GST

[Topaz]

A report out says the Tories reducing the GST has cost Canadians 10 BILLION to be add to the deficit and don't forget the interest on that 10 Bil. I thought at the time it would come back and bite the taxpayers in the wallet. Perhaps we should really think what the promise the politicans are making and the pros and the cons before we vote. Two things about Harper era, he likes big government and he likes SPEND! http://www.cbc.ca/money/story/2009/06/16/f...te-deficit.html

[Borg]

A report out says the Tories reducing the GST has cost Canadians 10 BILLION to be add to the deficit and don't forget the interest on that 10 Bil. I thought at the time it would come back and bite the taxpayers in the wallet. Perhaps we should really think what the promise the politicans are making and the pros and the cons before we vote. Two things about Harper era, he likes big government and he likes SPEND! http://www.cbc.ca/money/story/2009/06/16/f...te-deficit.html

Deficits come and deficits go - all started by that horrible creature trudeau - may he never be remembered as anything other than a weak and cowardly man with a petty agenda.

Be that as it may, any time I can keep money in MY pocket and NOT pay the way for those who do nothing to add to the country - I am a happy man.

Toss the GST and cut funding to womens groups, specialty groups, religious groups, immigration groups, create work parties and make those on the dole EARN their keep and the beat goes on.

A complete cancelling of all international funding to that cesspool africa and any other country that has received aide for more than 10 years - it obviously was not working and is therefore wasted spending.

Create a "made for Canada" energy pricing policy - to encourage OUR economy - F**K those off shore and south of 49 - the economy would come to us.

Keep the money at home and we would be in far better shape.

Kill the GST completely - anyone who believes we need taxes to survive is an idiot - we need a complete economic rebuild from the ground up - Canada and the vast majority of people in it are too cowardly to consider this.

Borg

Edited June 23, 2009 by Borg

[Pliny]

A report out says the Tories reducing the GST has cost Canadians 10 BILLION to be add to the deficit and don't forget the interest on that 10 Bil. I thought at the time it would come back and bite the taxpayers in the wallet. Perhaps we should really think what the promise the politicans are making and the pros and the cons before we vote. Two things about Harper era, he likes big government and he likes SPEND! http://www.cbc.ca/money/story/2009/06/16/f...te-deficit.html

Cutting the GST was probably one of the best things he could have done.

It left billions in the economy to be invested in future economic activity, future jobs. If he hadn't cut the GST, I would say that 20 billion would have been added to the deficit.

Edited June 23, 2009 by Pliny

[Craig1]

Borg are you drunk? we live in a socialist society..... who is going to pay for healthcare? or any of the luxery's we as Canadians have. Harper was so dumb to cutt the GST what is more dumb is running the country into debt because nobody is going to be able to afford the inflation. They want to rid the middle class and we are doing a good job suporting the elite in doing so.

You can't tell me for a second knowing how cheap and prudent people are we would drive the world economy into the ground unless there was pre motive. People catch onto these things when their money is involved unless they have something to gain. Think for a second they lend you money, now that they forced you into default by taking away your job they can walk in take your home for nothing turn around and sell it for more, banks love it its like a second mortgage.

[Borg]

Borg are you drunk? we live in a socialist society..... who is going to pay for healthcare? or any of the luxery's we as Canadians have. Harper was so dumb to cutt the GST what is more dumb is running the country into debt because nobody is going to be able to afford the inflation. They want to rid the middle class and we are doing a good job suporting the elite in doing so.

You can't tell me for a second knowing how cheap and prudent people are we would drive the world economy into the ground unless there was pre motive. People catch onto these things when their money is involved unless they have something to gain. Think for a second they lend you money, now that they forced you into default by taking away your job they can walk in take your home for nothing turn around and sell it for more, banks love it its like a second mortgage.

Yeah, I forgot - people do not want to exercise persaonal responsibility and actually earn their keep.

OK - the status quo is always the best - so we should raise taxes - let the working class support the remainder of the country - after all the dole is the best way to survive.

I just wonder how much better the economy would be if we actually circulated money.

Wait a minute - it is probably better to circulate that TAX money - after all those who earned it in the first place do not need it - they already have a job.

What WAS I thinking?

Borg

[Jerry J. Fortin]

Borg, you should know that resistance is futile. We exist in the nanny state of Canada , a nation designed to provide cradle to grave benefits that are paid for by the working citizens. Those citizens that don't work simply don't pay.

Don't stop at abolishing the GST, bring out the axe for income taxes. That is the only way the government can increase disposable income, which is the only viable means available to stimulate the economy.

We all know that the government requires a revenue stream to fund its operations, and the bottom line is that those operations come at a cost that must be paid for by some means. I maintain that the way to create that revenue stream is through a consumption tax. Spread the expense across the board and literally have everyone pay for it.

[Borg]

Borg, you should know that resistance is futile. We exist in the nanny state of Canada , a nation designed to provide cradle to grave benefits that are paid for by the working citizens. Those citizens that don't work simply don't pay.

