Muslim Honor Killing in Kingston

DogOnPorch · July 26, 2009

So sorry... The cross-burning and lynching and bombings and murders must have been a product of North America's collective imagination.

You're implying the KKK was a criminal organization. They weren't the Mafia. It was a White Supremist organization formed just after the US Civil War as a response to carpetbaggers. That it carried out numerous criminal acts is besides the point.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ku_Klux_Klan

CANADIEN · July 26, 2009

That is complete drivel. Tell me just where in this country family violence is supported by "many" in the broader community.
The difference is quite clear. Domestic violence is the action of one man or woman either driven to the edge, or habitually violent and usually alcoholic. Yes, some feral, jealous asshole might plot and stalk his ex-wife and eventually kill her, but it's still the crime of a lone person on the edge of sanity.

I guess what really gets me about this honour killing stuff is just how cold it is. It's not desperate individuals acting irrationally, it's groups of people acting in concert to discuss, plan and carry out the murder of family members, usually young girls, out of some insane idea that they've damaged the "family honour" because they were perhaps seen walking together with a male. I find that bizarre to the point of almost being inconceivable. And, in fact, I would not have believed it prior to my becoming acquainted with the barbarism of Muslim behaviour.

And after they kill her, the community quietly congratulates them on assuaging their family honour and repairing its damage. Unbelievable.

Would it really surprise anyone if this clown gets a visit from his local imam who tells him that he's done the right thing in God's eyes?

What you described is an insane way of thinking. That a significant proportion of people in a given society does not change this.

Which makes the quick rush to qualify spousal violence in Western society as insane without looking at societal attitudes about women all the more troubling (not, of course, to claim that you or anybody who do that dismiss the seriousness of spousal abuse). Saying "he was on the edge of insanity" or "just drunk" is just too easy. In almost every case, there is a pattern, of using violence as a way of control. The bursts of violence does not hide how cold and profoundly inhumane the whole thing is. And it is fed by notions on the place, the role and the rights of women that are more present in our society than one would admit...

Search around enough on a Sunday, and you will find preachers who tell wives the Bible order them to obey their husbands. Social Conservative groups advocate policies based on the notion that the place of a woman is it home. More boys that one would think grow up believing women are objects, a notion too often reinforced in publicity.

Of course, I would never claim that this amount to societal endorsement of violence against women. But how often do we still here people saying of a rape victim "she must done something wrong"?

.

CANADIEN · July 26, 2009

You're implying the KKK was a criminal organization. They weren't the Mafia. It was a White Supremist organization formed just after the US Civil War as a response to carpetbaggers. That it carried out numerous criminal acts is besides the point.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ku_Klux_Klan

It WAS a criminal organization. A group of people who form together to commit crimes is criminal in nature, and no less bbecause the purpose is not monetary profit.

By your definition then, al-Quaeda is not a criminal organization? To me it is.

DogOnPorch · July 26, 2009

It WAS a criminal organization. A group of people who form together to commit crimes is criminal in nature, and no less bbecause the purpose is not monetary profit.
By your definition then, al-Quaeda is not a criminal organization? To me it is.

A group of kids selling lemonaide without a business licence is a 'criminal organization', then. You may want to play the semantics game, but that doesn't change the fact that the KKK wasn't formed for the purpose of commiting crimes.

Of course, I would never claim that this amount to societal endorsement of violence against women. But how often do we still here people saying of a rape victim "she must done something wrong"?

Never for me. But, I'm sure you can find a cite for that incredible claim. Right?

CANADIEN · July 26, 2009

A group of kids selling lemonaide without a business licence is a 'criminal organization', then. You may want to play the semantics game

Selling lemonade withtout a license is covered by legislation, but not the Criminal Code.

but that doesn't change the fact that the KKK wasn't formed for the purpose of commiting crimes

It was indeed created for the specific purpose of committing crimes.

Never for me.

Good for you.

But, I'm sure you can find a cite for that incredible claim. Right?

