Muslim Honor Killing in Kingston

[guyser]

it didn't sound as obviously open-and-shut as e.g. the Rodney King case, say.

Is that sarcasm or just a funny ? Rodney King was anything but open and shut.

[Evening Star]

This Winnipeg Free Press article summarizes the contents of a wire tap on the family, and a laptop search:

We always heard about those things. Were you mentioning them as examples of strong evidence or as typical media coverage of this? I don't think e.g. a record of Google searches for "where to commit a murder" sounds like overwhelmingly compelling evidence.

[capricorn]

I have not concluded that there was not enough evidence, only that it is thin.

Sorry ft, I jumped the gun and that was poor wording on my part.

The worst of it is the scraps of healight at the crime scene(if that is whwere they were actually killed, nobody escept the killers knows). The sons explanation is laughable, and his later explanation of an accident and attempted escue is worse. But that does not in any way tie his parents to the scene or to the murders. I don't state they didn't all do it, but this case is missing some things.

Actually, there's evidence the parents were at the scene on that night. They admitted so on a police wiretap.

Police asked the three to come from Montreal so they could pick up some personal items that had been in the motel rooms that could now be released back to them. Police also suggested they go look at the scene with investigators, so they could explain how they thought the car had fallen into the water.

When they got there, police told them they had found a camera at the site, so they were going to analyze it and hope it had captured the car going into the water.

What Shafia, Yahya and Hamed didn’t know was that was a lie, a ruse designed to get them talking. What the Shafias also didn’t know was that during their visit to Kingston that day the police had bugged their minivan so they could intercept and record their conversations.

The camera trick worked. Shafia and Yahya talked the whole way back to Montreal, apparently quite concerned that if there was a camera it would show they had been there before. Hamed was mostly silent, though he curiously warns his parents only at the end of the long conversations that police could bug their car and secretly record their conversations.

“That night, there was no electricity there,” Shafia says. “It was pitch darkness. You remember, Tooba?”

“Yes,” she replies.

http://www.thestar.com/article/1123753--shafia-case-police-describe-how-the-killers-were-caught

[Guest American Woman]

I don't know if anyone has posted this links yet, but it's very informative:

Timeline: Shafia family murder trial

Edited January 31, 2012 by American Woman

[GostHacked]

Do you not find it odd that the car was in the canal with the lights and ignition turned off? How could they have driven off the road when the car wasn't even on? And since is was night time when they supposedly went for their joy ride, the lights would be on. Odd, too, that it appeared as if no one tried to escape through the open window - and the seats were pushed so far back that it would have been almost impossible to drive the car - and the opening that the car went through to go into the canal was such a tight squeeze that it was initially thought that the car was put there as a prank - until the bodies were found. And there were pieces of the smashed headlight on the SUV the Shafias drove at the sight where the car went into the canal. I don't see how anyone could think it was actually an accident. Odd, too, that while they were supposed to be in Niagara Falls there were calls from Kingston on their cell phone records. Also, even though they swore that all 10 family members were alive when they stopped for the night at the hotel, they only checked in for six people. And the searches for "murder" that showed up on their computer - I don't think the evidence was "light" at all; it was the result of 2 1/2 years of detailed investigation.

Some information from the CBC on a program tagged the son or the father's cell phone from Ottawa to Kingston. His cell phone has been traced from tower to tower to the crime sceene.

The car and it's location and the condition is key to the whole investigation. From what I understand you have to really work at it to get the car into the canal where it was located.

Two key points to the conviction in my view.

[capricorn]

Two key points to the conviction in my view.

You made good points GostHacked.

[Guest American Woman]

Some information from the CBC on a program tagged the son or the father's cell phone from Ottawa to Kingston. His cell phone has been traced from tower to tower to the crime sceene.

The car and it's location and the condition is key to the whole investigation. From what I understand you have to really work at it to get the car into the canal where it was located.

Two key points to the conviction in my view.

From what I've read, the missing headlight pieces from the Lexus being found where the Nissan was found was a key point, too.

[jbg]

Well, they have 25 years to contemplate the wisdom of their choice and now they can console themselves with the thought that they protected the family honor. After all, isn't it honorable to be classed as a convicted murderer, to be in prison for killing your daughters and of course your wife--(not first wife but only wife because bigamy is not legal in Canada) and then cursing their names for being Canadian girls who want a life apart from the life that oppressed people suffer in some countries.

The word is "honour", people! With a "u". Honour.

Sorry, just had to get that off my chest.

Tilter's spelling is just fine. He's typing in English, not Canadian.

[g_bambino]

Tilter's spelling is just fine. He's typing in English, not Canadian.

Har, har.

[Guest American Woman]

Tilter's spelling is just fine. He's typing in English, not Canadian.

Actually, "honour" is "English" while "honor" is American.

[jbg]

Actually, "honour" is "English" while "honor" is American.

If you listened to their PM between late 1993 and late 2003 they don't speak English up there.

[Evening Star]

Actually, "honour" is "English" while "honor" is American.

I was fighting the temptation to say the same thing, albeit more snarkily.

[jbg]

I was fighting the temptation to say the same thing, albeit more snarkily.

I repeat my last comment on Chretien's speaking Canadian.

[Guest Peeves]

http://ca.news.yahoo.com/inside-look-shafia-case-police-tell-killers-were-202627691.html

Seems they were pretty stupid murderers.

Have you read where the first wife's family got threats for testifying against the murders.

So much for this cultures respect for life and Canada's laws.

The most ridiculous claim of all was their denial of ever knowing of any "Honor Killings" in Islamic families.

[Black Dog]

I repeat my last comment on Chretien's speaking Canadian.

