Canada's economy

Bonam · August 12, 2009

One thing that worries me and I will use my brother as an example hes a mechanical engineer and the outfit he works for only hired him because they have a quota of Canadians that they need to employ so all he does really is sit with his fingure up his butt all day. They have lots of work and jobs and they are all going to foreign workers they say they have more of a tallent pool to choose from , wich makes sense population wise if you compair Canada and China your going to find more smart brains in China. But what does that do for Canadians looking for jobs. And now with the proposed MOBILIZED labor scheduled by 2012 it means they won't be forced to secure any Canadian jobs so hows this going to fair with our economy?

I guess we'd better start turning out some smarter engineers? The solution is not protectionism but competitiveness. Create schools (elementary and high) that promote and attract students with aptitudes and interests in the technical fields, Improve university programs, provide more scholarships, etc.

Then again, most of Canada's smartest brains probably go to the US anyway, as they can make far more money there, while participating in far more interesting projects.

Riverwind · August 12, 2009

They have lots of work and jobs and they are all going to foreign workers they say they have more of a tallent pool to choose from

Get real. The only reason these jobs are going to foreign outfits in China and other places is because they work for a fraction of what someone here gets paid. If your brother is sitting on his butt it is because they probably decided that a team working in different languages and timezones was too difficult to manage and it has nothing to do with the relative skill of people involved.

Riverwind · August 12, 2009

Then again, most of Canada's smartest brains probably go to the US anyway, as they can make far more money there, while participating in far more interesting projects.

That used to be the case but times are getting tough in the US as companies shutdown their R&D centers and move them overseas. In the meantime we have companies like Microsoft opening offices in Vancouver because Canada makes it easier for them to hire workers from overseas and move them here.

Moonbox · August 12, 2009

What I am suggesting is that the system favours business, period.

There's pretty much no possible way to argue against this.

whowhere · August 12, 2009

There's pretty much no possible way to argue against this.

Thank You, There we have it. As I have been drumming on this forum we are victims of the Corrupt Conservatives who would prostitute their mothers if it meant more pension money and travel expenditures for them. All I can say is eye of the needle for these politicians. Prostituting their mothers isn't enough for these Sob's but enslaving their children to low wages and sub standard quality of life is icing on their cake.

Canada is a failed country and a joke to the world.

M.Dancer · August 12, 2009

Canada is a failed country and a joke to the world.

There's a joke alright....but it ain't Canada.

bush_cheney2004 · August 12, 2009

There's a joke alright....but it ain't Canada.

I guess he probably wouldn't like Somalia either ?

Craig1 · August 12, 2009

Get real. The only reason these jobs are going to foreign outfits in China and other places is because they work for a fraction of what someone here gets paid. If your brother is sitting on his butt it is because they probably decided that a team working in different languages and timezones was too difficult to manage and it has nothing to do with the relative skill of people involved.

Nope ..... its the Canadian millitary that wants a Canadian doing the job but its such a small peice of what they do rest are all asians.

Riverwind · August 12, 2009

Nope ..... its the Canadian millitary that wants a Canadian doing the job but its such a small peice of what they do rest are all asians.

You missed my point. The rest are asians because of cost - nothing more. If the asians expected to get paid what a Canadian expects then they would have likely done all of the work in Canada.

August1991 · August 12, 2009

EMH is nothing more than a pointy headed academic theory that only people who don't understand markets believe in (and to academic's credit - it appears that even few of them believe in it but, to their discredit, they still teach this crap in finance 101 - I remember being taught this years ago and thinking at that time it was crap).

And that's why broad index funds beat almost everyone except those people who spend hours looking for small discrepancies, or those who are lucky for a year or two and then blow up.

If financial markets aren't efficient, then they are inefficient in a random way.

Once again folks are trying to compare apples to oranges. The tax load on a private citizen, an individual tax payer, is in fact much higher than on self employed folks. Those folks who are getting paychecks suffer from with holding taxes and pay every two weeks and then must attempt to claw back funds from the government at the end of the year using the current tax regime. Self employed folks pay either annually or quarterly, and even then they deduct expenses to reduce their tax load. Employees have expenses too, but they can't claim them.
What I am suggesting is that the system favours business, period.

