Israel's secret plan for West Bank expansion

[DogOnPorch]

Blame the Grand Mufti.

[myata]

But of course, somebody else would be always to blame.

But this isn't about blame game, but simple and obvious reality of the world we happend to be in. Can't impose, force your version of reality on somebody else, no matter how much you want to belive in it yourself. Either find a common shared ground, something that accommodates both points of view; or fight till bitter end. Voila, c'est la vie, don't blame the messenger.

[DogOnPorch]

But of course, somebody else would be always to blame.

But this isn't about blame game, but simple and obvious reality of the world we happend to be in. Can't impose, force your version of reality on somebody else, no matter how much you want to belive in it yourself. Either find a common shared ground, something that accommodates both points of view; or fight till bitter end. Voila, c'est la vie, don't blame the messenger.

Bah. The Arabs go on and on about old dates all the time yet want folks to forget fellows like the Grand Mufti and events like the Arab Israeli Wars or that there was no state of Palestine in either the Byzantine or Ottoman Empires...not to mention the British Mandate.

Alexander sold all the real 'Philistines' into slavery long before any Muslim arrived...or Roman for that matter.

[myata]

Still doesn't change the basic fact that one cannot impose their version of reality on others (even one individual, not to say, people), no matter how strongly they believe in it (or want to, or pretend to), or how hard they try. Short of physically removing that individual (as per Stalin's), they'd always have their own vision of the world. Either find something common - of fight to bitter end. No other options.

[DogOnPorch]

Well, I don't know if you actually know the circumstances of Israel's creation? Individual nations voted for it (under the brand new UN). Former Axis nations were not allowed. The Muslims more or less block-voted "no". The rest of the planet said "yes". I believe it was Venezuela that swayed the vote past no return. Some South American country, anyways.

Part of this process involved both sides of the issue padding the population with new-comers. C'mon...even you've seen "Exodus" (second Leon Uris reference today! Not bad. ).

Yes...both sides had been living there for years (centuries) under the Ottoman Turks...but the Jews as Dhimmis (those that pay the Jizya) weren't equals.

[myata]

Sounds like entirely legitimate way to solve the problem, does it? I mean we (really, really) want to believe! Just vote (of course democraticall) and there you go. Alaska - to China; Gibraltar - Spain; Folklands - Argentina. Florida - Venezuela? Complete democratic understanding and entirely peaceful acceptance (and compliance). What a dream (of a world)!

[dub]

The Muslims more or less block-voted "no". The rest of the planet said "yes".

who is the rest of the planet?

Yes...both sides had been living there for years (centuries) under the Ottoman Turks...but the Jews as Dhimmis (those that pay the Jizya) weren't equals.

before the mass zionist immigration, less than 10% of the population of the region were jewish.

[DogOnPorch]

who is the rest of the planet?

Look it up yourself.

before the mass zionist immigration, less than 10% of the population of the region were jewish.

As might be expected seeing that Diaspora took place leaving one a handful that managed to hide from the Romans. Then the Muslims came...also with an army with an attitude.

Had the Grand Mufti not chosen war over peace, Palestine would be a nation and we'd be travelling to our time-shares in Gaza resorts. But the greedy bast*rd wanted the whole pie even if it wasn't his to have...and folks like you support him in posterity. Seeing that he was a Nazi and a General in the SS, what does that make you?

[dub]

Look it up yourself.

all i see is 33 nations voting for the partition. are 33 nations considered "the rest of the planet" to you?

As might be expected seeing that Diaspora took place leaving one a handful that managed to hide from the Romans. Then the Muslims came...also with an army with an attitude.

actually, something you probably wouldn't like to know is that once those BIG BAD Muslims conquered and arrived in 630., the ban on the jews were lifted and they were able to return after a 500 year ban from the region by the romans.

Had the Grand Mufti not chosen war over peace, Palestine would be a nation and we'd be travelling to our time-shares in Gaza resorts. But the greedy bast*rd wanted the whole pie even if it wasn't his to have...and folks like you support him in posterity. Seeing that he was a Nazi and a General in the SS, what does that make you?

yes! this whole thing is because of the grand mufti! you are absolutely right!

who cares about the killings, the expulsions and the fleeing of hundreds of palestinians? that's just inconvenient historical facts.

maybe if you keep repeating grand mufti, people will actually believe that he was the reason the palestinians got fucked over. winkwink

Edited May 8, 2009 by dub

[DogOnPorch]

all i see is 33 nations voting for the partition. are 33 nations considered "the rest of the planet" to you?

