Marijuana

[CanadaRocks]

Most polls I run across suggest that a majority of Canadians feel marijuana should be decriminalized, legalized for medical reasons, or simply legalized.

I realize I am an ignorant Canadian, but though I tried looking into the reasons marijuana is worthy of being illeagal I see very little justification if any, perhaps I'm missing out on the real justification, if so? Please educate me.

I don't believe that as a health hazard its not serious enough on that merit alone to take someone away from their job, from their family, from their lives and to imprision them labelling them for life as a criminal.

I do believe that the process of detecting, prosecuting, incarcerating those suspected or convicted of marijuana use is EXTREMELY expensive. I've been told that on average it costs Canadians $250 per day to keep a Person in prison. I've also been told that recidivisim rates are about 80% (meaning once a Person has went to jail the chance of them not going back is about 20%)

Does anyone know what the total costs of detecting, processing, and incarcerating marijuana users are? Its got to be insanely high even from an economical standpoint.

I've heard that one reason its illeagal is that it is a "gateway drug." Gateway drug meaning that the situations in which marijuana users may find themselves may introduce them to harder drugs. Couldn't this also apply to music concerts, music itself, our work places, and any one of a thousand other situations which are not illeagal?

I've heard too that it is illeagal because we do not wish to risk offending the United States. Are we then afraid to stand up for what we believe is right? Are we just allowing ourselves into being bullied?

Please educate me, and I mean that quite literally. Having read all the information I could find on the topic, I cannot logically understand why when we are in such a financial bind as to close women's shelters, water down and eliminate social programs, open our borders to foreign investors, and myriad other financially devastating options, that we are not dropping the financial burden of prosecuting marijuana users who appear to be otherwise law abiding and productive individuals.

I've heard that originally was made illeagal not for valid reasoning, but because those moguls in the pulp and paper industry feared that hemp based products were superior to wood based products and made marijuana use illeagal to remove any threat to their own industry and profits?

I've also heard that marjuana has not only a calming affect but has several valid medical applications.

Lastly? I've heard that no one in recorded history has ever died of a marijuana overdose? Alcohol has a terrible record, its legal. Ciggarettes if eaten I understand will also kill. But in none of its forms will marijuana kill?

In my opinion, we as a society should have very valid and serious reasoning for taking away the freedom of any of our citizens.

Before writing this I took gander at a site that takes an authoritative look at this topic, and at another site where a Supreme Court Judge looked at the evidence and states:

Those two sites are listed below.

Supreme Court Judge Weighs the Evidence

CannabisLink.CA

Perhaps I'm missing the point here, but then again, perhaps our politicans are?

Just what reasoning validates marijuana being illegal at all? What profit can we as Canadians realize by keeping it illegal?

[willy]

A couple of small points.

80% of our trade is with the US. One day of our boarders being closed is $100 of millions in lost trade. This is not them bulling us but rather just reality.

Why take this risk? So people can get a buzz?.

As for medical use, this is being introduced. And it will be a controlled substance like any other drug.

Just not a priority to do anymore.

Sometimes it is best not to just ask why not but to ask why.

Real priorities: Poverty, health, education, jobs, safety, justice ect.

[maplesyrup]

Does anyone know at what stage the legislation to decriminalize small amounts of mj is at, or what the number of the Bill is?

Or this another con (pardon the pun) from the Cotler & Martin Liberal team?

Americans need to butt out of Canada's internal matters, and focus on cleaning up their own despicable drug problems.

[vroom]

It should be legalized and sold through the liquor stores as an added revenue stream for the government...

[CanadaRocks]

Why take this risk? So people can get a buzz?.

Standing up for what you believe is right and just, is never wrong.

Just because you or I are personally unaffected is no excuse to turn a blind eye to the unjust suffering around us. Canadians having commited no aggressive or immorral act against anyone, including themselves, are being harrassed, arrested, sentenced, incarcerated, fined, taken from thier families, jobs, productivity, and having their freedom stolen. That.. is immoral, and you support that?

We are Canadians, fellow Canadians are being emotionally tortured by an unjust law. It's not "their problem" its OUR problem. If you want People to obey laws, those laws should be logical and just.

Consider the parenting concepts of Authoritarian, Authoritative, and Permissiveness. Consider what social products each produces. Society as a whole is not much different when subjected to these concepts.

Real priorities: Poverty, health, education, jobs, safety, justice ect.

Not bad lineup you have there. By my reckoning marijuana use falls primarily under justice and being illeagle when the available facts surrounding it do not warrant it, is unjust.

Personally, the reason I feel that many powerful Canadians do not care to adjust the marijuana law, is that they are used to living above it.

