Khadr - Court rules he must be Repatriated

[noahbody]

Was he fighting against Canada and her allies or not?

I'm not sure if you can prove he knew Canada was in the conflict.

[M.Dancer]

I'm not sure if you can prove he knew Canada was in the conflict.

I'm not sure you can prove ignorance is a plausible defence in a capital crime.

[benny]

Was he fighting against Canada and her allies or not? This is beyond dispute as he has admitted as much.

Something admitted under torture is very disputed today.

Edited May 27, 2009 by benny

[Muddy]

Something admitted under torture is very disputed today.

Ask his Mom, brother and sister. They will proudly tell you.

[benny]

Ask his Mom, brother and sister. They will proudly tell you.

At best, these persons are all unreliable witnesses.

[Army Guy]

Here is an example of a person charged of treason and hanged, that person was a Canadian and had carried out acts again'st Canadian soldiers, in Hong Kong during WWII. Kanao Inouye

After the Japanese capitulation in 1945, Inouye was arrested in Kowloon and faced a military tribunal for war crimes. Found guilty, he was sentenced to be hanged. The verdict was overturned on appeal, based on the argument that as a Canadian citizen, Inouye could not be prosecuted for war crimes in the service of an enemy army.

In April 1947, Inouye was retried for the criminal charge of treason, and found guilty. On 27 August, 1947, the Kamloops Kid was hanged at the Stanley Jail; his last word was "Banzai!"

So unless the laws have changed there is a precedence....

Treason.

List of people convicted of treason

Treason

[Muddy]

BINGO! What could be worse than betrayal of ones country in time of war? Good research Army Guy!

[Army Guy]

Here is a couple of major problems i have with this whole case....

1 ST If Omar had been killed that day, do any of you think the rest of Canada would have heard about it....and what would Canadains think of that situation....it'as OK to kill him on the battle field but not subject him to gitmo....ironic....

2 And According to our Nations ROE, Omar's entire group of buddies Omar included where guilty enough to kill on the battle field ....And yet once captured we can not find it in our hearts, or our laws to have him charged....or make a charge stick.....Is there something wrong here....I could have killed the boy with no greif or investagation if i remained within the ROE set out by our nation....But our Nations laws can not make the same charges stick in a court of law.....

It is true our country should have grabed this by the balls years ago....and lead the pact....however, only if it is willing to have justice served, and our nation must be willing to make a world statement that terrorism is not tolerated in Canada....And Omar is not the only terrorist living in Canada....there is a shit load as we are a heavan for them with our soft laws and regualtions....

Edited May 27, 2009 by Army Guy

[jdobbin]

If it's all on video, yes.

We have seen that even when things are on video, you often can't make charges stick.

See: RCMP in Vancouver.

Edited May 27, 2009 by jdobbin

[jdobbin]

1 ST If Omar had been killed that day, do any of you think the rest of Canada would have heard about it....and what would Canadains think of that situation....it'as OK to kill him on the battle field but not subject him to gitmo....ironic....

If he had been killed, Canada probably would have heard about it but yes, it would have been considered a legitimate use of force. Soldiers would have followed rules of engagement.

Once someone is taken prisoner, certain guidelines are followed to ensure due process. We know that in the case of Guantanamo, due process and rules were not followed.

This departure from rules both military and civilian handling of prisoners in the root of the troubles of keeping the military prison open and from proceeding with trials.

Edited May 27, 2009 by jdobbin

[Jerry J. Fortin]

For starters, until the US releases him no opinion is worth a tinkers damn. Should this nation spend money to advocate his release, that should be the real question. I say no, its a waste of time and money. What we have is a citizen charged with a crime in a foreign country, now under what circumstances is the government obligated to fund a defense for him? It isn't by law, yet some precedent may be found to be an exception to the "rule". So in my mind this is a tempest in a tea cup.