By your logic Jerry, many people must want to become self-employed because the benefits are better. Of course, if more people become self-employed, they inundate the market and this drives incomes for self-employed down. In the end, it is just as attractive (after tax) to be an employee or self-employed - assuming other intangibles such as working conditions are held constant.

One thing that worries me and I will use my brother as an example hes a mechanical engineer and the outfit he works for only hired him because they have a quota of Canadians that they need to employ so all he does really is sit with his fingure up his butt all day. They have lots of work and jobs and they are all going to foreign workers they say they have more of a tallent pool to choose from , wich makes sense population wise if you compair Canada and China your going to find more smart brains in China. But what does that do for Canadians looking for jobs. And now with the proposed MOBILIZED labor scheduled by 2012 it means they won't be forced to secure any Canadian jobs so hows this going to fair with our economy?

Oh cripes, this argument again.

Craig, I suppose that you are opposed to computers because they have made many slide-rule sliding engineers redundant too. Cheap Chinese engineers are like cheap computers. They do the same job as expensive Canadian jobs but for less money.

So Craig, should the federal government forbid the use of computers or require that all engineering firms keep at least one slide-rule using engineer on staff?

Riverwind · August 12, 2009

Craig, I suppose that you are opposed to computers because they have made many slide-rule sliding engineers redundant too. Cheap Chinese engineers are like cheap computers. They do the same job as expensive Canadian jobs but for less money.

Of course, this means the only way to compete when advanced service jobs like these go overseas is to lower the wage of Canadians doing these jobs. Unfortunately, that requires that everyone from minimum wage earners to civil servants take a big wage cut too because these people contribute to the high cost of living that makes it impossible for Canadians to do the jobs at the rates paid overseas.

I realize that some people seem to think that there will always be some magical skilled job category that will replace these kinds of of jobs, however, such arguments are not based on the current reality where everything from medical and legal services to business research and journalism can and is being done cheaper overseas.

Bottom line, the rich world's days as an island of wealth are coming to an end and within 50 years we will inevitablely have a society like india and china today where the masses of poor living at poverty levels provide cheap labour for their wealthy next door neighbors.

Bonam · August 12, 2009

Of course, this means the only way to compete when advanced service jobs like these go overseas is to lower the wage of Canadians doing these jobs. Unfortunately, that requires that everyone from minimum wage earners to civil servants take a big wage cut too because these people contribute to the high cost of living that makes it impossible for Canadians to do the jobs at the rates paid overseas.
I realize that some people seem to think that there will always be some magical skilled job category that will replace these kinds of of jobs, however, such arguments are not based on the current reality where everything from medical and legal services to business research and journalism can and is being done cheaper overseas.

Bottom line, the rich world's days as an island of wealth are coming to an end and within 50 years we will inevitablely have a society like india and china today where the masses of poor living at poverty levels provide cheap labour for their wealthy next door neighbors.

Only if we let it happen.

Craig1 · August 12, 2009

And that's why broad index funds beat almost everyone except those people who spend hours looking for small discrepancies, or those who are lucky for a year or two and then blow up.
If financial markets aren't efficient, then they are inefficient in a random way.

By your logic Jerry, many people must want to become self-employed because the benefits are better. Of course, if more people become self-employed, they inundate the market and this drives incomes for self-employed down. In the end, it is just as attractive (after tax) to be an employee or self-employed - assuming other intangibles such as working conditions are held constant.

Oh cripes, this argument again.

Craig, I suppose that you are opposed to computers because they have made many slide-rule sliding engineers redundant too. Cheap Chinese engineers are like cheap computers. They do the same job as expensive Canadian jobs but for less money.

So Craig, should the federal government forbid the use of computers or require that all engineering firms keep at least one slide-rule using engineer on staff?