Back home, I know a judge who regularly passes sentence on marijuana users there. I recall that that same judge was caught once with several BARRELS of marijuana oil in his possession. There was an article in our local paper on that. Many of us suspected that he would be removed from his position and given a stiff jail sentence. Far from the truth, the matter died out swiftly from the public eye, there were no criminal charges that made it to court, he did no time, and yet today continues to sit on the bench.

Why is marijuana use not legal? I kinda figure its because while it is commonly used, those in power are not held to account when they are guilty, so why bother? It's only harming the powerless Canadians. Disagree? Didn't the RCMP themselves guard Ms Trudeau's stash?

If marijuana is truely illeagal for valid and just reasons, if criminal records are truly warranted, if imprisonment is truely justified? Then show that justification for all Canadians to know and appreciate. We are not a bunch of unthinking, irresponsible numbskulls, we are overall relatively reasonable and thinking people capable of understanding.

..and if marijuana being illeagal cannot be justified, then act responsibly and remove it from the books.

Being "on the books, is not reason enough to enforce it."

Back home we have a law on the books that states all establishments on main street must have hitching rails for horses. I've yet to see any charges ever pressed regarding that. Indeed, many obselete laws are on the books, so either enforce them all, or stop picking and choosing without justification?

Lastly? I submit that by lumping marijuana in with all the other drugs such as cocaine, pcp, etc. it is societal laws themselves which encourage users to consider using harder drugs. How many of our children and fellow Canadians who know marijuana is relatively harmless wind up thinking that if society is full of crap when it says its dangerous, that other truly dangerous drugs are as well? Lumping jaywalking in with murder would be wrong, and so is lumping marijuana in with cocaine.

80% of our trade is with the US. One day of our boarders being closed is $100 of millions in lost trade

This suggests that betraying the trust and lives of thousands of Canadians is justified because its good for business. May I suggest that you are not a Canadian at heart, and if you need money to emmigrate I'd be pleased to offer a donation.

Wake up my fellow Canadians, we can't save the world in one fell swoop, but each drop of justice will eventually create an ocean of justice.

[Black Dog]

80% of our trade is with the US. One day of our boarders being closed is $100 of millions in lost trade. This is not them bulling us but rather just reality.

Keep in mind that trade works both ways. Closing the border would hurt the U.S. too, and is highly unlikely (if so, then maybe we'd have to close the border to all the electricity we send down to the eastern seaboard and "let the bastards freeze in the dark". ).

Real priorities: Poverty, health, education, jobs, safety, justice ect.

Well, consider the simple fact that loosening up pot laws would free up millions of dollars for other uses, put many more cops onto the street, and ease the burden on the justice system. It's not like all of those areas are completely unconnected.

The war on drugs is a totally futile expenditure of resources and results in ridiculous punishments. In the States, epicentre of the drug war, there are more people in prison for drug offences (including minor ones such as possession) than are in the jails of the entire European Union for all offences. That's thousands of lives ruined, while drug use continues to climb. That's not sound public policy. That's insanity.

[willy]

Canadians having commited no aggressive or immorral act against anyone, including themselves, are being harrassed, arrested, sentenced, incarcerated, fined, taken from thier families, jobs, productivity, and having their freedom stolen. That.. is immoral, and you support that?

Drug dealers are not nice guys. They are criminals and they break the law. It is not stolen freedom; they chose to break a law. We all know it is against the law, and no greater good is served by selling or using drugs.

People with MS, HIV, etc should have access and that is the purpose of medical distribution.

Those who had a long day should learn to deal with reality and not coat it over with self medication by exposing themselves to the legal ramifications.

I recall that that same judge was caught once with several BARRELS of marijuana oil in his possession.

He should have gone to jail and probably for longer than the norm as he broke the public trust.

This suggests that betraying the trust and lives of thousands of Canadians is justified because its good for business. May I suggest that you are not a Canadian at heart, and if you need money to emmigrate I'd be pleased to offer a donation.

If being a real Canadian means I must impair my judgment with the use of drugs, I guess I am not.

We are not a bunch of unthinking, irresponsible numbskulls, we are overall relatively reasonable and thinking people capable of understanding.

I suggest that if you smoke enough, you will in fact be unthinking, irresponsible and a numbskull. Marijuana impairs you judgment. Think as hard as you can before you post on this again. You might not be rational.

[Black Dog]

Drug dealers are not nice guys. They are criminals and they break the law. It is not stolen freedom; they chose to break a law.

As I already pointed out, the current drug policy of prohibition isn't working. It's bad law, law that needs to be reformed to better serve the people.

Under the current laws these "not nice guys" are allowed to flourish simply because they are the one's providing for the market. Legalization or decriminilization would put these guys out of business faster than million cops ever could.

no greater good is served by selling or using drugs.

