Federal Funding of Gay Pride Parade

[Argus]

I love how this keeps getting trotted out. It wasn't anything to do with the Federal Party I'll remind you, but rather individuals within the Quebec wing. Your pal Gomery wrote a whole report on it, perhaps you should refresh your memory and read it.

Almost no one believes that the little people who were fingered were alone. I think the last time i saw a poll something like 70% of Canadians believed that both Martin and Chretien were fully in the loop the whole time, with the PMO interceding to allow things to continue despite the numerous violations of the public service rules. . And I am one of those who believes most senior Liberals, certainly those in and around Quebec, certainly Stephan Dion, were aware of it.

[Dave_ON]

I have never been to the Calgary stampede but it reminds me of a small town exhibition. Irritating to some but hardly a moral challenge to conventional wisdom.

Whether it is at odds with conventional "wisdom" is frankly immaterial. The fact remains the Calgary stampede is a frivolous, unnecessary and very niche parade. It's all a matter of perspective really.

IMHO, the State should not subsidize a sans-culotte, avant garde revolution, or any challenge to conventional wisdom.

(Dave, I suggest that you think about my argument.)

So basically maintain the status quo regardless of the cost? A woman not being allowed to vote was once conventional wisdom so too was owning slaves. The earth was flat and the sun revolved around the earth both were "facts" of "conventional wisdom" once upon a time. To me this indicates a trend that “conventional” does not of necessity equal “wisdom”.

I'm not sure where you're from August or of your age but I'd hardly call Toronto pride a sans-culotte, avant garde revolution. Perhaps this was an apt description nigh on 25 years ago, but in modern times it's hyperbole to say the least. Most of the attendees and participants are just regular people like you and me. All ages, races, religions and various back grounds. It's a celebration of diversity and the freedom of being who you are free from ridicule and contempt.

The fact is, they are on opposite sides.

Dress this pig up as you want, but some people oppose the "gay lifestyle" and gay marriage. There are two sides to this story.

They're not opposite sides in the least; the pride parade is a cultural and tourist event. Lifesite or whatever they're called is a political advocacy group that has no interest in promoting cultural or tourist events. They're promoting their values and that is all. If the government were to give them money, simply because they're giving it to the "gays" they would not see the anywhere near the same return on their investment.

Pride Toronto is about advocacy as well but it's not their sole reason d’être. The main difference is lifesites is fighting to limit the rights of others, pride Toronto is fighting to maintain and advance those same rights.

"... jumped through all the same hoops... "

This is the most terrifying idea. We now have a new criteria for governments to choose winners/losers: Can supplicants of taxpayer money "jump through the hoops"?

Russia's monarchy collapsed because the czar handed out money using a similar system.

Not sure where you've been the last 50 or so years but this isn't new in the least. The government has been handing out grants like this for decades. Not just anyone who asks for cash gets it. You have to have criteria setup to ensure it's a good investment and the return, whether monetary or otherwise you get for your investment is sufficient. Oddly enough we're still here these many years later.

Contrary to social conservative "conventional wisdom" Gays are not responsible for all the ills of society. Sure they'd love to blame them for everything from corrupting the youth to break down of hetero marriages everywhere and the lion's share of the national debt. Reality is this isn't the case. Because you disagree with something or don't understand it, doesn't mean it is bereft of value; especially when that value, over and above the cultural contributions, can be measured in dollars and cents.

[madmax]

Almost no one believes that the little people who were fingered were alone. I think the last time i saw a poll something like 70%

63% of all polls are ....... LOL

[benny]

Almost no one believes that the little people who were fingered were alone. I think the last time i saw a poll something like 70% of Canadians believed that both Martin and Chretien were fully in the loop the whole time, with the PMO interceding to allow things to continue despite the numerous violations of the public service rules. . And I am one of those who believes most senior Liberals, certainly those in and around Quebec, certainly Stephan Dion, were aware of it.

Chretien pride parade: "I am fully convinced that our national unity strategy was necessary and right ...Sponsorship was conceived in good faith, its objectives were noble," (former prime minister Jean Chrétien said in an opening statement at the Gomery inquiry).

[August1991]

Russia's monarchy collapsed because of Lenin's adaptation of Marxism to a feudal regime.

Russia's Czarist regime ultimately collapsed because the Czar decided to hand out "taxpayer" money to people who had "jumped through hoops".

When a society hands out alot of money the Czarist way, the State is in trouble.

Not sure where you've been the last 50 or so years but this isn't new in the least. The government has been handing out grants like this for decades. Not just anyone who asks for cash gets it. You have to have criteria setup to ensure it's a good investment and the return, whether monetary or otherwise you get for your investment is sufficient. Oddly enough we're still here these many years later.