When the US does release him I would try him for murder under our laws, but as I have said I believe that the country he committed the crime in has the right and responsibility to put him on trail.l

[benny]

Here is an example of a person charged of treason and hanged, that person was a Canadian and had carried out acts again'st Canadian soldiers, in Hong Kong during WWII.

So unless the laws have changed there is a precedence....

The law has obviously been changed since capital punishment has been outlawed.

[Army Guy]

Yes Capital punshiment has been outlawed, with the military finally removing it from it's list of punshiments, however there still remains the precedent that a Canadian was charged with treason outside of Canada....

Edited May 28, 2009 by Army Guy

[Jerry J. Fortin]

Yes Capital punshiment has been outlawed, with the military finally removing it from it's list of punshiments, however there still remains the precedent that a Canadian was charged with treason outside of Canada....

I will suggest that doing anything in this nation to this individual will have major political implications. I think the safest thing to do is send for trial in Afghanistan.

[Army Guy]

I would tend to agree with you, i think he should face up to his crimes where they where commited like any other Canadian is or has....however i think a growing majority does not want anything bad to happen to this boy....But they have yet to say what the real reason is that this boy deserves to be treated differently.

[benny]

Yes Capital punshiment has been outlawed, with the military finally removing it from it's list of punshiments, however there still remains the precedent that a Canadian was charged with treason outside of Canada....

A Canadian adult, not a Canadian child though. Back to square one!

[Peter F]

Here is a couple of major problems i have with this whole case....

1 ST If Omar had been killed that day, do any of you think the rest of Canada would have heard about it....and what would Canadains think of that situation....it'as OK to kill him on the battle field but not subject him to gitmo....ironic....

Probably would never have heard about it. Apparently its perfectly alright to kill whoever you want on a battlefield - See Haditha.

(Haditha)

and no, I do not think subjecting a juvinile to Gitmo is OK. The shootemup at Khost is entirely unrelated to the treatment of juveniles at Guatanamo. I am sure you are not suggesting that prisoners - because they are captured and not killed - can be treated in any damn manner thier keepers please. I understand that you despise the little f***er and I understand that if he had have died at Khost then none of these silly posts at MLW, let alone federal court cases, would have occurred.

...but die he didn't and now he is a prisoner. Does the concept of treating prisoners justly and humanely apply to only prisoners you like or all prisoners wether you like them or not?

How do the Taliban treat thier prisoners? Humanely or not? If not should we then be allowed to skin our prisoners alive (not all of them mind, just the ones that really piss soldiers and/or contractors off).

After all, prisoners are lucky to be alive! They should be on thier knees thanking us keepers for treating them like the shit they are! matter of fact when those couple of airborne guys had thier prisoner their real mistake was killing him - the torture/highschool hijinks they subjected their prisoner to was fine because the kid was lucky to be alive. If they had kept their prisoner alive there'd have been no problem, right?

2 And According to our Nations ROE, Omar's entire group of buddies Omar included where guilty enough to kill on the battle field ....And yet once captured we can not find it in our hearts, or our laws to have him charged....or make a charge stick.....Is there something wrong here....I could have killed the boy with no greif or investagation if i remained within the ROE set out by our nation....But our Nations laws can not make the same charges stick in a court of law.....

The fact that you can legally kill somebody doesn't mean the law does not apply. As you say, if you kill him within the confines of the ROE you are not guilty of a crime...or so has determined our silly legal system. You can kill whoever you like within the confines of the ROE - do please help yourself.

A battlefield is not a court of law. Nor should it be.

So why cant our nations laws make charges stick? Well, actually they can - our prisons are packed full of people who found our nations laws made charges stick. Seems to be a pretty regular occurence. Mind you, our courts tend to rely on evidence; doubts the veracity of statements made under duress; Hearsay is normally not allowed; witnesses can be questioned by the accused etc etc and on and on.

The charges against Khadr may or may not stick should he be charged in Canada, but apparently neither the PMO's office, CSIS nor the RCMP are convinced that any crime widdle Omar is charged with could hold up in court against normal court procedures that regularly lock away hundreds upon hundreds of people.