No greater good is served by smoking, drinking, watching American Idol, yet these things are okay. Why? Because in a free society we are allowed to make choices, even stupid ones others might not agree with.

Those who had a long day should learn to deal with reality and not coat it over with self medication by exposing themselves to the legal ramifications.

Whatever. If you've ever come home and cracked a beer, poured yourself a Scotch, lit a smoke, or popped a Xanax, you're guilty of self-medicating. The differing legalities are rather arbitrary.

Geez, I thought conservatives were all for the government staying out of people's private lives...

[Alliance Fanatic]

Actually drugs are the root of many of Canada's social problems. My biggest fear with legalizing marijauna is that the criminal element will still benefit from the legalization on marijauna, and that more and more kids will start experimenting with harder drugs. Another issue with marijauna is that marijauna may infact be a gateway drug which presents a huge problem for the authorities. I think the best way to get a drug free Canada is to give longer sentences for the dealers, and to also clamp down on grow ops, and drugs shipped into the country.

The Dutch Experiment Has Failed.

By the way Black Dog, conservatives are for stronger families, and giving the community a strong foundation, that picture does'nt include drugs.

[Black Dog]

My biggest fear with legalizing marijauna is that the criminal element will still benefit from the legalization on marijauna, and that more and more kids will start experimenting with harder drugs. Another issue with marijauna is that marijauna may infact be a gateway drug which presents a huge problem for the authorities.

There's no evidence to back the "gateway drug theory". What the gateway theory presents as a causal explanation is a statistical association between common an uncommon drugs, an association that changes over time as different drugs increase and decrease in prevalence. Marijuana is the most popular illegal drug in the United States today. Therefore, people who have used less popular drugs such as heroin, cocaine, and LSD, are likely to have also used marijuana. Most marijuana users never use any other illegal drug.

I think the best way to get a drug free Canada is to give longer sentences for the dealers, and to also clamp down on grow ops, and drugs shipped into the country.

The hardline, zero tolerance approach has been tried for years, yet drugs ar echeaper and more widely available than ever. Why are some people so incapable of recognizing that the drug warriors' policies have failed?

The Dutch Experiment Has Failed.

How? Dutch rates of drug use are lower than U.S. rates in every category. Isn't that the point?

By the way Black Dog, conservatives are for stronger families, and giving the community a strong foundation, that picture does'nt include drugs.

You don't stregthen families by throwing family members in jail. Fact is, children of inmates are at risk of educational failure, joblessness, addiction and delinquency. Drug abuse is bad, but the drug war is worse. It creates many more problems than it solves.

[CanadaRocks]

Wow.. I am getting a bit of education here and it wasn't just a waste of time to post!

Pretty impressive stuff Black Dog.

Actually drugs are the root of many of Canada's social problems

I've spent a few years studying social work at university, not that I'm flouting it, but I've had some exposure to the issues surrounding social problems in Canada. At no point was it suggested that drugs, either hard or soft, were the cause, although in some cases they were presented as symptoms.

Please give information to support your contention that drugs are a cause, and not a symptom.

He should have gone to jail and probably for longer than the norm as he broke the public trust.

So long as any average Canadian would have been punished for it Willy, I agree with you.

But Willy we are not living in an ideal world are we? Those who rule over us are pretty much exempt from the rules and that is one very solid reason they are so willing to enforce and maintain them even if no valid reasoning supports them.

I thank you all for the reasoning you've shared, and ask you again .. just what justifies marijuana being illeagal at all?

I don't want some sad excuse, or some lame handoff possibility, I want a hard fact(s).

That bit about marijuana being a gateway drug?

One might easily argue that media and television, introduce more individuals to drug use than any other possible medium. Shall we then make television illeagal?

When it comes to murder? I think we all, every Canadian, can understand the reason for laws against it, and to support it being illeagal.

So far, the truth seems to be, that there is no valid reason for marijuana being illeagal.

[Alliance Fanatic]

Police officers who worked prostitution told me that many prostitutes had started with drugs, and then once they were hooked before the age of 18 they started selling their bodies to pay for their addiction. Prostitution is an addiction quite a few of the prostitutes dont want to be there, but the drug addiction forces them to stay. Legalizing drugs and opening up drug sites is not the answer. I think that governments must do more to get people off drugs, and I know that once I turn 18 I'm going to do some volunteer work and help people get off their drug habits.

In the netherlands organized crime has grown exponentialy, now more and more crime syndicates have money to produce ecstacy.