At the time it sure was.

actually, something you probably wouldn't like to know is that once those BIG BAD Muslims conquered and arrived in 630B.C., the ban on the jews were lifted and they were able to return after a 500 year ban from the region by the romans.

I'm well aware of when the Muslim Arabs arrived...and what they did. Look up Dhimmi and Jizya in between hunting for the UN Partition.

yes! this whole thing is because of the grand mufti! you are absolutely right!

Glad you agree.

who cares about the killings, the expulsions and the fleeing of hundreds of palestinians? that's just inconvenient historical facts.

The call was for those in harms way to leave while the Jews were dealt with. Many took the Mufti up on his offer.

maybe if you keep grand mufti, people will actually believe that he was the reason the palestinians got fucked over. winkwink

He is.

[myata]

Well I'm certainly not looking to turn this into another endless see-saw thread. Enough is to say that to anybody who'd care to look at the matter with a grain of objectivity, the story of creation of Isreal would appear as murky, shady and questionnable from both moral and legal points of view, as a story of "creation" of a new state could be.

The point I wanted to make is the following. It's interesting and alarming to observe that two events, one of the relatively recent past, and another of today, clearly demonstrate the same, solid, never changing and going anywhere rock-hard blunt hypocrisy and sheer self righteousness, that first created an immense human maelstrom, and now keeps feeding it, and in most likelihood will continue to for years and decades to come, because there's no sign of that blazing "we know best" approach to the world's problems to change or abate in any way.

[dub]

At the time it sure was.

well, it may be in your world, but in reality it wasn't the rest of the planet.

I'm well aware of when the Muslim Arabs arrived...

are you also aware that those BIG BAD persians set the jews free? i'm talking about cyrus the great, as according to the old testament, the deliverer.

when was the last time the jews thanked the persians or the muslims for freeing them? very ungrateful, don't you think?

The call was for those in harms way to leave while the Jews were dealt with. Many took the Mufti up on his offer.

i'm sure many did fight for their land but that doesn't say anything about the attacks on villages by the jewish military and terrorist groups that killed thousands and forced hundreds of thousands of palestinians from their homes.

have you ever looked into the zionist terrorist groups such as irgun and and lehi? another inconvenient historical fact.

have you ever looked into ben-gurion's own admission: "‘the cleansing of Palestine remained the prime objective of Plan Dalet”. it sucks when ben-gurion disagrees with what you say, doesn't it?

[dub]

Well I'm certainly not looking to turn this into another endless see-saw thread. Enough is to say that to anybody who'd care to look at the matter with a grain of objectivity, the story of creation of Isreal would appear as murky, shady and questionnable from both moral and legal points of view, as a story of "creation" of a new state could be.

The point I wanted to make is the following. It's interesting and alarming to observe that two events, one of the relatively recent past, and another of today, clearly demonstrate the same, solid, never changing and going anywhere rock-hard blunt hypocrisy and sheer self righteousness, that first created an immense human maelstrom, and now keeps feeding it, and in most likelihood will continue to for years and decades to come, because there's no sign of that blazing "we know best" approach to the world's problems to change or abate in any way.

you speak the truth.

[bush_cheney2004]

The point I wanted to make is the following. It's interesting and alarming...

Why is it either of these things? What were you expecting as an alternative (given the past)?

Do you know Einstein's definition of insanity?

[DogOnPorch]

well, it may be in your world, but in reality it wasn't the rest of the planet.

In everyone else's world circa 1948 as well. Revisionist. Various Buttwipeistans weren't countries yet or weren't made members.

are you also aware that those BIG BAD persians set the jews free? i'm talking about cyrus the great, as according to the old testament, the deliverer.

Persians at the time certainly weren't Muslims. The Persian Empire is to be admired for its greatness...ask Alexander.

when was the last time the jews thanked the persians or the muslims for freeing them? very ungrateful, don't you think?

