"Birthers" movement problem for GOP

[lily]

So.... what IS the diffference then? They're both official gov't documents, right? So why would he need to produce a second one?

And were any other candidates ever required to produce theirs?

[CANADIEN]

Unfortunately for you, they are NOT the same thing. How difficult is it to have a staffer to make a photocopy of Obama's birth certificate, and end the conspiracy theory? Seriously??? What is the hold up of showing a common and ordinary documentation, in which everyone has. Except apparently the President of the United States. He only has a certificate of live birth. As oppose to a certificate of dead birth If such a thing exists. Again, it seems kind of orwellian.

You know, of course, that under State of Hawaii law, the "certificate of live birth" is the ONLY certification of a birth thaqt the State will issue, and only to the person named on the registration, right?

It only sounds orwellian to people who do not know what they are talking about. Barack Obama was issued a legal document certifying that, as far as the State of Hawaii is concerned, he was born in Hawaii. Conspiracy theorists, nut jobs and ignoramus think there's something fishy. I don't... and I'm not even a fan of the guy.

Edited July 24, 2009 by CANADIEN

[Shady]

You know, of course, that under State of Hawaii law, the "certificate of live birth" is the ONLY certification of a birth thaqt the State will issue, and only to the person named on the registration, right?

Which Hawaian state law are you referring to?

[CANADIEN]

Which Hawaian state law are you referring to?

Statute 338 of the State of Hawaii governs the registration of births through their certification. Amonf other things:

- it describes what a live birth is; simply put, it is a birth where the child shows signs of life once out of the mother

- it states that the filling of a certificate is proma facie proof of the birth

- it also states that certified copies of the certificate are legal proof of what is on the certificate

- and it finally states who a certified copy can or cannot be issued to.

*****

A certification of a live birth is a certification of birth - period.

Barack Obama requested, and obtain, a certified copy of his birth certificate, and it is in the form prescribedd by State law -- period.

No State employee can just go to the certificate, make a photocopy of it and make it publicly available to the public - period.

Barack Obama was born in the State of Hawaii - period.

Edited July 24, 2009 by CANADIEN

[punked]

Which Hawaian state law are you referring to?

According to both the state of Hawaii and the feds:

""The electronic record of the birth is what (the Health Department) now keeps on file in order to provide same-day certified copies at our help window for most requests," Okubo said.

Asked for more information about the short-form versus long-form birth documents, Okubo said the Health Department "does not have a short-form or long-form certificate."

"The birth certificate form has been modified over the years and decades to conform to national standards and models," she said.

Okubo also emphasized the certification form "contains all the information needed by all federal government agencies for transactions requiring a birth certificate."

She added that the U.S. Supreme Court has recognized the state's current certification of live birth "as an official birth certificate meeting all federal and other requirements."

http://www.starbulletin.com/columnists/kok...kokua_line.html

[punked]

Barack Obama requested, and obtain, a certified copy of his birth certificate, and it is in the form prescribedd by State law -- period.

No State employee can just go to the certificate, make a photocopy of it and make it publicly available to the public - period.

Barack Obama was born in the State of Hawaii - period.

Problem here is idiots don't slow down to find out why it is certificate of live birth. Hawaii went paperless in 2001 with its records and now only issues certificates of live birth yet I bet later on in this thread someone will say "why doesn't he show his actual birth certificate?" Well there it is. If you don't like the way the great state of Hawaii handles their birth certificates the great state of Hawaii probably wants you to go f yourself.

[Guthrie]

Unfortunately for you, they are NOT the same thing. How difficult is it to have a staffer to make a photocopy of Obama's birth certificate, and end the conspiracy theory? Seriously??? What is the hold up of showing a common and ordinary documentation, in which everyone has. Except apparently the President of the United States. He only has a certificate of live birth. As oppose to a certificate of dead birth If such a thing exists. Again, it seems kind of orwellian.

Yes, keep it up; this is exactly the position I hope the, 'Birthers,' maintain for the next seven years - rotflmao

[Smallc]

Yes, keep it up; this is exactly the position I hope the, 'Birthers,' maintain for the next seven years - rotflmao

Exactly. The more the GOP and people like Shady focus on the unimportant, the more people fail to notice anything important that happens.