Ugh, and view my comment above.

So basically maintain the status quo regardless of the cost?

The State should not subsidize or even encourage a questioning of the State. First of all, it's the State. Second of all, it corrupts the question.

Dave, let me put this possibly in terms that you'll understand: If the gay parade takes federal money, it's gone mainstream. And if it's gone mainstream, it's no longer questioning the status quo. (I think the term is co-opted, or "bought".)

They're not opposite sides in the least; the pride parade is a cultural and tourist event. Lifesite or whatever they're called is a political advocacy group that has no interest in promoting cultural or tourist events. They're promoting their values and that is all. If the government were to give them money, simply because they're giving it to the "gays" they would not see the anywhere near the same return on their investment.

Pride Toronto is about advocacy as well but it's not their sole reason d’être. The main difference is lifesites is fighting to limit the rights of others, pride Toronto is fighting to maintain and advance those same rights.

Advocacy? Gay pride, lifesite? Your call.

Contrary to social conservative "conventional wisdom" Gays are not responsible for all the ills of society. Sure they'd love to blame them for everything from corrupting the youth to break down of hetero marriages everywhere and the lion's share of the national debt. Reality is this isn't the case. Because you disagree with something or don't understand it, doesn't mean it is bereft of value; especially when that value, over and above the cultural contributions, can be measured in dollars and cents.

Dave, so you're gay or you want to defend the rights of gays.

Fine.

In my view, gay people are like left-handed people. I don't see left-handed people asking for federal money to organize parades or to educate right-handed people about how left-handed people are oppressed.

Instead, I see another Leftist "oppressed" group inventing a reason for special treatment, and taxpayer money.

Edited July 9, 2009 by August1991

[ToadBrother]

In my view, gay people are like left-handed people. I don't see left-handed people asking for federal money to organize parades or to educate right-handed people about how left-handed people are oppressed.

Instead, I see another Leftist "oppressed" group inventing a reason for special treatment, and taxpayer money.

That's right, civil liberties are just so "Leftist". Good, god-fearing Conservatives despise anyone else getting a piece of the cake, because Jesus only loves Libertarians and Corporate whores.

[capricorn]

Pride Toronto is about advocacy as well but it's not their sole reason d’être. The main difference is lifesites is fighting to limit the rights of others, pride Toronto is fighting to maintain and advance those same rights.

There are plenty of gays embarrassed by the amount of nudity and flaunting of genitals at pride parades. They would disagree that pride parades are a desirable way to advocate for GLBT rights. Some gays don't think pride parades help public acceptance of their lifestyle. Of course, it would not be PC for them to speak out. When they do, it is anonymously on blogs or media comment sections on the internet.

[Dave_ON]

Russia's Czarist regime ultimately collapsed because the Czar decided to hand out "taxpayer" money to people who had "jumped through hoops".

When a society hands out alot of money the Czarist way, the State is in trouble.

Ugh, and view my comment above.

Sure if that's the perspective you want to take I guess that's your call. The comparison however, is tenuous at best.

The State should not subsidize or even encourage a questioning of the State. First of all, it's the State. Second of all, it corrupts the question.

Perhaps I'm misreading this or not taking it in the context in which you intend. But as written, it seems like you're advocating facism. The state is right and beyond question? I'm certain that's not your meaning.

Dave, let me put this possibly in terms that you'll understand: If the gay parade takes federal money, it's gone mainstream. And if it's gone mainstream, it's no longer questioning the status quo. (I think the term is co-opted, or "bought".)

So which is it? Avant Garde or mainstream I'm confused. As mentioned earlier perhaps 25 years ago it was not mainstream, one could hardly make that arguement now.

Dave, so you're gay or you want to defend the rights of gays.

Fine.

In my view, gay people are like left-handed people. I don't see left-handed people asking for federal money to organize parades or to educate right-handed people about how left-handed people are oppressed.

Instead, I see another Leftist "oppressed" group inventing a reason for special treatment, and taxpayer money.

You hit the nail on the head. Once upon a time in the not too distant past left handedness was strongly discouraged. Further back they were considered deviant and even further back evil. In modern times at most left handedness is an inconvenience, especially when using scissors.

Being gay is not an imaginary oppression as you have stated I assure you it is quite real. It's easy to scoff when you're not in a position where you need to deal with the bigotry, prejudice or cajoling that is part and parcel with being gay. Is it as bad as it was 25 years ago, of course not; society has come a long way since that time. However, until I can walk down the street holding hands with my partner without being harassed, harangued or cajoled I won't have someone such as you pontificating to me that this is all in my head. It's real and it’s a part of everyday life.

