Harper Working on Scrapping the Gun Registry!

[jdobbin]

How many times a day to the police access Google? Of course the police will access it if it's there (shrug) even keeping in mind how unreliable it is, they will at least check it before going to a house. But I have yet to see any kind of evidence that it's actually of much use.

Has Harper attempted to find out?

Has anyone actually demonstrated how the database has ever helped in police investigations?

It is why Harper should ask the police and Attorney-Generals across Canada. Or do you think he should just cut the program before finding out?

Instead of spending billions on this, what should have been done was tighten up laws on gun smuggling and sale, and then fund sting squads to go into bars and clubs and try to buy guns. I can still remember the story of an newspaper journalist, a very suburban guy with no street knowledge, who was sent down to Ottawa's Rideau street to check the bars and try to buy a hand gun for a story. It took him half an hour.

You won't have any arguments there from me.

If it would land you in prison for five years, no bail, no parole, if you were caught selling illegal firearms or smuggling them across the boarder, then ten years for a following offense, I bet it would be a LOT harder to get hold of hand guns and automatic weapons. For that matter, if we would enforce the current laws on carrying firearms, or on using them, that would also have a strong affect. But judges so far have refused.

I think a sentence is now 3 years and many more for a second offence. It hasn't made a dent in the trade.

We have had legislation since 1998 to track smuggling but neither the Liberals or Tories have gone ahead with collecting the data.

[jdobbin]

I'm not a huge fan of Harper, but score one for him.

Perhaps he will consult with law enforcement before making a decision.

[Keepitsimple]

Progressive Tory likes to continually use the term "Gun Registry" when in fact it is the "Long Gun Registry". Canadians are often confused by this devious misrepresentation and it goes a long way to explaining some of the polls on the subject. It has always been difficult to legally carry a handgun - or for that matter, any restricted firearm. Recent changes have made it even more difficult with many firearms and other weapons completely prohibited. Here are some excerpts from the Firearms Academy of Canada, explaining who would qualify and what you'd have to do to legally possess a handgun along with a description on non-restricted, restricted and prohibited weapons. The pointlessness of the Long Gun registry is that it doesn't deal with handguns at all.

Link: http://www.guns.to/fac/

You do not require a Firearms Permit in order to have a non-restricted firearm at a location other than where it is registered, nor to transport it. After January 1, 2001, you will need your Firearms License (FL) and, after January 1, 2003, your Registration Card for the firearm.

You do need a permit for a restricted firearm, though. These permits are called "Authorizations to Transport" (ATT). There are two basic versions: those issued for a specific point-to-point occasion, and those issued for multiple events or for an extended period.

If you acquire a firearm, if you move, or if you take your restricted firearm to a gunsmith, or to a gunshop, or to a gun show, you would get a one-time ATT by calling the Canadian Firearms Centre at 1-800-731-4000.

If you use your firearm for work, or if you belong to a gun club and want to use your restricted firearm for target practice, you would get an ATT valid for an extended period of time (up to 3 years). This permit is obtained by and through the organization you belong to -- i.e. the gun club, or your employer.

Certain individuals who need restricted firearms for protection against predators in the wilderness (trappers, prospectors), or for survival (bush pilots), can obtain such a permit through the CFC, after completing a special wilderness training course.

It is extremely unlikely that you would be able to

obtain a permit to carry a firearm for any other reason.

There are three classes of firearms in Canada:

Non-restricted firearms are ordinary hunting and sporting rifles and shotguns with an overall length of 660mm or greater. If it is a centrefire semi-automatic firearm, the barrel length must be at least 470mm to qualify as non-restricted. Certain firearms, although they meet the above criteria, have been classified as "restricted" or "prohibited" by order-in-council. While these firearms must be stored, transported and displayed according to the regulations, you do not need a permit to have them with you. Bear in mind that there are other Government bodies who may have a say in how these firearms are handled (for instance, hunting regulations require that firearms be encased at night).

Restricted firearms include all handguns, and other firearms which are shorter than the above specifications. Again, some other firearms are classified as "restricted" by order-in-council. A permit is required to move a restricted firearm from the location where the firearm is registered.

Prohibited Firearms include all fully automatic firearms, and a variety of other firearms which have been classified as "prohibited" by order-in-council. Some prohibited firearms are "grandfathered" to their current owners, but they cannot transfer them to those not similarly qualified. For example, firearms converted from fully automatic to semi automatic, and certain handguns (barrel lengths under 105mm, .25 or .32 calibre) fall into that class.