Of course everyone who holds that kind of opinion go public. But how do you think rapists justify their crimes to themselves? "she was asking for it". Until a few years back, it was permissible for defence lawyers to question rape victims about their sexual life; some defense lawyers were all too willing to use it to smear the victim. That's sufficent indication there are people who still think that way.

Jerry J. Fortin · July 26, 2009

It would seem to me that this thread is headed off on a tangent. Murder is a crime, period. Call it a crime of passion if you will, call it a religious crime if you will, call it anything you want but in this nation it is still murder. That is what the charge is, murder. No question about the law, and no question about the alleged perpetrator. This is an open and shut case. Delving into the religious aspects and political immigration aspects does little to add to the case, and amounts to nothing in determining guilt. Hold the damned trial and convict the guilty party and be done with it.

This is how you screw up a society by mitigating the facts and confusing the issues. There is only one issue here, it isn't that complicated at all.

benny · July 26, 2009

Given the opportunity, I'd be proud to have attempted to defend these girls. Honored, even.
With 2 years of boxing and 20 years of judo at my command, I'm confident that I would turn that fat old bastard's face into a crimson mask of anguish.

However, protecting someone from murder is about as opposite as it gets to the sort of "honor killing" being discussed.

Honor killing is about keeping a blood line alive and policemen are putting their lives on the line.

kimmy · July 26, 2009

Honor killing is about keeping a blood line alive

false

and policemen are putting their lives on the line.

and irrelevant.

-k

DogOnPorch · July 26, 2009

Selling lemonade withtout a license is covered by legislation, but not the Criminal Code.

So? They're a group and they're breaking the law...thus, according to you, for the purpose of commiting a crime rather than selling a cool drink.

It was indeed created for the specific purpose of committing crimes.

Again...you're confusing cause with effect.

Good for you.

So you have heard people say 'she deserved to be raped'. Where?

Of course everyone who holds that kind of opinion go public. But how do you think rapists justify their crimes to themselves? "she was asking for it". Until a few years back, it was permissible for defence lawyers to question rape victims about their sexual life; some defense lawyers were all too willing to use it to smear the victim. That's sufficent indication there are people who still think that way.

I don't know how a particular rapist justifies his crimes and neither do you.

benny · July 26, 2009

false

True rather. Honor killing is linked to the "selfish" gene.

kimmy · July 26, 2009

True rather. Honor killing is linked to the "selfish" gene.

Killing one's own daughters is demonstrably in opposition to the goal of preserving one's bloodline. Only an idiot of the highest order would argue otherwise.

-k

benny · July 26, 2009

Killing one's own daughters is demonstrably in opposition to the goal of preserving one's bloodline. Only an idiot of the highest order would argue otherwise.
-k

Genetics is a science about fractions.

kimmy · July 26, 2009

Genetics is a science about fractions.

And toasters toast toast.

-k

benny · July 26, 2009

And toasters toast toast.
-k

toasts

kimmy · July 26, 2009

toasts

The plural of "toast" is "toast". It is a paradox, a recursive riddle that I am sure will keep you fascinated for hours.

-k

Shady · July 26, 2009

a recursive riddle that I am sure will keep you fascinated for hours.

It's funny cause it's true. :lol:

lily · July 26, 2009

Toasters don't make toast out of toast.

They make toast out of bread.

bush_cheney2004 · July 26, 2009

The plural of "toast" is "toast". It is a paradox, a recursive riddle that I am sure will keep you fascinated for hours.

Not necessarily.....If I honor someone as a toaster, I can make many toasts. :rolleyes:

CANADIEN · July 26, 2009

So? They're a group and they're breaking the law...thus, according to you, for the purpose of commiting a crime rather than selling a cool drink.

Wonderful logic. If I say that selling emonade without a license is not acrime, then i must be saying it is a crime. :lol:

Illegal acts are not by defination criminal acts. A cyclist who burns a right light has violated the law (and he's an idiot), but there is nothing in the Criminal Code about it.

]Again...you're confusing cause with effect.