If you think it’s about special treatment your sadly mistaken, it’s about equal treatment, and it’s about being able to live and let live. This “oppressed” WASP POV is ludicrous at best.

Be that as it may this is a severe digression from the topic at hand and you have still failed to prove as to why it is the Calgary stampede, which again is of interest to a limited segment of our population should receive federal funds while gay pride should not.

[Dave_ON]

There are plenty of gays embarrassed by the amount of nudity and flaunting of genitals at pride parades. They would disagree that pride parades are a desirable way to advocate for GLBT rights. Some gays don't think pride parades help public acceptance of their lifestyle. Of course, it would not be PC for them to speak out. When they do, it is anonymously on blogs or media comment sections on the internet.

You're right gay people are all quite different from one another. But the flagrant debauchery of pride festivities is largely, largely exaggerated. The nudity is minimal and largely consists of topless women, which in the province of Ontario is entirely legal. The great falsehood of our time is that Pride is just for gay people to laud it over the non-gays, it's not; it’s for friends, family and anyone who wants to join in. It's about diversity and celebrating yourself. Do some people take it too far; yes the same can be said about any group.

[M.Dancer]

The nudity is minimal

I'm going to have a Benny Moment.....

....nudity is always, minimal.

Done

[August1991]

Being gay is not an imaginary oppression as you have stated I assure you it is quite real. It's easy to scoff when you're not in a position where you need to deal with the bigotry, prejudice or cajoling that is part and parcel with being gay. Is it as bad as it was 25 years ago, of course not; society has come a long way since that time. However, until I can walk down the street holding hands with my partner without being harassed, harangued or cajoled I won't have someone such as you pontificating to me that this is all in my head. It's real and it’s a part of everyday life.

...

If you think it’s about special treatment your sadly mistaken, it’s about equal treatment, and it’s about being able to live and let live. This “oppressed” WASP POV is ludicrous at best.

...

Be that as it may this is a severe digression from the topic at hand and you have still failed to prove as to why it is the Calgary stampede, which again is of interest to a limited segment of our population should receive federal funds while gay pride should not.

It's not a digression at all. This thread, from its inception, was an invitation to gay activists. This thread is all about a small minority in society making a point.

Welcome to the Internet!

However, until I can walk down the street holding hands with my partner without being harassed, harangued or cajoled I won't have someone such as you pontificating to me that this is all in my head. It's real and it’s a part of everyday life.

It depends on the community. There is serious objection, and it's different from Sidney Poitier and Katherine Houghton.

IMV, the people who oppose gay marriage deserve respect. They have a point. As I once argued here, if it doesn't have whole eggs, it's not mayonnaise.

(OMG. Another GMT.)

-----

Edited to add: GMT = Gay Marriage Thread. Please understand that a poster here (Black Dog) convinced me of the justice of gay marriarge.

Edited July 9, 2009 by August1991

[ToadBrother]

IMV, the people who oppose gay marriage deserve respect. They have a point. As I once argued here, if it doesn't have whole eggs, it's not mayonnaise.

No, they do not deserve respect. And as to having a point, well, I'm sure all those Antibellum folks thought they had a point too, when they didn't their white daughters marrying none of them there colored boys, and burning a few crosses just to remind folks of the proper gawd-fearing way to view the race issue.

[Bonam]

Russia's Czarist regime ultimately collapsed because the Czar decided to hand out "taxpayer" money to people who had "jumped through hoops".

When a society hands out alot of money the Czarist way, the State is in trouble.

What are you guys talking about lol? The Empire collapsed because it was utterly beaten beyond any hope in WWI, had endured countless casualties among its hopelessly outmatched and under-equipped soldiers, and had suffered extreme famine and hardship for many years. Same thing goes for the provisional government that immediately followed the Czar, prior to the communist takeover.

[bush_cheney2004]

.....I'm sure all those Antibellum folks thought they had a point too, when they didn't their white daughters marrying none of them there colored boys, and burning a few crosses just to remind folks of the proper gawd-fearing way to view the race issue.

An awkward corruption at best....Antebellum is simply a narrow pre-Civil War period predating the Klan, which didn't burn crosses until much later.....even in Canada.

[Dave_ON]

It's not a digression at all. This thread, from its inception, was an invitation to gay activists. This thread is all about a small minority in society making a point.

Welcome to the Internet!

It depends on the community. There is serious objection, and it's different from Sidney Poitier and Katherine Houghton.