The thanked the Shah a lot to the tune of F-15s and various Israeli technologies. But, I doubt you're old enough to remember those days.

i'm sure many did fight for their land but that doesn't say anything about the attacks on villages by the jewish military and terrorist groups that killed thousands and forced hundreds of thousands of palestinians from their homes.

Terrorism existed on both sides. The Irgun aimed mainly at the British. The Mufti liked raiding kibuttzes...especially after the British took away their fire arms.

have you ever looked into the zionist terrorist groups such as irgun and and lehi? another inconvenient historical fact.

Yup...and they no longer exist...nor were they supported by Haganah, Palmach and other more moderate Jewish defence groups.

have you ever looked into ben-gurion's own admission: "‘the cleansing of Palestine remained the prime objective of Plan Dalet”. it sucks when ben-gurion disagrees with what you say, doesn't it?

Care to provide that quote in the context of the entire statement? (ie...no anti-Semitic websites)

Here's a

for you, btw...enjoy.

[dub]

Care to provide that quote in the context of the entire statement? (ie...no anti-Semitic websites)

look it up yourself.

[DogOnPorch]

No need. I know it's out of context if his quote at all.

[dub]

No need. I know it's out of context if his quote at all.

how can "cleansing of the palestinians" be taken out of context?

there are many more quotes from old ben mentioning transfer and the cleansing of the palestinians. you can see most of them in the book righteous victims by benny morris.

[KrustyKidd]

No need. I know it's out of context if his quote at all.

Yep. The purpose of Plan Dalet was to secure Israeli territory in Palestine and cleanse it of any hostiles. I'd like to see the quote in context as well.

Duh

have you ever looked into the zionist terrorist groups such as irgun and and lehi? another inconvenient historical fact.

I have and most actions by these groups were insurgent and sabotage actions against the British military occupiers with only sporadic actions against Palestinians.

Duh

how can "cleansing of the palestinians" be taken out of context?

Make up your mind which is the actual quote. Initially you said

"‘the cleansing of Palestine remained the prime objective of Plan Dalet”

Let us know when you get your so called facts in order and provide a link which carries the entire command so we can see it in context please.

Edited May 10, 2009 by KrustyKidd

[DogOnPorch]

Yep. The purpose of Plan Dalet was to secure Israeli territory in Palestine and cleanse it of any hostiles. I'd like to see the quote in context as well.

It's from Ilan Pappe's book...which I'm sure a fellow like Mr. dub has cracked open. Nuthin' better than Jews raggin' on Jews. Whether Gurion actually said this in his 'diary', though, is up for grabs.

[Rue]

who is the rest of the planet?

before the mass zionist immigration, less than 10% of the population of the region were jewish.

Using your reasoning, only Muslims have legal rights to land ownership in the Middle East. Yes we know. Been there, done that. Its called Dhimmitude. Problem is it is simplistic as it is flawed. You assume because the actual people living in Palestine were Muslim this confers them legal ownership to the land. That is the kind of subjective leap of historic revision some of us notice.

Why?

Because we are aware that using your definition of Palestinian you include any Muslim who came to Palestine and is not Palestinian but moved there has legal owneship to the land but if a Jwe moved there from outside Palestine, they do not. Yes like I said, I know, you love Dhimmitude and the concept that only Muslims can own land.

Yes we know. Any Muslim who moved to Palestine at any time is automatically Palestinian. I love your definition of Palestinian. There is no distinct language, cultural or for that matter was there ever a nation of Palestinians.

What there is of course is a mix of Muslims who came to the area and you now call Palestinians and those actual real Palestinians, who were Muslim, but and Christian and Druze who have always lived in the geographic zone once called Palestine but the Jews who always lived in Palestine, well of course in your definition we just pretend they do not exist because all Jews are colonialist invaders right?

Been there. Done that.

Some of us though try to understand the development of history without putting on your anti-Jewish, anti-Israeli bias and attempt to expand the definition of Palestinian to include non Palestinians as long as they are Muslims.

See for some of us we are well aware the actual natives to Palestine very rarely had title to property. They were dirty poor itinerants moving from swamp to swamp trying to farm or herd goats and tend the land of absentee land owners in the Ottoman Empire.