There are other "prohibited weapons" that are not firearms. These include certain martial arts implements, switchblades, stun guns, high capacity magazines, etc.

[Argus]

I think a sentence is now 3 years and many more for a second offence. It hasn't made a dent in the trade.

The gun laws are NOT being applied anywhere, so far as I know. In almost all cases where judges even consider the gun laws, they simply impose a sentence which runs concurrent with whatever other sentence they're handing out - thus effectively rending it meaningless. The government needs to ensure the gun laws are enforced and that the sentences are consecutive, not concurrent.

I have to say that, as someone who regularly reads a number of national newspapers, I cannot recall ever reading someone being sentenced on a gun smuggling or gun possession law. However, I was able to google a case, so it is possible it's being applied now and then, but the mere fact that the news story contains the following passage:

The revelations came at a sentencing hearing Thursday for a biker associate who pleaded guilty to the rare charge of weapons trafficking following his arrest in a major undercover project.

Would indicate that even journalists are aware that such laws are rarely laid.

Yet we know damned well that weapons trafficking goes on all across the country on a daily basis.

[Molly]

Without re-arguing the whole debate, I'd say Argus provided a pretty accurate description of the politics of why and how we ended up with this silly registry...

but I'd propose that the liklihood of actually getting its removal through the house, or even of the matter recieving a meritorious effort, is negligible... meaning that this is also largely a sop, to re-gird the loins of the faithful, and not really a matter of serious intent.

[wulf42]

The gun laws should be applied to the real threats automatic assault rifles and Handguns...i will be the first to say that these weapons need strict control but not long guns, It is pretty hard to walk down a city street with a .300 Savage stuff under your coat...and not get noticed!

[MontyBurns]

I just finished reading the piece, and I don't agree. We need a gun registry and 67% of Canadians want a gun registry. He is only drawing attention to his pro-gun ideology, so soon after Garry Breitkreuz made headlines for attending an event where a handgun was being raffled off.

I agree that the gun registry needs to be revamped, but definitely not scrapped.

Harper is urging hunters to contact opposition MPs to scrap the registry, despite the fact that most of their constituents don't want it scrapped, including law enforcement. Police Officers say they use it regularly when answering a call, especially a domestic violence call, to see if there is a gun registered in the household. It doesn't prove there isn't one but is at least a heads up when they KNOW there is.

Harper says: "I challenge you to press these MPs to follow their consciences." They have and while they know that the gun registry won't stop gang violence, it's a useful tool in forcing gun owners to be more careful with these lethal weapons.

I loved the comments from one of the Gun Registry critics:

Jim Magee, a cattle farmer from Drumbo, Ont., near Woodstock, called the registry "aggravation." He said wild animals, like coyotes, will sometimes kill his livestock. "As soon as I get my gun out and get my ammunition that's locked away, the coyote is a mile away," Magee said, who is also a former police officer. "But if I keep (my gun) out and it gets stolen, I'm in trouble."

THERE IS NEVER A SITUATION WHERE YOUR AMMO SHOULD NOT BE LOCKED UP AWAY FROM THE GUN. YOUR GUN SHOULD NEVER BE LEFT AROUND LOADED AND IF THE COYOTE IS GONE, HOT DANG IF HE CAN'T GET ANYMORE OF YOUR LIVESTOCK NOW.

Or how about this one:

Frank DiRocco, an avid hunter and angler from Woodbridge, Ont., who was attending the Federation's 81st annual general meeting where Harper spoke. "Hunters are not the ones on the streets breaking the law -- they're enjoying the sport and the country," he said, adding he wants to teach his 12-year-old son to understand nature

He needs to kill living things to teach his son about nature? Yikes.

This article from a U.S paper is much better and makes a case for a better run registry of ALL guns.

Canada's low crime rate and unique gun-control system have played into Canada's identity as a peaceful, progressive place, in contrast to its neighbor to the south. There is no right to bear arms in the Canadian constitution, so the policy debate is much less heated than in the United States.

Canada created the gun registry in 1995, the result of persistent lobbying after 14 girls were shot at l'École Polytechnique in 1989 in an attack known as the Montreal Massacre.

Catherine Bergeron, whose sister died in the Montreal Massacre, is fighting the repeal of the registry.