[jdobbin]

It is kind of odd that Obama won't release his actual birth certificate, and instead, released his certificate of live birth, whatever that means. Sounds orwellian.

I think it is great that Republicans keep up the pressure. Let's see a united front on this one.

[CANADIEN]

It is kind of odd that Obama won't release his actual birth certificate, and instead, released his certificate of live birth, whatever that means. Sounds orwellian.

Actually, was is odd, and right out of Kafka, is the demand that Obama make public something he has ALREADY make public, a document issued by the State of Hawaii that legally proves he was born in the State of Hawaii.

[Shady]

Problem here is idiots don't slow down to find out why it is certificate of live birth. Hawaii went paperless in 2001 with its records and now only issues certificates of live birth

That's all well and good. But Obama was born long before 2001.

Anyhow, I don't believe that Obama isn't an American citizen. I just don't understand why he can't produce a document, that's 1000 times more common than a "certificate of live birth." Especially when all he has to do, is reach into his wallet, and have somebody make a quick photocopy, and he'd squash the birther movement like a bug.

He should have been issued a real birth certificate several decades ago.

[CANADIEN]

That's all well and good. But Obama was born long before 2001.

Anyhow, I don't believe that Obama isn't an American citizen. I just don't understand why he can't produce a document, that's 1000 times more common than a "certificate of live birth." Especially when all he has to do, is reach into his wallet, and have somebody make a quick photocopy, and he'd squash the birther movement like a bug.

He should have been issued a real birth certificate several decades ago.

Obviously, you do not understand, period.

The certificate of live birth is the legal name of the ONE document the State of Hwaii issues when a person born in that State requests a certified copy of the birth certificate created at the time of his/her birth and maintained as part of the State records. Obama has done more than make a quick photocopy, he has asked and obtained and MADE PUBLICLY AVAILABLE an official document issued by the State of Hawaii. Period.

[Shady]

Obviously, you do not understand, period.

The certificate of live birth is the legal name of the ONE document the State of Hwaii issues when a person born in that State requests a certified copy of the birth certificate created at the time of his/her birth and maintained as part of the State records. Obama has done more than make a quick photocopy, he has asked and obtained and MADE PUBLICLY AVAILABLE an official document issued by the State of Hawaii. Period.

You're wrong. Obama has a birth certificate. It's sealed. And he won't release it. One has to wonder why?

[lily]

You're wrong. Obama has a birth certificate. It's sealed. And he won't release it. One has to wonder why?

*ahem*

Proof?

[Shady]

*ahem*

Proof?

B. That October 31, 2008 statement says that Dr. Fukino "ha personally seen and verified that the Hawai'i State Department of Health has Sen. Obama's original birth certificate on record in accordance with state policies and procedures." That statement does not, however, verify that Obama was born in Hawaii, and as explained above, under Hawaiian policies and procedures it is quite possible that Hawaii may have a birth record of a person not born in Hawaii. Unlikely, but possible.

C. The document that the Obama campaign released to the public is a certified copy of Obama's birth record, which is not the best evidence since, even under Hawaiian law, the original vault copy is the better evidence. Presumably, the vault record would show whether his birth was registered by a hospital in Hawaii.

Link

[lily]

So... contrary to what everyone says, Obama still might not be a citizen because some website says so?

I'm sorry, but that site appears to be a blog, or similar. THat doesn't really constitute any proof for me. It's just some guy's opinion.

[Shady]

Obama's birth certificate sealed by Hawaii governor

HONOLULU, Hawaii – Although the legitimacy of Sen. Barack Obama's birth certificate has become a focus of intense speculation – and even several lawsuits – WND has learned that Hawaii's Gov. Linda Lingle has placed the candidate's birth certificate under seal and instructed the state's Department of Health to make sure no one in the press obtains access to the original document under any circumstances.

The governor's office officially declined a request made in writing by WND in Hawaii to obtain a copy of the hospital-generated original birth certificate of Barack Obama.