However your attempt to suggest they all owned the land legally of course asks us to pretend they did. There was no state apperatus that defined their citizenship or legal status nor did they ever establish land title ownership but to you, no problem as long as they are Muslim we can simply call them Palestinian and deny any non Muslim any right to own land there.

The Jews that came there and bought swamp land and land no one else wanted legally and at high prices, of course yes we know, they stole the land. They never paid for it. They just stole it all and they then used the holocaust as an excuse to move there.

Never mind the vast majority of "Palestinians" to this day reject Jordan as a Palestine state-because of course in your definition we just ignore that Jordan was created out of 88% of Palestine unilaterally and illegally by the British and that country had a law of return for Palestinians but forbid any Jews from owning land or obtaining citizenship.

As for the 900,000 Jews expelled from Arab Leage Nations because they had the nerve to be Jews-well never mind 700,000 of them were homeless and were forced to move to Israel-they should have no rights.

In your convenient world land title and ownership never can be a Jew thing now can it. We just ignore that all Muslim nations forbid Jews and other non Muslims from owning land or enjoying equal citizenship. Why would we care. Its just Jews right? They can go back to Europe. I mean the European nations will simply give them back all their property they stole. The Swiss Banks, no problem, they will hand back all the money. Oh say now, those laws in Europe that didn't allow Jews to own land, oh never mind. In today's progressive climate the Jews can live in tolerance side by side with the Romanos and Muslims and Africans and Turks...oh no wait Mr. LaPenn in France has a problem with that.

Say now they can return to their Muslim countries. No wait. They can't do that. Say I know they can all just move to Venezuela. Oh no wait. Mr. Chavez wouldn't like that at all. Say how about Iran? Er no, better not. They are still finishing up wiping out the remaining Bahaiis. Oh I know, Sudan. No wait. Libya. No. Algeria? Hmm. How about Mexico. No wait swine flu.

Here's my point-Jews are going nowhere. Neither are the Muslims living outside Israel who other Arab League nations turned into pawns and refuse citizenship to. They both need nations. They both need the same things.

Your attempt to twist history to paint the conflict as black and white with only one rightful group of people to land is pointless. Its as pointless as the terrorism that this rhetoric fuels and the insane religious fundamentalism many use to justify hating each other in the name of God.

Edited May 11, 2009 by Rue

[dub]

It's from Ilan Pappe's book...which I'm sure a fellow like Mr. dub has cracked open. Nuthin' better than Jews raggin' on Jews. Whether Gurion actually said this in his 'diary', though, is up for grabs.

oh?

is Ilan Pappe another self-hating jew because he shares the truth and not propaganda? heh.

Ilan Pappe is not the only historian (jewish and non-jewish) who has quoted gurion where he clearly talks about cleansing the state of arabs/muslims. guirion's quotes can be found easily. look it up.

you want to keep dancing, avoiding and denying this simple fact, go for it. i don't expect anything else from you.

[DogOnPorch]

oh?

is Ilan Pappe another self-hating jew because he shares the truth and not propaganda? heh.

Ilan Pappe is not the only historian (jewish and non-jewish) who has quoted gurion where he clearly talks about cleansing the state of arabs/muslims. guirion's quotes can be found easily. look it up.

you want to keep dancing, avoiding and denying this simple fact, go for it. i don't expect anything else from you.

Ilan Pappe is propaganda from a former communist.

[dub]

Using your reasoning, only Muslims have legal rights to land ownership in the Middle East. Yes we know. Been there, done that. Its called Dhimmitude. Problem is it is simplistic as it is flawed. You assume because the actual people living in Palestine were Muslim this confers them legal ownership to the land. That is the kind of subjective leap of historic revision some of us notice.

Why?

Because we are aware that using your definition of Palestinian you include any Muslim who came to Palestine and is not Palestinian but moved there has legal owneship to the land but if a Jwe moved there from outside Palestine, they do not. Yes like I said, I know, you love Dhimmitude and the concept that only Muslims can own land.

Yes we know. Any Muslim who moved to Palestine at any time is automatically Palestinian. I love your definition of Palestinian. There is no distinct language, cultural or for that matter was there ever a nation of Palestinians.

