circumstances.

and that Federal Court remedy (to further protect Khadr's Charter rights, as a Canadian), of course, was to request his repatriation.

it would appear the U.S. government is accommodating to that Federal Court remedy request ruling to repatriate Khadr... as I previously stated: Khadr’s (former) U.S. defense counsel with the Office of Military Commissions, Lieutenant Commander William C. Kuebler, Judge Advocate General’s Corps, United States Navy, has provided an affidavit that states:

... I am aware that the U.S. government has undertaken efforts to have the Canadian government accept the return of Omar to Canada to face a prosecution in Canada, and has shared evidence against Omar with the Government of Canada to help facilitate this repatriation process. I believe that the U.S. government would release Omar from Guantanamo Bay and allow his repatriation should the Canadian government request that this happen.

=> Federal Court remedy request ruling - check

=> U.S. government accepting to accommodating the Federal Court remedy request ruling - check

=> Harper Conservatives ignoring the Federal Court remedy request ruling in favour of a Supreme Court challenge - check

[waldo]

He Killed an American soldier! he isn t going anywhere!

notwithstanding the wulf42 court's determination... you are a simpleton. As succinctly stated by the Canadian Bar Association:

Once Mr. Khadr is repatriated, it will be up to officials in the Canadian justice system to conduct an independent assessment of admissible evidence against him, to determine whether this evidence supports charges under Canadian law, and if so, whether he should be tried as an adult or a child. Because of the secrecy and allegations of torture that have plagued the U.S. proceedings to date, the best chance to fairly and openly assess Mr. Khardr’s criminal culpability may in fact be in Canadian proceedings.

the wulf42 court's ruling in determining quilt carries as much legitimacy as any other court rulings made in that regard... wait... there are no other court rulings that have determined Khadr's guilt, since the U.S. has seen fit, after 7+ years, to leave Khadr languishing in the Guantanamo "hell-hole". Does that mean the wulf42 court ruling carries no legitimacy... why, yes... it does!

[wulf42]

notwithstanding the wulf42 court's determination... you are a simpleton. As succinctly stated by the Canadian Bar Association:

the wulf42 court's ruling in determining quilt carries as much legitimacy as any other court rulings made in that regard... wait... there are no other court rulings that have determined Khadr's guilt, since the U.S. has seen fit, after 7+ years, to leave Khadr languishing in the Guantanamo "hell-hole". Does that mean the wulf42 court ruling carries no legitimacy... why, yes... it does!

BOOHOO....go whine to the Americans....because they don t give a rats what our courts think or what Canada thinks for that matter....he killed one of them fighting with the Taliban and that sucka's going to rot in Gitmo...rot i say...lol

Edited September 10, 2009 by wulf42

[Alex Moore]

BOOHOO....go whine to the Americans....because they don t give a rats what our courts think or what Canada thinks for that matter....he killed one of them fighting with the Taliban and that sucka's going to rot in Gitmo...rot i say...lol

Agreed

[wulf42]

Agreed

Nice to know other Canadians feel the same...............!!

btw-welcome to the Forum.......

[waldo]

BOOHOO....go whine to the Americans....because they don t give a rats what our courts think or what Canada thinks for that matter....he killed one of them fighting with the Taliban and that sucka's going to rot in Gitmo...rot i say...lol

as stated previously, initial steps between the U.S. and Canada have been taken to help facilitate the repatriation process... it would appear the official request is the only outstanding impediment. Obama has pledged to close Guantanamo - and he's recently reaffirmed that intent... significant resistance exists within the U.S. to move/house any of the Guantanamo detainees within mainland U.S. - of course, the U.S. would respond positively to a Canadian repatriation request.

clearly you are befuddled with the prospect of an opportunity to have Khadr tried within the Canadian Justice system... to have the possibility of actually giving the court of wulf42's guilty ruling real legitimacy.

[Guest American Woman]

I'll say again that I cannot understand why people want this family protected by Canadian courts.

When I listen to the videos of his family, it amazes me that a Canadian family is talking this way. His sister even talks as if Omar killed the soldier, or at least as if it wouldn't matter if he did: "They're shooting at him. Why can't he shoot at you? If you killed three, why can't he kill one? Why is it, why does nobody say you killed three of his friends? Why does everybody say you killed an American soldier? Big deal."

If she seriously can't understand the difference between "three of his friends," who are the enemy of Canadian soldiers who are over there fighting for their country, and "an American soldier," who is Canada's ally -- as they live in Canada -- then there's something terribly wrong.

So what if Omar killed an ally? "Big deal."

Then there's his brother's take on the situation: "When he's alright again he'll find them again. Take his revenge."

It's chilling to listen to these interviews. I know this much-- if I were a Canadian, I'd have pretty strong feelings about this going on in my country. And I'm not a Bush supporter. I'm a Democrat. A Liberal. That seems to make a difference to some on both sides of this issue. Liberals seem to think only hard-ass Bush supporters feel this way and Conservatives seem to think all "bleeding heart liberals" are defending him/this family.

I can say with certainty that I'm sure glad this family doesn't live in my country and I'm sure glad my country will never allow them entry.

[wyly]

-flimsy,tainted and likely fabricated evidence, torture, years without trial...even if guilty considering his age if he were in canada he'd be coming up for release by now...

real double standard here as well, US military has killed thousands upon thousands of innocents in Iraq and Afghanistan and not a charge laid anywhere...Kadr is being made a scapegoat for not capturing Osama...