"I find it incredible this debate still persists," she said. "Possessing a gun is a privilege, not a right."

Homicide rates have increased, but shootings mostly have been confined to neighborhoods inhabited by gangs. A poll released in May showed that although 67 percent of respondents want gun control, they don't want the current system. The poll also illustrated the geographic split in Canada: Support for some form of control reached 71 percent in the eastern, more urban provinces of Ontario and Quebec but only 51 percent in the western provinces, a traditionally conservative stronghold populated by more hunters and farmers.

Don't scrap it, fix it; but never ever allow one single Canadian to own one single gun and not register it. It reminds them of the danger of leaving a loaded gun in plain sight. Common sense should have told them that, but maybe the chance of it being stolen and used to kill someone, might force them to understand why.

You sound like a mindless drone of the Liberal party.

[waldo]

You sound like a mindless drone of the Liberal party.

in your best mindful antithesis, could ya help a brother out here... why, year after year, has the Canadian Association of Chiefs of Police come out in favour of the registry?

Why MontyBurns... inquiring minds are conflicted - please advise - thank you in advance

[Topaz]

I think we need a gun registry and I would think thre police would want that to so they could go online and check if the certain house they have to enter has a gun. I do think the registry should be free but All guns should be registered. What kind of a gun killed those RCMP?? It wasn't a hand gun was it!

[lictor616]

Damn right! It's about time too!! this nonsense has gone on long enough......gun control is an absolute failure the Gang violense is proof of this, billions of dollars were sunk into this all for nothing ! Its time to stop harassing innocent and law abiding gun owning citizens and start changing the laws to make stiffer penalities against Gang members including bringing back the death penality for this garbage....this country is full of weed smoking sissy liberals..and their time has come and gone......its time politicians go after and truly punish the people who are really causing all the gun violence..GANGS! and stop making life difficult for hunters and target shooters.

http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/stor...?hub=TopStories

as if criminals would obey gun registry statutes!

how STUPID can a liberal be?

why haven't they read up on australia and britain and their GROWING gun problem that for some reason came about AFTER they deprived their citizens of the right to keep arms.

I mean all the evidence is pretty clear: criminals don't obey the law... so making guns illegal is pretty nugatory if your trying to keep guns AWAY from criminals.. actually it will only make the black market that much stronger and actually facilitate arms sales.

so actually it makes things worst...

and of course who gets to flip the bill for this ginormous squandering of 2.4 BILLION dollars used to enact the registry? ah yes, the stupid bovine tax paying canadian animals.

I love it! Our masters enact a bill to deprive us of yet further rights, and increase our insecurity and vulnerability to criminals- and we get to pay for it!

if only canadians had back bone...

[85RZ500]

I think we need a gun registry and I would think thre police would want that to so they could go online and check if the certain house they have to enter has a gun. I do think the registry should be free but All guns should be registered. What kind of a gun killed those RCMP?? It wasn't a hand gun was it!

The RCMP knew the perp was a nutcase with guns. And do you think anything qould have turned out differently if the guns were registered?

Three LEOS were just killed in Oakland Calif. The perp had an AK47, registration would have stopped that tragedy too, right?

And the same for those unfortunates in Montreal years ago, registered or not the results would have been the same.

Edited March 22, 2009 by 85RZ500

[wulf42]

as if criminals would obey gun registry statutes!

how STUPID can a liberal be?

why haven't they read up on australia and britain and their GROWING gun problem that for some reason came about AFTER they deprived their citizens of the right to keep arms.

I mean all the evidence is pretty clear: criminals don't obey the law... so making guns illegal is pretty nugatory if your trying to keep guns AWAY from criminals.. actually it will only make the black market that much stronger and actually facilitate arms sales.

so actually it makes things worst...

and of course who gets to flip the bill for this ginormous squandering of 2.4 BILLION dollars used to enact the registry? ah yes, the stupid bovine tax paying canadian animals.

I love it! Our masters enact a bill to deprive us of yet further rights, and increase our insecurity and vulnerability to criminals- and we get to pay for it!

if only canadians had back bone...

You couldn't have put it any better..this country has been in the grip of dope smoking bleeding heart Liberals for way to many years who care more for the rights of criminals than everyday citizens...years of Liberal mindset has left many Canadians passive and spineless............the Liberals would take away all hunter firearms and continue letting crimianls arm themselves............i mean God forbid we actually put criminals away for good or give them the death penality.....that might hurt the criminals feelings in the Liberals eyes! Bottom line is the registry is Liberal corruption and has no effect on gun violence whatsoever since criminals are getting their Tech-9's,UZI,S and Glock 9 mm's on the black market from the U.S.!