Don't stop at abolishing the GST, bring out the axe for income taxes. That is the only way the government can increase disposable income, which is the only viable means available to stimulate the economy.

We all know that the government requires a revenue stream to fund its operations, and the bottom line is that those operations come at a cost that must be paid for by some means. I maintain that the way to create that revenue stream is through a consumption tax. Spread the expense across the board and literally have everyone pay for it.

Sigh - you are right - I will just keep my money off shore as I have always done - and bring it in via credit card when needed. Makes for free travel advantages as well.

Unfortunately I am of the opinion the government runs far too many operations that it should not be involved with.

Taxes? To send to those places where the money is wasted?

I could knock 40% off Canada's annual bill in a heart beat - but then again those who have been successfully socially re-engineered to NOT think for themselves would be devastated

Yeah, you are right - it is futile

Borg

[Smallc]

Don't stop at abolishing the GST, bring out the axe for income taxes. That is the only way the government can increase disposable income, which is the only viable means available to stimulate the economy.

Oh, so you're an economist then? There are many ways to stimulate an economy, and the best way is with monetary policy...but that hasn't worked on it'sown this time.

You know, I think I'd like to live in this world that you to do, the one where social services are unnecessary....unfortunately in that world Canada is also a bad place, so maybe I wouldn't like it.

[Moonbox]

You know, I think I'd like to live in this world that you to do, the one where social services are unnecessary....unfortunately in that world Canada is also a bad place, so maybe I wouldn't like it.

Social services like the 9 week work year (screwed up EI) and funding to special interest groups can't really be called social services. Those are penalties for working hard.

[Moonbox]

A report out says the Tories reducing the GST has cost Canadians 10 BILLION to be add to the deficit and don't forget the interest on that 10 Bil. I thought at the time it would come back and bite the taxpayers in the wallet. Perhaps we should really think what the promise the politicans are making and the pros and the cons before we vote. Two things about Harper era, he likes big government and he likes SPEND! http://www.cbc.ca/money/story/2009/06/16/f...te-deficit.html

For the record, Topaz, the deficits aren't due to reduced taxation. It's due to increased spending solely. Less tax is always good. Spending increases simply can't outpace tax decreases.

[Bonam]

A report out says the Tories reducing the GST has cost Canadians 10 BILLION to be add to the deficit and don't forget the interest on that 10 Bil. I thought at the time it would come back and bite the taxpayers in the wallet. Perhaps we should really think what the promise the politicans are making and the pros and the cons before we vote. Two things about Harper era, he likes big government and he likes SPEND! http://www.cbc.ca/money/story/2009/06/16/f...te-deficit.html

There's backwards thinking if I've ever seen any. The GST reduction hasn't cost Canadians anything. That 10 billion is extra money that has been left in the pockets of Canadians, rather than being taxed away. The government is in deficit because it made a choice and decided to spend more than it has.

[Smallc]

Social services like the 9 week work year (screwed up EI) and funding to special interest groups can't really be called social services.

I agree, to an extent but 1) a 9 week work year doesn't exist and was never proposed (you don't get a full year of EI from the minimum (which is currently 420 hrs, you get something like 19 weeks), 2) and 2, ones definition of what is bad spending, or a special interest, or a social service can differ from person to person.

[Smallc]

For the record, Topaz, the deficits aren't due to reduced taxation. It's due to increased spending solely.

No, it's due to a combination. We can't decrease taxes and then say that the deficit has nothing to do with the lower taxes. Less tax is not good when it means that we have to take on more debt.....because then it means more tax later.

[myata]

Cutting GST was one of the dumbest moves possible. Nobody makes buying decisions because of 2% difference in price, it's simply negligent. People won't buy more, or less because of such miniscule difference, but it's a more stable source of public revenue than e.g. income or profit based taxes (people keep buying things even in recession while incomes and profits go down a lot). And Harper's strategists decided to cut that very source just in time for the recession!

For the record, I do believe that combined GST/PST level is somewhat high in most provinces (I think most common level outside Canada being around 10-12%), but it should have been adjusted carefully over time, when we could afford it, and giving the time to adjust for the difference. Yet another example, from this government, where ideology has bettered common sense.

[Shady]

The entire premise of this thread is laughable. As if a federal deficit exists because Canadian's don't pay enough taxes.

[Smallc]

The federal deficit exists because of the recession and because we didn't leave ourselves enough room to maneuver.

[Jerry J. Fortin]

Oh, so you're an economist then? There are many ways to stimulate an economy, and the best way is with monetary policy...but that hasn't worked on it'sown this time.

You know, I think I'd like to live in this world that you to do, the one where social services are unnecessary....unfortunately in that world Canada is also a bad place, so maybe I wouldn't like it.

I am all for social services, don't get me wrong. My issue is the funding side of the equation. Income taxes are not the right way to deal with the problem because it provides an unfettered expense account for government. The individual has responsibility, that cannot be ignored. We need to devise a means of utilizing the available systems, and ones not yet invented, in a more efficient manner.