Computers and slide-rules are you serious man? these are people. And what else this is a recesion so everyone is trying to go back to school or update their skills but see the shchools are full and turning people away.

Riverwind · August 12, 2009

Only if we let it happen.

It can't be stopped. Our standard of living has already depends on imports produced with cheap labour and without exports to the developing world our economy would have no little or no growth. Restrictive trade laws would simply reduce real wages by increasing the cost of living. i.e. the end result will be the same - the only difference is the path taken.

The US is adapting to this reality by making heavy use of illegal immigrant labour.

Edited August 12, 2009 by Riverwind

benny · August 12, 2009

A report out say Canada's economy isn't getting any better and the unemployed isn't either.

A good economy is defined by its GDP not at all by its job numbers.

Alta4ever · August 12, 2009

Of course, this means the only way to compete when advanced service jobs like these go overseas is to lower the wage of Canadians doing these jobs. Unfortunately, that requires that everyone from minimum wage earners to civil servants take a big wage cut too because these people contribute to the high cost of living that makes it impossible for Canadians to do the jobs at the rates paid overseas.
I realize that some people seem to think that there will always be some magical skilled job category that will replace these kinds of of jobs, however, such arguments are not based on the current reality where everything from medical and legal services to business research and journalism can and is being done cheaper overseas.

Bottom line, the rich world's days as an island of wealth are coming to an end and within 50 years we will inevitablely have a society like india and china today where the masses of poor living at poverty levels provide cheap labour for their wealthy next door neighbors.

There is its called the trades.

benny · August 12, 2009

There is its called the trades.

Dumping rather.

Riverwind · August 12, 2009

There is its called the trades.

Really? And who will be paying the trades people? We need to import a lot of goods to maintain our standard of living. This requires that we export something to pay for the imports. Without those income generating exporters those trades people have no work.

benny · August 12, 2009

Really? And who will be paying the trades people? We need to import a lot of goods to maintain our standard of living. This requires that we export something to pay for the imports. Without those income generating exporters those trades people have no work.

An equilibrium is a solution, not a problem.

Alta4ever · August 13, 2009

Really? And who will be paying the trades people? We need to import a lot of goods to maintain our standard of living. This requires that we export something to pay for the imports. Without those income generating exporters those trades people have no work.

Advanced service jobs export nothing, they are providing service to canadians, if those jobs move over seas then find one that won't the trades can't be outsourced.

Riverwind · August 13, 2009

Advanced service jobs export nothing, they are providing service to canadians, if those jobs move over seas then find one that won't the trades can't be outsourced.

Really? RIM exports nothing? Nortel? How about Electronic Arts or Bombardier?.

Services are export jobs if they are selling to foreigners and almost every engineer in Canada that works for a private company is developing services for export.

The only jobs that can't outsourced those which are providing local services which are not for export. This means these jobs cannot generate the income required to purchase the imports we want/need.

Alta4ever · August 13, 2009

Really? RIM exports nothing? Nortel? How about Electronic Arts or Bombardier?.
Services are export jobs if they are selling to foreigners and almost every engineer in Canada that works for a private company is developing services for export.

The only jobs that can't outsourced those which are providing local services which are not for export. This means these jobs cannot generate the income required to purchase the imports we want/need.

What is exported is a peice of manufactured merchandise, those that actually build the product are manufacturing jobs

Riverwind · August 13, 2009

What is exported is a peice of manufactured merchandise, those that actually build the product are manufacturing jobs

RIM outsources its manufacturing now. The revenue that RIM brings back to Canada will depend entirely on its ability to generate revenue with services.

msj · August 13, 2009

Thank You, There we have it.

Yes, there is no way to argue against this nonsense position.

Kind of like arguing against the birthers position or trusting Bernie Madoff - it depends on who, or how crazy, one is.... :lol:

Alta4ever · August 13, 2009

RIM outsources its manufacturing now. The revenue that RIM brings back to Canada will depend entirely on its ability to generate revenue with services.

So they are exporting nothing.