Nope, i am calling a crime a crime, and organizations that commit crimes as a core activity criminal organizations.

So you have heard people say 'she deserved to be raped'. Where?

I don't know how a particular rapist justifies his crimes and neither do you.

Where did I hear it? Clubs actually (way back when, mind you). And even a family reunion once. But once does not need to actually hear it to know some people hold that thought.

But if you still think nobody in this society, rapists or otherwise, think that, don't read the following:

Bill O'Reilly, Fox host, about a rape/murder victim:
Now Moore, Jennifer Moore, 18, on her way to college. She was 5-foot-2, 105 pounds, wearing a miniskirt and a halter top with a bare midriff. Now, again, there you go. So every predator in the world is gonna pick that up at two in the morning. She’s walking by herself on the West Side Highway, and she gets picked up by a thug. All right. Now she’s out of her mind, drunk link

This gem from England:
Ministers have ordered an inquiry after it emerged that rape victims have had their state compensation slashed because they were drunk at the time.

Officials at the Criminal Injury Compensation Authority told women their drinking was a ' contributing factor' in their ordeal.

The standard taxpayer-funded payouts of £11,000 were cut by as much as a quarter.

The rules of the CICA scheme allow payments to be reduced in cases where victims are partly to blame - such as by provoking an attacker. link

From a former Colorado state lawmaker, when 4 women accused college football players of raping them, in 2001:
"The question I have for the ladies in this is why they are going to parties like this and drinking or taking drugs and putting themselves in a very threatening or serious position?"link

From a poll done By Amnesty International in the UK in 2005:
(...)more than a quarter (26%) of those asked said that they thought a women was partially or totally responsible for being raped if she was wearing sexy or revealing clothing, and more than one in five (22%) held the same view if a woman had had many sexual partners. link

kimmy · July 26, 2009

Where did I hear it? Clubs actually (way back when, mind you). And even a family reunion once. But once does not need to actually hear it to know some people hold that thought.
But if you still think nobody in this society, rapists or otherwise, think that, don't read the following:

Well it just makes sense. After all, "If you take out uncovered meat and place it outside on the street, or in the garden or in the park, or in the backyard without a cover, and the cats come and eat it ... whose fault is it, the cats or the uncovered meat? The uncovered meat is the problem."

-k

DogOnPorch · July 26, 2009

Pure semantics. You're claiming to be able to read minds and I say that's not possible.

Re: asking for it...if that's your case, the same could be said about men. Here's a little experiment: get yourself a big visible tatoo saying "Filthy Few" and step into your local chapter of the Hell's Angels. Report back with the results.

:lol:

Edited July 26, 2009 by DogOnPorch

CANADIEN · July 26, 2009

Pure semantics. You're claiming to be able to read minds and I say that's not possible.
Re: asking for it...if that's your case, the same could be said about men. Here's a little experiment: get yourself a big visible tatoo saying "Filthy Few" and step into your local chapter of the Hell's Angels. Report back with the results.

I do not claim to be able to read human mind. No need to be able to do that to come to the conclusion that, when a sizeable proportion of society believes a crime is justified, it's likely to include those who commit it.

Jerry J. Fortin · July 27, 2009

I do not claim to be able to read human mind. No need to be able to do that to come to the conclusion that, when a sizeable proportion of society believes a crime is justified, it's likely to include those who commit it.

Do you really think you can get Canadians to agree murder is justified in very damned many cases at all?

CANADIEN · July 27, 2009

Do you really think you can get Canadians to agree murder is justified in very damned many cases at all?

I do not think that, and if you believe I have said something of the kind, you need to learn how to read.

DogOnPorch · July 27, 2009

I do not claim to be able to read human mind. No need to be able to do that to come to the conclusion that, when a sizeable proportion of society believes a crime is justified, it's likely to include those who commit it.

Again...I've never heard anyone claim "women deserve rape". If asked, since we're reading minds today, the average Joe Sixpack is likely to curb stomp you for the mere suggestion.

Edited July 27, 2009 by DogOnPorch