[willy]

Exerts From

THE SPECIAL COMMITTEE ON NON-MEDICAL USE OF DRUGS

Forty-two percent of Grade 10 students reported having used marijuana three or more times in 1998 compared to 25% in 1990. Use of marijuana by Grade 8 students went up from approximately 10% in 1990 to 19% in 1998.

Why has there been such a substantial increase in consumption? An analysis of the 1977-1999 Ontario Student Drug Use Surveys suggest that increasing rates of use correlates with young people’s weakening perceptions of risk of harm in drug use, weakening moral disapproval of drug use, and increasing perceived availability of drugs.

The most commonly used illicit substance was cannabis with 7.4% of the respondents reporting use in the last 12 months (28.2% reporting lifetime use),14 followed by 1.1% reporting current use of LSD, speed or heroin and less than 1% reporting current use of cocaine.15 The 1994 survey did not assess the prevalence of ecstasy use but provincial data suggest that it is as prevalent in Canada as in other countries.

Hydroponic marijuana prosecutions result in sentences in the range of six months to one year, hardly a deterrent to the organized criminal groups that can bring in $400,000 per year from 400 marijuana plants. It is also believed in the policing community that the funds derived from these operations are being used to fund other drug importation, such as that of heroin, MDA, and ecstasy, and other criminal enterprises. A large majority, over 80%, of the criminal organizations are involved in drug trafficking. Illicit drugs are the staple commodity of organized crime enterprises.27

Cannabis

Delta-9-tetrahydrocannabinol (THC) is the major psychoactive ingredient in cannabis products. Cannabis acts upon specific receptors in the brain. Cannabis products are usually smoked or orally ingested (food or tea).

Recent research and anecdotal evidence point to potential therapeutic uses of cannabis including managing pain, relieving nausea and vomiting caused by cancer chemotherapy, stimulating appetite and relieving the AIDS wasting syndrome, alleviating intraocular pressure associated with glaucoma, decreasing muscle spasms associated with generalized epilepsy and relieving spasticity arising from multiple sclerosis. Health Canada’s Office of Cannabis Medical Access provides direct funding to support clinical trials into the safety and effectiveness of smoked and non-smoked marijuana and cannabinoids for medical purposes. The five-year research plan established in 2001 will provide a better understanding of the therapeutic uses of cannabinoids.

Sought-after effects of cannabis include:

  

a sense of well-being, euphoria, relaxation; and

enhanced sensory experiences.

Short-term effects of cannabis include:

  

increased appetite;

increased pulse rate;

cognitive and psychomotor impairment;

talkativeness;

perceptual alterations (colours and sounds are sharpened); and

time distortion.

At very high doses, the effects of cannabis can be similar to those of hallucinogens. Regular heavy use of cannabis may lead to tolerance and heavy, long-term use, can cause dependence.

Long-term effects of cannabis include:

a loss of drive and interest in sustained activity; and

a risk of lung cancer, chronic bronchitis and other lung diseases if cannabis is smoked.

Cannabis is the most widely used illicit substance in the world, with 3.5% of the world’s population reporting use in the late 1990s. Treatment demand for cannabis is significantly lower than for opiates or cocaine, but far from negligible. On average 15% of all treatment demand at the global level is attributed to problem use of cannabis and this percentage is on the increase as levels of consumption increase and as cannabis with higher THC levels becomes more available. In the late 1990s, the prevalence of cannabis use in the general population was 6.6% in North America and 4.9% in Europe, representing respectively 20.4 million and 31.1 million people.52

I left in the good and bad.

I support the medical use and distribution.

The rest of the evidence is not compelling to me as to why it is a good idea to decriminalize or legalize it.

Small amounts of possession decriminalized with fines, might be a good step. This in my opinion is just a strategy to focus resources on dealers of all drugs.

[Sully]

Well I do not think the government should decriminalize marijuana. It is a drug plain and simple, yes alcohol and tobacco are too and we already see the problems that many people have with those two. But those drugs have been around for a long time and permeate our society, we do not need to add another drug in the mix.

If the government did decriminalize, I hope they would take over growing and distributing it and taxing the holy hell out of it. I mean, we would see a spike in people driving under the influence of weed. I know it doesn't make you a better driver, even if you are doing 30 in an 80 zone, freaking out about cops being at every light you come to, you are still a threat to the thousands of other people on the road. Also many of those people have the the respect and decency not to further increase the risk of potentially taking one of your loved ones away from you in car crash because they were high. So if weed becomes less of "evil" in society be prepared for headlines of fatal car crashes attributed to weed, man. It does have a cost.

Secondly weed is a drug, when its smoked, you are breathing in carcinogens. Do we all know what those lead to, yup you guessed it cancers. With an already failing medical system in Canada and aging population, we are only going to see more and more cancers, draining more and more of our financial resources. Do we really need to add to that strain by allowing people easier access to these drugs. I mean look at how many fat lil kids we have running around, get ready for more heart disease and diabetes, more strain in the future. The government needs to take preventative steps these days, not dealing with it after the damage is done.