Link

[lily]

Obama's birth certificate sealed by Hawaii governor

HONOLULU, Hawaii – Although the legitimacy of Sen. Barack Obama's birth certificate has become a focus of intense speculation – and even several lawsuits – WND has learned that Hawaii's Gov. Linda Lingle has placed the candidate's birth certificate under seal and instructed the state's Department of Health to make sure no one in the press obtains access to the original document under any circumstances.

The governor's office officially declined a request made in writing by WND in Hawaii to obtain a copy of the hospital-generated original birth certificate of Barack Obama.

Link

well duh. that's the law. you can't just let anybody get a copy.

[CANADIEN]

You're wrong. Obama has a birth certificate. It's sealed. And he won't release it. One has to wonder why?

Wrong is a feeble description of what is gross ignorance on your part.

Here are FACTS:

The State of Hawaii Vital Statistics Act (HRS Chapter 338uses the following terms:

"birth certificate"" for the document created by State authorities when recording a birth, and kept among the State's records

"certified copies" for the document issued upon request of people authorized by law, that contains information from the birth certificate

(Note: terminology varies by jrisdiction; for example, the Ontario Vital Statistics Act (RSO 1990, chap. V-7) uses the terms registration and certificate instead, and the terms birth certificate and registration are both used to describe the same document in Chapter 46 of the General Laws of massachusetts.

If one checks the instructions for filing a request for a certified copy of a Hawaii birth certificate, he/she will notice that the only options offered are a letter of confirmation (yes, we have a registration) and a certified copies. Nowhere there is any mention of something like two distinc documents, called birth certificate and certificate of live birth. there is only ONE type of certified copy provided by the State of Hawaii, and tht title on that document is "Certification of live birth".

Rumours that Obama's birth certificate (that is the original document held by State of Hawaii) hyas been sealed were debunked by Chiyome Fukino, director of the State's Health Department (responsible for vital statistics), who stated the State Governor (who happened to also be the chair of John McCain's campaign in the State) had not ordered that Obama's certificate be handled differently than other certificates (view Seattle Times article.

*****

The State of Hawaii does NOT issue "long form birth certificates", only certified copies like the one Barack Obama obtained and made public. It does NOT issue photocopies of the records in their custody. Like any other jurisfiction, it does NOT provides access to the original record until a number of years have elapsed (in Ontario, the original birth registrations become publicly available (on microfilm) after 97 years).

Considering this, can someone provide even a semi-logical explanation of how Obama could hold or obtain a government document that the government will not issue to him?

If there is any record sealed, can anyone show by whom, and under which authority? Blogs do not count. I am talking about a regulation, directive, court order, etc., with the actual reference.

Edited July 25, 2009 by CANADIEN

[CANADIEN]

well duh. that's the law. you can't just let anybody get a copy.

Of course, shady is free to prove you wrong and that any "journalist" can obtain any long form birth certificate of any individual just by asking the government. For example, he could try to ask for his wife's birth long form. Unless he can prove that he has her written permission or power of attorney, they will say no.

[CANADIEN]

B. That October 31, 2008 statement says that Dr. Fukino "ha personally seen and verified that the Hawai'i State Department of Health has Sen. Obama's original birth certificate on record in accordance with state policies and procedures." That statement does not, however, verify that Obama was born in Hawaii, and as explained above, under Hawaiian policies and procedures it is quite possible that Hawaii may have a birth record of a person not born in Hawaii. Unlikely, but possible.

C. The document that the Obama campaign released to the public is a certified copy of Obama's birth record, which is not the best evidence since, even under Hawaiian law, the original vault copy is the better evidence. Presumably, the vault record would show whether his birth was registered by a hospital in Hawaii.

Link

Proof that you, and the morons at the American Thinker, do not know what you are talking about. OF COURSE the statement by Dr. Fukino does not say what is on the original borth certificate. To reveal that information from anyone's bieth record would have constituted a violation of Hawaii Vital Statistics Act (HRS 338), the State's Code of Conduct for public employees and official (HRS 84), codes of ethics and confidentiality provisions governing the medical profession (she's a docteur, after all).