[noahbody]

I think we need a gun registry and I would think thre police would want that to so they could go online and check if the certain house they have to enter has a gun.

My experience has told me that the greatest hazard to police officers is complacence and I found it prudent to continually remind my staff of that fact. Relying on a flawed system for officer safety will eventually lead to a tragedy. It is unfortunate that the CACP did not take the time to consider the consequences of their position and the safety of the men and women they represent

.

LEN GRINNELL, RETIRED RCMP STAFF-SARGEANT

http://www.cdnshootingsports.org/what_poli...t_registry.html

[noahbody]

in your best mindful antithesis, could ya help a brother out here... why, year after year, has the Canadian Association of Chiefs of Police come out in favour of the registry?

What speaks volumes is when police speak out against such a useful tool:

http://www.cdnshootingsports.org/what_poli...t_registry.html

The only thing the registry has accomplished is to prove criminals don't register their long guns either. Who would have guessed that?

Spending over $2 Million per registered long gun homicide on a registry is idiotic, especially because it can't be relied on by police and because it doesn't prevent homicides. That's a lot to pay for statistics.

Edited April 6, 2009 by noahbody

[normanchateau]

this nonsense has gone on long enough......gun control is an absolute failure the Gang violense is proof of this, billions of dollars were sunk into this all for nothing ! Its time to stop harassing innocent and law abiding gun owning citizens and start changing the laws to make stiffer penalities against Gang members including bringing back the death penality for this garbage....this country is full of weed smoking sissy liberals..and their time has come and gone......its time politicians go after and truly punish the people who are really causing all the gun violence..GANGS! and stop making life difficult for hunters and target shooters.

this nonsense has gone on long enough......criminalization of marijuana is an absolute failure the Gang violense is proof of this, billions of dollars were sunk into this all for nothing ! Its time to stop harassing innocent citizens for marijuana possession and start changing the laws to legalize marijuana and make stiffer penalities against Gang members including bringing back the death penality for this garbage....this country is full of organized criminal weed sellers..and their time has come and gone......its time politicians go after and truly punish the people who are really causing all the crime..GANGS! and stop making life difficult for Canadians who'd be perfectly happy to buy government-controlled marijuana.

[lictor616]

You couldn't have put it any better..this country has been in the grip of dope smoking bleeding heart Liberals for way to many years who care more for the rights of criminals than everyday citizens...years of Liberal mindset has left many Canadians passive and spineless............the Liberals would take away all hunter firearms and continue letting crimianls arm themselves............i mean God forbid we actually put criminals away for good or give them the death penality.....that might hurt the criminals feelings in the Liberals eyes! Bottom line is the registry is Liberal corruption and has no effect on gun violence whatsoever since criminals are getting their Tech-9's,UZI,S and Glock 9 mm's on the black market from the U.S.!

hear hear,

"Among the many misdeeds of British rule in India, history will look upon the Act depriving a whole nation of arms as the blackest."

-- Mohandas Gandhi, An Autobiography, pg 446

The people of the various provinces are strictly forbidden to have in their possession any swords, short swords, bows, spears, firearms, or other types of arms. The possession of unnecessary implements makes difficult the collection of taxes and dues and tends to foment uprisings.

-- Toyotomi Hideyoshi, dictator of Japan, August 1588

"One of the ordinary modes, by which tyrants accomplish their purposes without resistance, is, by disarming the people, and making it an offense to keep arms."

-- Constitutional scholar and Supreme Court Justice Joseph Story, 1840

"The bearing of arms is the essential medium through which the individual asserts both his social power and his participation in politics as a responsible moral being..."

-- J.G.A. Pocock, describing the beliefs of the founders of the U.S.

its time for canadians to water the tree of liberty with the blood of tyrants... (read: the blood of liberals)

far too much of the blood of our ancestors was shed to obtain the rights and liberty we have today...

Edited March 22, 2009 by lictor616

[normanchateau]

...the Liberals would ...continue letting criminals arm themselves............i mean God forbid we actually put criminals away for good or give them the death penality.....that might hurt the criminals feelings in the Liberals eyes! Bo

Liberal MPs support Conservative anti-crime legislation:

http://www.nationalpost.com/news/story.html?id=1331895

[waldo]

in your best mindful antithesis, could ya help a brother out here... why, year after year, has the Canadian Association of Chiefs of Police come out in favour of the registry?