You know what that makes me think? It makes me think that any evidence against Khadr has been so tainted by the American military's free-for-all against terrorism, that little of such evidence would survive a regular courts scrutiny.

It is true our country should have grabed this by the balls years ago....and lead the pact....however, only if it is willing to have justice served, and our nation must be willing to make a world statement that terrorism is not tolerated in Canada....And Omar is not the only terrorist living in Canada....there is a shit load as we are a heavan for them with our soft laws and regualtions....

What? Canada doesn't have 'Security Certificates'? oh...yes we do

Security Certificate

The real problem is that Canada has no seperate system for trying accused terrorists outside of the normal courts system. Perhaps Canada should create a seperate system with modified rules to make it easier to charge terrorists and modified rules of evidence to make it easier to find terrorists guilty. We can look south to the Military commssions for an example of such a system and how it went over like a lead balloon.

[Army Guy]

A Canadian adult, not a Canadian child though. Back to square one!

Actually the laws within Canada are for all ages, and anyone can be charged, it is the sentencing and imprisonment that changes....i guess the ball is back in your court.....

[benny]

Actually the laws within Canada are for all ages, and anyone can be charged, it is the sentencing and imprisonment that changes....i guess the ball is back in your court.....

I have written higher that Omar, from my perpective, should be guarded in a psychiatric institution.

[noahbody]

I'm not sure you can prove ignorance is a plausible defence in a capital crime.

I'd argue that for treason, not having the opportunity to learn would be a defense for him specifically. Canada had only been in the conflict for a short time. I'm not saying he didn't commit treason, just that it might be hard to prove. I think it would be easier to convict his mother of treason.

[benny]

I think it would be easier to convict his mother of treason.

She would then by comparable only to Louis Riel!

[Army Guy]

Probably would never have heard about it. Apparently its perfectly alright to kill whoever you want on a battlefield - See Haditha.

I want to clarify this right now, Canadian soldiers are very carefull to stay within the ROE, and don't just wantonly open fire on crowds or take retribution on Civilians....And to date there has not been a problem that i'm aware of...

The shootemup at Khost is entirely unrelated to the treatment of juveniles at Guatanamo. I am sure you are not suggesting that prisoners - because they are captured and not killed - can be treated in any damn manner thier keepers please. I understand that you despise the little f***er and I understand that if he had have died at Khost then none of these silly posts at MLW, let alone federal court cases, would have occurred.

...but die he didn't and now he is a prisoner. Does the concept of treating prisoners justly and humanely apply to only prisoners you like or all prisoners wether you like them or not?

I'm not suggesting anything of the sort, i have in past posts agreed fully that all prisoners should be treated as per the genva convention.....

I just find it ironic that our ROE's which are based under Canadian laws, inter national laws, and all the conventions, allow or have found guilty mr Omar enough so that deadly force could be used.....

And i do understand the difference between Battle field conditions and inside a court house conditions....and yet both are governered by the same laws....just different process....this has been one of my pionts....you can't take a combantant off a live battle field and expect there be enough edvidence to convict him in a court house.....so your right in these circumstance our laws need to be changed....or modified....somewhat atleast meet in the middle some where...as i doubt any forensic guys want to travel to the battle field site to collect evidence after every battle for every prisoner taken, every bad guy killed....but i don't see any other way if we are going to continue to charge combatants in a civil court of law...

Your right there is no love lost between me and Mr Omar, it's not that i despise him, but rather what he stands for , and what he does for a living...

How do the Taliban treat thier prisoners? Humanely or not? If not should we then be allowed to skin our prisoners alive (not all of them mind, just the ones that really piss soldiers and/or contractors off).

After all, prisoners are lucky to be alive! They should be on thier knees thanking us keepers for treating them like the shit they are! matter of fact when those couple of airborne guys had thier prisoner their real mistake was killing him - the torture/highschool hijinks they subjected their prisoner to was fine because the kid was lucky to be alive. If they had kept their prisoner alive there'd have been no problem, right?