Unfortunately people are not smart enough to take care of themselves, look at whats happening in the states. People suing tobacco companies for giving them lung cancer, porkers suing fast food joints for making them fat, only time til that thinking reaches here, then we are in trouble for real.

There are some solutions, the medical system should be allowed to exempt people from certain medical care if they choose a lifestyle that habitually uses marijuana. They should not be able to seek treatment if they come down with afflictions that are directly attributable to marijuana use, such as certain oral and lung cancers. I mean why should the rest of pay for people who knowingly harm their bodies. This can be a new approach. Or the the amount of taxes that are collected from the government sale of these drugs can fund a certain number of hospitals across the country for treating people with the direct afflictions of these drugs, but once the money runs out TS.

[Black Dog]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Well I do not think the government should decriminalize marijuana. It is a drug plain and simple, yes alcohol and tobacco are too and we already see the problems that many people have with those two. But those drugs have been around for a long time and permeate our society, we do not need to add another drug in the mix.

Drugs are a reality in our society, and have been for a long time. The difference is in how we approach it. Prior to the early 20th Century, drug use was widely considered a medical issue. A sign of personal weakness (like alcohol) yes, but addiction was a medical condition. People like Sherlock Holmes creator Sir Arthur Conan Doyle enjoyed productive, creative lives despite being hooke don substances that would now land them in the clink for 10 to 12 years (Conan Doyle was a cocaine addict). Somewhere along the line, drugs (in particular, opiates and cananbis derivitives) and their users became a police, criminal and, indeed, a moral matter.

We've been locking people up for drugs for many years, but drug use is growing. The current drug strategy fails to distinguish between problematic from non-problematic drug use. As well, many problems associated with drugs (high levels of incarceration; violence generated by the criminal market; the preventable spread of HIV and other infectious disease; the denial of medical marijuana to the sick; etc.) are byproducts of drug policy, not of drugs itself

We need a new strategy that recognises the reality that people will make choices that we may not agree with and that may impact them negatively. Society's role is to mitigate the harm those choices may have on the individual and society at large.

There are some solutions, the medical system should be allowed to exempt people from certain medical care if they choose a lifestyle that habitually uses marijuana. They should not be able to seek treatment if they come down with afflictions that are directly attributable to marijuana use, such as certain oral and lung cancers. I mean why should the rest of pay for people who knowingly harm their bodies.

We already " pay for people who knowingly harm their bodies."

By your logic, hospitals shouldn't treat people who incur injuries as reult of being drunk, who get cancer from smoking tobacco, who roll their SUVs (why should my tax dollars pay for those people's choice in vehicles?), eat fast food, or undertake any other risky lifestyle choice. In other words, everybody.

People should not be punished for what they choose to put into their bodies, but only for crimes committed against others.

[willy]

Would you want your doctor to leagally be a habitual marijuana user?

Not me.

[Black Dog]

Would you want your doctor to leagally be a habitual marijuana user?

As long as he's not smoking up before he operates, I don't care.

[CanadaRocks]

You know, if I asked any of you gentlemen, why murder is illeagal? I bet you could come up with some irrefutable reasons.

If I asked why drunk driving, is illeagal, again you could come up with irrefutable reasons and solid evidence.

If I asked why rape, theft, sexual abuse, and a thousand other things we have laws against are illeagal, you'd have some hard facts that give valid and just reasons for the legal consequences are there. Reasons that nearly every Canadian would agree with.

So why is it then, that when I come to you, and ask for solid facts and reasons that marijuana should be illeagal, all I get are excuses? Frankly, rather than convince me that this law is in affect for the good of all Canadians, I am getting the distinct feeling that proponents of legalizing marijuana are in the right. It is a bad law, in fact its a horrible law that if it could be fully enforced would see no less than (

Forty-two percent of Grade 10 students reported having used marijuana three or more times in 1998 compared to 25% in 1990. Use of marijuana by Grade 8 students went up from approximately 10% in 1990 to 19% in 1998.

) forty-two percent of our kids having a criminal record, just for starters.

Seriously! Take a moment and think about that.

That forty-two percent? Those are the grade 10 high school students who ADMITTED to it, thinking themselves safe from prosecution. How many more of the kids had tried it, or use it? I would hazard a safe guess to say that forty-two percent is not the true amount of our young people whom if we chose and had the technology we could actually arrest, prosecute, and convict on marijuana related charges.