And you've repeated that comment about eight million times since you've joined this board.

Get. A. New. Joke.

[DogOnPorch]

I repeat my last comment on Chretien's speaking Canadian.

He was big on Elk Hair...always going on about the Elk Hair.

[g_bambino]

So much for this cultures respect for life and Canada's laws.

Three people constitute a culture?

[Michael Hardner]

Have you read where the first wife's family got threats for testifying against the murders.

So much for this cultures respect for life and Canada's laws.

Associating it with a culture is one thing, but what is the link exactly ? Culture is a factor in all behavior. Angry and violent people will justify their behavior within their culture and all people do this, so how does it help us to point these out ?

The most ridiculous claim of all was their denial of ever knowing of any "Honor Killings" in Islamic families.

What does 'knowing of' mean though ? Have they known any people who have done this ? If it means anything else, though, yes I agree it's hard to believe them.

[Guest Manny]

Afghan Embassy speaks out against Shafia murders

The Afghan Embassy in Ottawa is condemning the murders of four members of a Montreal family originally from Afghanistan.

In a statement released Tuesday, the embassy calls the deaths of the three teenaged sisters and their father's first wife "a heinous crime against humanity."

The embassy says this kind of crime is not part of Afghan or Islamic culture and "is not acceptable in any way."

"There is nothing honourable about violence against anyone, especially against innocent women. Honour killing is unacceptable in (the) Afghanistan Constitution and its justice system," the statement reads.

They ought to know.

[jbg]

And you've repeated that comment about eight million times since you've joined this board.

I give up. What was he speaking? Or what does he speak? Though I'll admit that someone I know has heard him speaking perfect English but that was in San Fransisco. That gives weight to the argument that he speaks another language in his own country.

[g_bambino]

What was he speaking?

English with a thick French accent. Or, maybe at times Franglais.

What language do you think thick accented people from Louisiana or Texas speak?

[Guest Peeves]

Three people constitute a culture?

You are being rather thick. They are indeed part of a culture. Understand?

[Guest Peeves]

Associating it with a culture is one thing, but what is the link exactly ? Culture is a factor in all behavior. Angry and violent people will justify their behavior within their culture and all people do this, so how does it help us to point these out ?

*************************************************************

Yes culture is a factor in all behavior, but from place to place, tribe or sect, clan or a social group customs differ.

I point it out as a factor in a cultural practice (Murder in this case) that is brought here and elsewhere as unacceptable baggage from a foreign country by immigrants that resist assimilation by their children of our customs and culture AND laws.

FGM, polygamy, honor killing, wife murdering for dowry (India), wearing a burka, etc. are not religious matters, they are customs of certain cultures

" : the customary beliefs, social forms, and material traits of a racial, religious, or social group; also : the characteristic features of everyday existence (as diversions or a way of life} shared by people in a place or time <popular culture> <southern culture> c : the set of shared attitudes, values, goals, and practices that characterizes an institution or organization <a corporate culture focused on the bottom line> d : the set of values, conventions, or social practices associated with a particular field, activity, or societal characteristic <studying the effect of computers on print culture> <changing the culture of materialism will take time "

"What does 'knowing of' mean though ? Have they known any people who have done this ? If it means anything else, though, yes I agree it's hard to believe them."

Now you are being obtuse.

I believe you know full well that any adult from Afghanistan especially these that have lived in several Muslim countries where the 'honor murder' practice is quite common, would be fully familiar with the practice. The proof of course being their premeditated plans to carry an honor killing out.

Similarly in interviews their relatives were of the same mind should a man's honor be besmirched.

The numbers of Honor killings in Afghanistan are probably in the hundreds yearly, increasing since 2007.

http://www.unl.edu/rhames/courses/212/readings/honor-kil-ng.pdf

Edited February 1, 2012 by Peeves

[Guest Peeves]

Afghan Embassy speaks out against Shafia murders

The Afghan Embassy in Ottawa is condemning the murders of four members of a Montreal family originally from Afghanistan.

In a statement released Tuesday, the embassy calls the deaths of the three teenaged sisters and their father's first wife "a heinous crime against humanity."

The embassy says this kind of crime is not part of Afghan or Islamic culture and "is not acceptable in any way."

"There is nothing honourable about violence against anyone, especially against innocent women. Honour killing is unacceptable in (the) Afghanistan Constitution and its justice system," the statement reads.

They ought to know.

I would expect any embassy spokesperson from any country where the practice is occurring to deny it in the way they did.

while it may be 'unacceptable' to the government, it is taking place and is a common enough custom in some cultures both in Arab and Indian and others.

While not acceptable it is condoned in some families as the Shafia and others here.

http://www.unl.edu/r...onor-kil-ng.pdf

Edited February 2, 2012 by Peeves

[Michael Hardner]

"What does 'knowing of' mean though ? Have they known any people who have done this ? If it means anything else, though, yes I agree it's hard to believe them."

Now you are being obtuse.

Not at all. If someone asks me if I "know of" a crime, I may say truthfully that I don't. Without context it's hard to tell.

I point it out as a factor in a cultural practice (Murder in this case) that is brought here and elsewhere as unacceptable baggage from a foreign country by immigrants that resist assimilation by their children of our customs and culture AND laws.

FGM, polygamy, honor killing, wife murdering for dowry (India), wearing a burka, etc. are not religious matters, they are customs of certain cultures

What does that mean ? Murder happens everywhere, and for culturally specific reasons. Honour killing is wrong because it's killing.

There's no way to measure the worth of a culture as much as someone might like to do so. People aren't worse than others. Instead, people look at other cultures as inferior as a way of feeling better about themselves.