IMV, the people who oppose gay marriage deserve respect. They have a point. As I once argued here, if it doesn't have whole eggs, it's not mayonnaise.

(OMG. Another GMT.)

-----

Edited to add: GMT = Gay Marriage Thread. Please understand that a poster here (Black Dog) convinced me of the justice of gay marriarge.

Of course everyone is entitled to their POV, an of course they are enttled to respect. I'm uncertain as to where I ever alluded to the fact that they do not or even outright stated it. Further to that end I believe that everyone is also entitled to live their life free from harassment. Some of us aren't given that right without a fight, that's just the reality of it.

[Bonam]

an of course they are enttled to respect.

Respect is not an entitlement. Respect must be earned.

[Wilber]

The whole notion of government financing celebrations based on sexual orientation is absurd.

[ToadBrother]

What are you guys talking about lol? The Empire collapsed because it was utterly beaten beyond any hope in WWI, had endured countless casualties among its hopelessly outmatched and under-equipped soldiers, and had suffered extreme famine and hardship for many years. Same thing goes for the provisional government that immediately followed the Czar, prior to the communist takeover.

Yeah, I'm not sure what the hell these guys are talking about. The previous attempts at revolution had failed because the Czarist regime was too strong, and its secret police too active. With a collapsing economy, mounting casualties and Nicholas II's crazy decision to try to manage the war effort himself, the regime went into a free fall. To be fair, Kerensky never had the time to do much of anything other than to try to keep the Bolsheviks from seizing power, and it was military failures during the Civil War that cut the Provisional Government short.

Edited July 9, 2009 by ToadBrother

[Dave_ON]

The whole notion of government financing celebrations based on sexual orientation is absurd.

more or less absurd than subsidizing a celbration based on how fast you can hog tie a calf?

[Wilber]

more or less absurd than subsidizing a celbration based on how fast you can hog tie a calf?

Yes, why don't we have a straight pride day or a necrophiliacs pride day? Why leave anyone out? I have nothing against gays, most of the ones I know are regular folks. Frankly, while it may be a great party, I don't think gay pride parades do much to further understanding with most of the public. I guess Trudeau's comment about government having no business in the nations bedrooms doesn't apply equally to all.

[jdobbin]

Gay Conservative commends Tories.

http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/stor...09?hub=Politics

And Senator Nancy Ruth says the MP who publicly criticized Ablonczy is one of only a handful who grumbled about the $400,000 tourism grant at a June caucus meeting.

"I give Ablonczy 100 per cent credit for choosing not politically to discriminate against something Pride Toronto had a legitimate reason to apply for and met all the criteria," Ruth said in an interview.

"It takes guts not to discriminate when you know there is a faction within your party who isn't going to like it. That takes guts and courage and I admire that."

Ruth was appointed to the Senate as an independent in 2005 by Liberal prime minister Paul Martin, but joined the Conservative caucus a year later.

I wonder if Ruth will be tossed from the caucus.

[Melanie_]

Respect is not an entitlement. Respect must be earned.

I disagree. Everyone is entitled to basic respect, until they do something to lose it. Respecting people's right to an opinion, which is where this came from, is not something we each have to go out and "earn" from everyone we encounter - its just a given in a democratic society.

[ToadBrother]

I disagree. Everyone is entitled to basic respect, until they do something to lose it. Respecting people's right to an opinion, which is where this came from, is not something we each have to go out and "earn" from everyone we encounter - its just a given in a democratic society.

That depends on how you define "basic respect". I certainly agree that in a truly free and democratic society, people have a right to express even the most vile of opinions (which is why hate speech legislation is an anathema to a society that truly respects fundamental liberties).

That being said, I don't have to respect racists or bigots, homophobes or any of the like. I'm not going to advocate they be silenced, because their right to express their repugnant and evil views is a fundemental one. Just as long as I can express my opinion of their opinion, and can express how I feel they are depraved and immoral people, then things are going along just fine.

[ToadBrother]

Yes, why don't we have a straight pride day or a necrophiliacs pride day? Why leave anyone out? I have nothing against gays, most of the ones I know are regular folks. Frankly, while it may be a great party, I don't think gay pride parades do much to further understanding with most of the public. I guess Trudeau's comment about government having no business in the nations bedrooms doesn't apply equally to all.

It's a free country. They can have their pride parade if they want.

[benny]

Russia's Czarist regime ultimately collapsed because the Czar decided to hand out "taxpayer" money to people who had "jumped through hoops".

When a society hands out alot of money the Czarist way, the State is in trouble.

"Taxpayer money" is meaningful only for a demagogue.