These kids grow up and become adults, the very adults who today maintain our society. Extrapolating, this would seem to indicate that over half of our society could be given a criminal record if we had the means to detect that they had used it. Canada after all has no statue of limitations does it?

Now granted we have no such technology, nor do we even wish to detect every user of marijuana past and present for the reason of prosecution. Our courts would be flooded to the point they would entirely fail, and our jails could not begin to hold the numbers. Hell people, if the United States with its Zero tolerance followed this example they would have had to arrest and prosecute their own president, and we would have had to arrest Prime Minister Trudeau's wife, not to mention our RCMP for guarding her stash!

The reality seems to be, (unless there is negative evidence not provided by any of you) that marijuana is a relatively "safe recreational/medicinal drug." That Ms Trudeau's possessing it, was more of a joke offense than anything else. That our society members possessing it, is also a joke, and that it poses no serious threat to Canadians in any way, shape or form. It's simply "on the books" and is lumped in with other more harmful drugs, their harmful nature is seen as its harmful nature through the gateway drug theory which itself, is not conclusive.

Indeed, were marijuana legalized, taxed/distributed, by the government, AND ALLOWED TO BE GROWN BY CANADIANS (why not?) ..no longer considered to be the same as cocaine, pcp, ecstasy, and all the rest of the harder drugs, then I submit that in the minds of our youth, they might be able to see more clearly that some drugs are illeagal due to very just reasons and so avoid their use as it is for valid reasons that make sense.

Lets examine some of the latest reasoning provided by members:

We need a new strategy that recognises the reality that people will make choices that we may not agree with and that may impact them negatively. Society's role is to mitigate the harm those choices may have on the individual and society at large.

While this is a general statement, it does seem to indicate that we should recognize when something is failing and explore alternative routes to success. Not a bad thought for either side of the debate to consider.

People should not be punished for what they choose to put into their bodies, but only for crimes committed against others.

Habeas Corpus? Again, I feel there is something of value here. If a Person is not harming others, what right does society have to dictate how they may live, does not our charter of rights and freedoms indicate that we do have a right to be treated fairly?12. Everyone has the right not to be subjected to any cruel and unusual treatment or punishment I reckon that being given a criminal record for using marijuana, an act that is not substancially harmful in and of itself, falls under this category, as well as others.

But those drugs have been around for a long time and permeate our society, we do not need to add another drug in the mix.

Sir, marijuana as I understand it, has been around and in use since before Canada existed as such. It was initially used by the Native inhabitants for many things long before any of us were born or there even was a Canada. Please don't be fooled into thinking marijuana is something new. It only became it illeagal when businessmen declared it turned people insane (an effort to protect their pulp&paper industry from hemp's superior products)

Do we really need to add to that strain by allowing people easier access to these drugs. I mean look at how many fat lil kids we have running around, get ready for more heart disease and diabetes, more strain in the future.

umm.. sir? Are you suggesting if marijuana is legalized it should remain illegal for persons with weight problems because it might make them snack out more? (This part sounds like you would be a proponent of outlawing Persons with weight problems) I don't think the weight of our fellow Canadians is any of our business, its their business.

Small amounts of possession decriminalized with fines, might be a good step.

Sir, if you do it this way, which is by the way Canada seems to be heading, those amounts would still be supplied by "drug dealers."

Far better to simply legalize it, regulate it, supply it, tax it, and clearly separate it from hard drugs. If marijuana use is as prevalent as some say, removing the sale of marijuana from drug dealers revenues entirely might just be the most devastating setback to the "drug trade" that has ever been made in history and placing those revenues into the hands of the government might just be one HEAVEN of a boost to our sagging economy, and I quote..

Hydroponic marijuana prosecutions result in sentences in the range of six months to one year, hardly a deterrent to the organized criminal groups that can bring in $400,000 per year from 400 marijuana plants. It is also believed in the policing community that the funds derived from these operations are being used to fund other drug importation, such as that of heroin, MDA, and ecstasy, and other criminal enterprises. A large majority, over 80%, of the criminal organizations are involved in drug trafficking. Illicit drugs are the staple commodity of organized crime enterprises.27

400,000 a year from 400 plants? (and what, millions of plants grown/sold annually?) The funds these sales provide fund other drug importation such as heroin, MDA, and other criminal enterprises? Sounds to me like if we legalize marijuana, we hit thousands of major crime enterprises RIGHT IN THE WALLET, and we stop prosecuting the victims thus allowing them to be on our side of the fence. Sir, you don't realize it, but the information you provide against legalizing marijuana, actually supports legalizing marijuana.