Why MontyBurns... inquiring minds are conflicted - please advise - thank you in advance

What speaks volumes is when police speak out against such a useful tool:

you quoted the question... but didn't answer it.

one can usually find examples of individuals on both sides of any issue. In the case I cited, the Canadian Association of Chiefs of Police represents more than 90% of the police chiefs in Canada. Why would that prominent and recognized association of Police Chiefs come out, so consistently - year after year - as an expressed advocate for the gun registry? What does that association of Police Chiefs know... or not know... that you, noahbody... that you, MontyBurns... that you, wulf42... know - or don't know?

[capricorn]

Canada created the gun registry in 1995, the result of persistent lobbying after 14 girls were shot at l'École Polytechnique in 1989 in an attack known as the Montreal Massacre.

At the time the Liberals didn't know what to do in the face of all that lobbying hence the gun registry. That move by the Liberals was commonly referred to a "knee-jerk reaction" to the tragedy.

----

Gun Control, gun crimes, gun lies

-snip-

First of all, gun registration has been the law of the land for at least twenty years and if the Star's editorial writer didn't know that, then maybe writing editorials shouldn't be his or her job. The claim that the registry was unpopular with many rural people is true, albeit it wasn't only "hard-core" Conservatives who felt the Canadian Firearms Registry to be overly intrusive. And yes, there is the obligatory dig at those who are opposed to the Firearms Registry being in cahoots with the American gun lobby, a typical ham-fisted hack job from the newspaper that never met a socialist nannie-state program it didn't like.

But all that aside, there are a lot of reasons why the Canadian Gun Registry should be kept intact. Here are the top 10:

#10 To keep dyslexic bureaucrats employed

#9 The government has too much money

#8 Taxpayers aren't paying enough money

#7 Show those snotty Conservatives who's boss

#6 Serve as a template for a future silverware registry

#5 Make Jean Chretien feel good about himself

#4 Continue to keep our cities' streets safe

#3 To show the Americans we know better

#2 Keep Jack Layton from being assassinated

And the number one reason why we should keep the Canadian Gun Registry intact:

Because it's all about Canadian Values.

http://www.canadafreepress.com/2006/klaus052006.htm

(Can't find the Toronto Star's original article of May 17, 2006 by Olivia Ward referenced in the above.)

[normanchateau]

We've always had a gun registry, PT.

Not always. Hand gun registration in Canada became mandatory in 1934. If Harper wants to turn back the clock, why do it incrementally? Let those poor hunters be able to hunt with whatever weapon they want. Criminals continue to have access to hand guns so that's hardly a reason to require those poor unfortunate hunters to register their weapons.

[guyser]

..way to many years who care more for the rights of criminals than everyday citizens...

I see nothing has changed with respect to your continual posting of untruths and half baked bs.

Anyone supporting that rights be respected means just that. No more for one than the other, criminal or not.Doubt you'll ever grasp that concept, but it is the truth.

........i mean God forbid we actually put criminals away for good or give them the death penality.....that might hurt the criminals feelings in the Liberals eyes!

See?

And if you want to laugh see how someone agrees , yet contradicts himself moments later...

hear hear,

far too much of the blood of our ancestors was shed to obtain the rights and liberty we have today...

Can you spot it?

[lictor616]

I see nothing has changed with respect to your continual posting of untruths and half baked bs.

Anyone supporting that rights be respected means just that. No more for one than the other, criminal or not.Doubt you'll ever grasp that concept, but it is the truth.

See?

And if you want to laugh see how someone agrees , yet contradicts himself moments later...

Can you spot it?

you're quoting two different people btw...

[guyser]

you're quoting two different people btw...

Wow, master of the obvious. ....except you didnt spot it.

Not surprised.

[lictor616]

Wow, master of the obvious. ....except you didnt spot it.

Not surprised.

well how can different statements from 2 different people, be a self contradiction...

I never said anything about the death penalty one way or the other...

so what is it you're trying to say?

[wulf42]

Wow, master of the obvious. ....except you didnt spot it.

Not surprised.

Lol..............still trying to defend corrupt Liberal policies eh Guyser?? well good luck with that! Gun control is working just great isn't it? just ask Vancouver and Toronto!