What there is of course is a mix of Muslims who came to the area and you now call Palestinians and those actual real Palestinians, who were Muslim, but and Christian and Druze who have always lived in the geographic zone once called Palestine but the Jews who always lived in Palestine, well of course in your definition we just pretend they do not exist because all Jews are colonialist invaders right?

Been there. Done that.

Some of us though try to understand the development of history without putting on your anti-Jewish, anti-Israeli bias and attempt to expand the definition of Palestinian to include non Palestinians as long as they are Muslims.

See for some of us we are well aware the actual natives to Palestine very rarely had title to property. They were dirty poor itinerants moving from swamp to swamp trying to farm or herd goats and tend the land of absentee land owners in the Ottoman Empire.

However your attempt to suggest they all owned the land legally of course asks us to pretend they did. There was no state apperatus that defined their citizenship or legal status nor did they ever establish land title ownership but to you, no problem as long as they are Muslim we can simply call them Palestinian and deny any non Muslim any right to own land there.

The Jews that came there and bought swamp land and land no one else wanted legally and at high prices, of course yes we know, they stole the land. They never paid for it. They just stole it all and they then used the holocaust as an excuse to move there.

Never mind the vast majority of "Palestinians" to this day reject Jordan as a Palestine state-because of course in your definition we just ignore that Jordan was created out of 88% of Palestine unilaterally and illegally by the British and that country had a law of return for Palestinians but forbid any Jews from owning land or obtaining citizenship.

As for the 900,000 Jews expelled from Arab Leage Nations because they had the nerve to be Jews-well never mind 700,000 of them were homeless and were forced to move to Israel-they should have no rights.

In your convenient world land title and ownership never can be a Jew thing now can it. We just ignore that all Muslim nations forbid Jews and other non Muslims from owning land or enjoying equal citizenship. Why would we care. Its just Jews right? They can go back to Europe. I mean the European nations will simply give them back all their property they stole. The Swiss Banks, no problem, they will hand back all the money. Oh say now, those laws in Europe that didn't allow Jews to own land, oh never mind. In today's progressive climate the Jews can live in tolerance side by side with the Romanos and Muslims and Africans and Turks...oh no wait Mr. LaPenn in France has a problem with that.

Say now they can return to their Muslim countries. No wait. They can't do that. Say I know they can all just move to Venezuela. Oh no wait. Mr. Chavez wouldn't like that at all. Say how about Iran? Er no, better not. They are still finishing up wiping out the remaining Bahaiis. Oh I know, Sudan. No wait. Libya. No. Algeria? Hmm. How about Mexico. No wait swine flu.

Here's my point-Jews are going nowhere. Neither are the Muslims living outside Israel who other Arab League nations turned into pawns and refuse citizenship to. They both need nations. They both need the same things.

Your attempt to twist history to paint the conflict as black and white with only one rightful group of people to land is pointless. Its as pointless as the terrorism that this rhetoric fuels and the insane religious fundamentalism many use to justify hating each other in the name of God.

rue... you've gone into another one of your long-winded rants.

all i said was that less than 10% of the population of the area was jewish, before the mass zionist immigration. immigration by mostly eastern european jews who have nothing but biblical connection to the region. There is no attempt by me to twist anything. in fact, my point was to untangle the twists, half-truths and lies that DoP tries to spread. there is nothing wrong with discussing the picture of the region before israel was established. my personal opinion is that the creation of israel was wrong. not because i i have some strange dislike for them - that's furthest from the truth - but because i feel israel was created unjustly and was forced upon the natives of that land.

i have mentioned numerous times that there is no going back and that israel is here to stay. i have said that both sides should honour their obligation to follow the UN mandate and the resolutions.

if you agree that there should be two states and that both sides should honour and follow the UN (which created israel), then we are in the same boat.

[DogOnPorch]

There is no attempt by me to twist anything. in fact, my point was to untangle the twists, half-truths and lies that DoP tries to spread.

Oh...that made me laugh.

All you are is a pack of repeated Hamas propaganda.

Re: The Mufti. One of my uncles (dead) worked for him in Yugoslavia. On long drunken fishing trips, the stories would come out.