Everything costs money, that is a given. The more things you want, the more money you need. It all boils down to money. The way to get things done is with money. The way to get money is to produce something at a profit. So production yielding profit generates money, and that is what is needed by government to pay for its programs and services. Now either government undertakes production to generate its own revenue stream, or it levies a tax on production to acquire the money it needs. Those are the two available options, no more and no less. Produce or tax. A communistic system chooses production, a capitalistic one chooses taxes. Since we are not communists, we are left with taxes.

Since there are two components to production, resources and labour, there are at least two ways to levy a tax on production. There are alternatives to taxing production as well, such as sales taxes or consumption taxes. Now since we know that the government needs a revenue stream, and the only way to get it is through taxation we come to the crux of the problem. How do you levy a tax to provide the required government revenue stream in an equitable manner? Do you tax the resource, the labour, the sale, or the profit?

The current system levies a tax on each level, but provides for deductions which has created a huge bureaucracy and a score of side business just to secure the revenue stream. Just the act of collecting the taxes costs an incredible amount of money, please remember that the reality is that in the end the consumer covers all costs to business of taxation and the citizen tax payer covers a lions share of the tax levy. Add to this concern the harsh reality that the rich can't be squeezed enough to cover the costs because there simply isn't enough of them. The poor use more services and programs than they pay in taxes, so that leaves the middle class funding about 87% of the revenue stream needed for government with taxes on their incomes. It gets even more scary when you consider that the vast majority of citizens make an average of 50K or less. Those citizens are that demographic that funds the governments revenue stream. The average citizen. To increase taxes, that is where you get the biggest bang for the buck, because that is where they all are.

If you wanted to increase the governments revenue stream you would have to do it on the average citizens back, there isn't anyway around that with income taxes. However, if you eliminated income taxes, and replaced them with consumption taxes the average citizen would save thousands of dollars per year.

Now lets return to your remarks about monetary policy for a minute. You stated yourself that this government manipulation hasn't worked this time. The reason for that is the governments don't really have a monetary policy anymore. We live in a free market economy based on fiat currencies that have no real value. The vast majority of the money supply on this planet is not in the form of hard currency at all, which is the place where government monetary policy is applied, but instead it is brought into being as interest being debt or credit. So now we come to the current problem, it is a credit crisis, and a banking problem, nothing to do with monetary policy at all. Therefore nothing to do with the government. Yet the government response was to transfer public wealth in private hands as a stimulus package. It has and will stimulate nothing, besides the profit margins of private enterprise.

[myata]

So, in the final analysis it's not like you (we) really "saved" anything, just borrowed it at %% (currently low, but watch it, it'd most likely take decades to repay).

[Smallc]

If you eliminate income taxes and increased consumption taxes, you would have to thoroughly search every car coming back from the US...and you would force most retailers in Canada out of business. People would go south to spend their money.

[Moonbox]

The federal deficit exists because of the recession and because we didn't leave ourselves enough room to maneuver.

That's pure drivel. Look up some numbers and get back to us. Show me how leaving the GST stable would have allowed us enough room to maneuver. It wouldn't have even been close.

Add the fact that consumption tax cuts are DEFINETLY an indirect form of stimulus in the first place, and the argument gets even stupider.

The deficit is cause by the recession and over spending. Tax cuts are more money in my wallet and less for the stupid and the lazy. We pay enough to cover Health Care and legitimate EI. What we need after the recession is another Chretien-style axeing of social spending.

[Alta4ever]

I'd like to see the peice of research material that would show the 2% drop in the GST would have paid the 30 billion of stimulus the liberals were proposing in nov.

[Smallc]

We still would have had a deficit, but it would have been $10B lower. The lack of room to maneuver is going to keep us in deficit. That is the problem.

Oh, and Alberta, the Liberals would have been able to balance the budget based on the latest numbers they had from Finance....which we all now know were wrong.

[Shady]

The federal deficit exists because of the recession and because we didn't leave ourselves enough room to maneuver.

Much of the deficit exists from economic stimulus measures. It's not possible to leave "room to maneuver" for such expenditures. Again, a deficit exists not because Canadian's don't pay enough taxes. This entire premise is ridiculous. Using your logic, if we had a 30% GST rate, then we'd be even better shap then what you suggest.

[Smallc]

About $20B is not stimulus. The TD Bank, the PBO, and others are coming out saying that we will not be out of deficit when the government says and that's if we hold the line on spending. The Department of Finance has been wrong all along and there's no reason to think that they're wrong this time.

The reality is that we cut taxes too fast while increasing spending too quickly. That is the reality and no one can deny that. It is that combination of factors that has led us to a deficit BEFORE stimulus was ever introduced.

[Jerry J. Fortin]

Much of the deficit exists from economic stimulus measures. It's not possible to leave "room to maneuver" for such expenditures. Again, a deficit exists not because Canadian's don't pay enough taxes. This entire premise is ridiculous. Using your logic, if we had a 30% GST rate, then we'd be even better shap then what you suggest.

Is it a case of not paying enough taxes, or because we spend more than we take in? I for one certainly don't want to pay more tax. I say it is both a spending problem, and a revenue stream problem.