If there is no cash to be made by holding prisoners then the taliban execute them, normally down with a dull knife and sawing the head off....but no where in my post have i said we should be as brutal, no where have i agreed on the mistreatment of prisoners, infact i wanted him to either face justice in Afghan or come home to face our courts....

As for the Airbourne guys , what they did was wrong, what the government did was wrong and what the Canadian people allowed the Regt to go thru is wrong.....but thats another story.

So why cant our nations laws make charges stick? Well, actually they can - our prisons are packed full of people who found our nations laws made charges stick. Seems to be a pretty regular occurence. Mind you, our courts tend to rely on evidence; doubts the veracity of statements made under duress; Hearsay is normally not allowed; witnesses can be questioned by the accused etc etc and on and on

Touche....yes we have charged and found guilty ...thousands of guilty bastards....and yet we also allow to run our streets and neiborhoods dozens of known terrorists, Khadr older brother, his other brother which is on the CIA payroll or was...all have supported , gather funds , or assisted terrorist activities....they've even admitted as much but either there is no edvidence or we failed to prosecute....

The charges against Khadr may or may not stick should he be charged in Canada, but apparently neither the PMO's office, CSIS nor the RCMP are convinced that any crime widdle Omar is charged with could hold up in court against normal court procedures that regularly lock away hundreds upon hundreds of people.

You know what that makes me think? It makes me think that any evidence against Khadr has been so tainted by the American military's free-for-all against terrorism, that little of such evidence would survive a regular courts scrutiny.

Thats to bad, as i've said at the begining of this whole Khadr thing it was my personal feelings that any or all charges will be droped and he will be welcomed with open arms back into Canada....justice is not served....much like the OJ case we know he done it just could not prove it....

Which sends what message to the world.....we are fair and just...or we could not find justice with both hands in the daylight.....and all terrorist are welcome....

What? Canada doesn't have 'Security Certificates'? oh...yes we do

Security Certificate

The real problem is that Canada has no seperate system for trying accused terrorists outside of the normal courts system. Perhaps Canada should create a seperate system with modified rules to make it easier to charge terrorists and modified rules of evidence to make it easier to find terrorists guilty. We can look south to the Military commssions for an example of such a system and how it went over like a lead balloon.

First you have to issue them right....much like on of the leading characters in the Rwanda geniocide, living here in toronto....for how many years....i know there is problems every where....but come on....I will agree with you a Military commision is not the way to go....only because DND is not set up for this type of high profile trail....but then again nither is our civil courts....i think we are setting our selfs up for failure....and sending the wrong signals to the world....maybe the only answer is sending him to Afghan ...

[Army Guy]

I have written higher that Omar, from my perpective, should be guarded in a psychiatric institution.

Until when , he is deemed fit, then what does he face the orginal charges....or is he released back into Canada....

[waldo]

... i have in past posts agreed fully that all prisoners should be treated as per the genva convention.....

(bold emphasis added)

oh, have you? ... or, once again, when called on it, will you again reach for your trusted 'wiggle-room' formal "Prisoner of War (POW)" designation?

or... in terms of the "child soldier" aspect, will you again reach for your trusted 'wiggle-room' to suggest it doesn't apply to Khadr? Apparently, you leverage the Geneva Convention when it suits your agenda:

In international armed conflicts, children with prisoner-of-war status benefit from the protection of the Third Geneva Convention and cannot be prosecuted for taking part in hostilities. Children treated as civilian internees are entitled to the protection granted by the Fourth Geneva Convention of 1949 and Additional Protocol I of 1977, as well as by human rights law.

by the by... what about ethics? Should one so closely engaged as yourself, effectively an "agent/ally" for one side, be so adamantly expressing rules of law and freely designating/assigning guilt?

[benny]

Until when , he is deemed fit, then what does he face the orginal charges....or is he released back into Canada....

I imagine Omar being released with some new "for life" friends he met in this institution, all former Canadian soldiers who were in the same institution to heal from PTSD.