Government employees anywhere in the USA and Canada are FORBIDDEN from revealing what is on an individual birth, marriage or death registration, unless in the form and to the people mentioned by law and regulation. Feel free to show me any state or provincial law that would authorize a government employee to tell the press the content of an individual's birth registration.

As for the part about the certification not being as good as the certificate, here's what the LAW actually says

§338-13 Certified copies. (a) Subject to the requirements of sections 338-16, 338-17, and 338-18, the department of health shall, upon request, furnish to any applicant a certified copy of any certificate, or the contents of any certificate, or any part thereof.

(b ) Copies of the contents of any certificate on file in the department, certified by the department shall be considered for all purposes the same as the original, subject to the requirements of sections 338-16, 338-17, and 338-18.

(c )Copies may be made by photography, dry copy reproduction, typing, computer printout or other process approved by the director of health. [L 1949, c 327, §17; RL 1955, §57-16; am L Sp 1959 2d, c 1, §19; HRS §338-13; am L 1978, c 49, §1]

Believe what the American Thinker says about the law, I will believe the law itself.

Edited July 25, 2009 by CANADIEN

[CANADIEN]

Obama's birth certificate sealed by Hawaii governor

HONOLULU, Hawaii – Although the legitimacy of Sen. Barack Obama's birth certificate has become a focus of intense speculation – and even several lawsuits – WND has learned that Hawaii's Gov. Linda Lingle has placed the candidate's birth certificate under seal and instructed the state's Department of Health to make sure no one in the press obtains access to the original document under any circumstances.

The governor's office officially declined a request made in writing by WND in Hawaii to obtain a copy of the hospital-generated original birth certificate of Barack Obama.

Link

Feel free to scroll up a few posts to where I posted a link to a statement about this. A statement that clearly states that the Obama birth certificate was not treated any differently from any other certificate..

Besides, had the WND peddlers of non-sense checked their facts, they would have found that, to start with, birth certificates in the State of Hawaii are not issued by the Governor's office.

Edited July 25, 2009 by CANADIEN

[Malaclypse the Younger]

Why not release all of the documents in question and put a stop to it, allowing it to fester doesn't help anyone.

Because if he did, they'd just say it was a forgery. This is the same tactic that racists have been using since before the end of segregation to back people they don't like into a corner. Frankly, I think Barack Obama has better things to do with his time than entertain a bunch of racist crackheads.

[CANADIEN]

Because if he did, they'd just say it was a forgery.

Indeed. Even if he could and did it, they would still call a forgery. After all, they have not hesitated to call a notice of birth placed by the State authorities in two local newspapers mere days after the birth a forgery.

This is the same tactic that racists have been using since before the end of segregation to back people they don't like into a corner. Frankly, I think Barack Obama has better things to do with his time than entertain a bunch of racist crackheads.

Now now, let's be fair here. The morons are not necessarily racists.

Edited July 25, 2009 by CANADIEN

[Guthrie]

QUOTE (Shady @ Jul 23 2009, 06:31 PM) *

Unfortunately for you, they are NOT the same thing. How difficult is it to have a staffer to make a photocopy of Obama's birth certificate, and end the conspiracy theory? Seriously??? What is the hold up of showing a common and ordinary documentation, in which everyone has. Except apparently the President of the United States. He only has a certificate of live birth. As oppose to a certificate of dead birth If such a thing exists. Again, it seems kind of orwellian.

...

Just last month, the Hawaii Department of Health confirmed to the Honolulu Star-Bulletin that the document is the only official record of the president's birth and proves he was born in that state.

But conspiracy theorists argue that the lack of an underlying paper document (the so-called long-form birth certificate) proves a cover-up.

That ignores multiple truths including this one: Hawaii's records, like those in many states, have gone electronic, and the certification document is accepted by both the state and national government as full proof of citizenship. To insist otherwise is to embrace the notion that thousands upon thousands of Hawaiians have obtained their U.S. passports, using similar documents, fraudulently.

...

LAtimes