Police officers who worked prostitution told me that many prostitutes had started with drugs, and then once they were hooked before the age of 18 they started selling their bodies to pay for their addiction

First off? Studies do indicate strongly that marijuana is easier to kick than say ciggarettes or alchol. So your assertion that a reasoning person would be so addicted that they would sell their bodies to get it is not reasonable. Would your daughter sell her body to get a pack of smokes? I can tell you sir, mine would not. Your daughter likely has some deeper issues if she'd sell her body for a joint of marijuana. (the reason I said your and my daughter sir, was not intended as a slight in any way, but simply to put a familiar face on these random women you speak of, they are after all someones daughter or sister yes?)

Secondly? There are harder drugs which may well be addictive enough to contribute significantly to the situation(s) you describe. Remove what does not cause this (marijuana) and lets focus on the ones that do. Clarity, is the beginning of resolution.

I think that governments must do more to get people off drugs, and I know that once I turn 18 I'm going to do some volunteer work and help people get off their drug habits

Sir? I commend you on your community spiritedness! I agree that governments should do more, unfortunately, they spend a lot of time and money on the easy kills, taking down marijuana users, because it looks good on the scorecard, and not enough money and time on the drugs and issues which are of a serious nature, because those targets are smaller and more difficult to achieve.

What you said about "helping people get off their drug habits" ? I think once you engage in this and develop a working knowledge, you will learn that drugs are not the cause, but rather a symptom of the cause, which I believe are fundemental societal ills such as poverty, stress, lack of coping skills, and many others. Bon Chance sir! Our society can use more persons helping to overcome, provided that is you will be seeking the truth, and not simply an easy fix.

Ladies and Gentlemen, if I have missed the valid point that substaniates marijuana being illeagal, please show me, I truly do wish to understand, but thus far, all of the points shown, only serve to support that marijuana be legalized.

Perhaps I'm blind? Club me with the truth. It is the truth we seek. However? If I am not blind, then perhaps it is yourselves who need to reconsider?

[Alliance Fanatic]

Laws are put in place for a reason. Laws are suppose to create a healthy society. We as a society must clearly say what is right and wrong. Unfortunately we might start going into the grey on such issues as murder, rape, and theft.

[willy]

Here is a list of reasons so you don't miss it this time.

1. Trade with the U.S.

2. Causes cancer

3. Inhibits judgment

4. Lowers motivation

5. Effects the brain

6. Reduces perception of harm for kids (the normalizing of pot has a harmless drug is influencing kids trying it)

7. Acts as cognitive depressant that causes psychological dependence

8. Makes for a boring population

Just not a priority to change the law.

Does need a new strategy for accountability and enforcement.

Sir put down the joint and realizes that chemical giggles is not really funny.

Studies do indicate strongly that marijuana is easier to kick than say ciggarettes or alchol.

What studies, links please.

[Black Dog]

Since most of your issues are right out of the drug warriors playbook, most of my responses are coming from the Drug Policy Alliances responses to marijuana myths.

1. Trade with the US.

We're a soveriegn country with every right to choose our own drug policy. The threat of trade reprisals from the puritans to the south shouldn't deter us from making policy decisions that are good for our citizens. Besides, think of the amount of extra tourism dollars we'd get from Americans visiting Amsterdam north.

2. Causes cancer

Like tobacco smoke, marijuana smoke contains a number of irritants and carcinogens. But marijuana users typically smoke much less often than tobacco smokers, and over time, inhale much less smoke. As a result, the risk of serious lung damage should be lower in marijuana smokers.

3. Inhibits judgment

Marijuana produces immediate, temporary changes in thoughts, perceptions, and information processing. The cognitive process most clearly affected by marijuana is short-term memory. In laboratory studies, subjects under the influence of marijuana have no trouble remembering things they learned previously. However, they display diminished capacity to learn and recall new information. This diminishment only lasts for the duration of the intoxication. There is no convincing evidence that heavy long-term marijuana use permanently impairs cognitive functions.

4. Lowers motivation

People who are intoxicated constantly, regardless of the drug, are unlikely to be productive members of society. There is nothing about marijuana specifically that causes people to lose their drive and ambition. In laboratory studies, subjects given high doses of marijuana for several days or even several weeks exhibit no decrease in work motivation or productivity. Among working adults, marijuana users tend to earn higher wages than non-users. College students who use marijuana have the same grades as nonusers. Among high school students, heavy use is associated with school failure, but school failure usually comes first.

5. Effects the brain

None of the medical tests currently used to detect brain damage in humans have found harm from marijuana, even from long term high-dose use. An early study reported brain damage in rhesus monkeys after six months exposure to high concentrations of marijuana smoke. In a recent, more carefully conducted study, researchers found no evidence of brain abnormality in monkeys that were forced to inhale the equivalent of four to five marijuana cigarettes every day for a year. The claim that marijuana kills brain cells is based on a speculative report dating back a quarter of a century that has never been supported by any scientific study.

6. Reduces perception of harm for kids

Nor sure what you mean by this.

7. Acts as cognitive depressant that causes psychological dependence

Most people who smoke marijuana smoke it only occasionally. A small minority of Americans - less than 1 percent - smoke marijuana on a daily basis. An even smaller minority develop a dependence on marijuana. Some people who smoke marijuana heavily and frequently stop without difficulty. Others seek help from drug treatment professionals. Marijuana does not cause physical dependence. If people experience withdrawal symptoms at all, they are remarkably mild.

There is no convincing scientific evidence that marijuana causes psychological damage or mental illness in either teenagers or adults. Some marijuana users experience psychological distress following marijuana ingestion, which may include feelings of panic, anxiety, and paranoia. Such experiences can be frightening, but the effects are temporary. Marijuana does not cause profound changes in people's behavior.

8. Makes for a boring population

Sez you.

Sir put down the joint and realizes that chemical giggles is not really funny

Who made you arbiter of what forms of personal entertainment or enlightenment are acceptable or enjoyable?

[willy]

We're a soveriegn country with every right to choose our own drug policy. The threat of trade reprisals from the puritans to the south shouldn't deter us from making policy decisions that are good for our citizens. Besides, think of the amount of extra tourism dollars we'd get from Americans visiting Amsterdam north.

I am just going to touch on this a little bit. As I have said pot is of little real concern to me. Access to the American market is a huge concern.

We are a sovereign country but this does not give us the right to do anything we want. I am sovereign over my person but if I make choices I will receive the benefit or consequences of my choices.

If Canadians choose to legalize pot, our boarders will be shut right down. We can make threats of "trade war" but really we are in no position to do that. Threats are only good if you can act on them and we will cripple ourselves economically and socially by fighting this battle. We are interdependent with our neighbors like it or not. I am not willing to take the chance for a recreational drug. If the US had a big problem with soccer balls and they might close our boarders I would have to encourage a new sport.

[CanadaRocks]

Well, I was going to respond on each of your points willy, but well .. Black Dog seems to have covered them all very reasonably save for your request of a link to a study regarding addictiveness so I'm offering one for your education, please check it out.

I am by no means suggesting that legalizing marijuana is the salvation of all societies woes, that is a much larger issue.

However, I do suggest that it is unreasonable by the facts presented in this forum thus far to take any Canadian away from their families, lable them as a criminal for life, and put them on the them side of society vs crime.

I do have an open mind willy, but the facts thus far do not support marijuana being something we should be jailing our People over, the law is simply rediculous and irresponsible.

[August1991]

I tend to agree with BD's (good) arguments throughout this thread.

I favour marijuana legalization on pragmatic grounds. We obviously can't control the marijuana trade and it leads to so many other social problems (eg biker gangs and so on).

Willy makes a good point that we have to live with our (porous) US border and what the US government thinks.

But Willy, there's a precedent, interesting in more ways than one.

The US had alcohol prohibition between 1919 and 1933. We essentially did not. During that time, the Seagram's made their fortune, and the US mafia was large created.

Protestant Americans have a puritanical streak whereas we Catholic Canadians suffer from moral catechism. Same diff.

I have no doubt that in 50 years, marijuana will be legal on both sides of the border. As in 1933, the US will eventually realize that forbidding it is worse than accepting it.

By the way, check this out:

By 1898 the temperance forces were strong enough to force a national plebiscite on the issue, but the government of Sir Wilfrid Laurier felt the majority of 13 687 in favour of prohibition was not large enough to warrant passing a law, especially since Québec had voted overwhelmingly against.

Canadian Encyclopedia

Wow! In 1898, we had a national referendum on alcohol prohibition that passed!

[Black Dog]

If Canadians choose to legalize pot, our boarders will be shut right down. We can make threats of "trade war" but really we are in no position to do that. Threats are only good if you can act on them and we will cripple ourselves economically and socially by fighting this battle. We are interdependent with our neighbors like it or not. I am not willing to take the chance for a recreational drug. If the US had a big problem with soccer balls and they might close our boarders I would have to encourage a new sport.

Let me ask you this: do you really think the U.S would close the borders to Canada if we proceed with marijuana reforms? I doubt it, as the economic costs to the States would be great (probably be greater than the costs of continuing to enforce their stupid drug policies). In other words, by punishing us, they would punish themselves.

So, once we rule out that possibility as a likliehood, what's holding us back? There's no reason we can't address drug law reform while still addressing other priorities. Plus, the money saved from ceasing the pointless drug war would undoubetdly be welcome in a number of other areas.