Unethical Treatment of Animals

[heretoday]

We don't normally think of wool and the wool industry as being harmful to wool bearing animals but think again. Interesting read:

http://downmystreetandupyours.blogspot.com...s-at-price.html

Edited February 24, 2009 by heretoday

[M.Dancer]

Baa Ram Ewe....

I love wool bearing animals....but with a curry sauce, not mint.

[bill_barilko]

Old Old News

The fact is that the wool business is a shadow of what it once was, a sunset industry.

[DogOnPorch]

Just don't ask where the fur for that Chinese plush toy comes from...merow.

-------------------------------------------

Itsafake-a

[Oleg Bach]

I heard a smart ass hyper-active talk show guy going on and on about religion and how he was so sophisticated for being an agnostic church going atheist. People actually believe he is an intellectual...He has a very rapid firing brain - some equate speed with wisdom...not always so. The old definition of demon was a very very fast mischievious spirit. Here is the crux of my statement concerning the abuse and torment of lower creatures. There was a time when humanity was supposed to be a steward and protector of all lower creatures - they were his ward.

This talk show host spewed out something very contradictory and hypocritial today...First he states "Animals don't think" - Then he goes on about how clever he is....Then he states that "Humans are herd ANIMALS" - I assume he is human and he imagines himself to think - but frankly he does not. There is always a very slippery slope when attempting as PETA does to give human rights to animals --- or creating a field of equality...Once you debase the devine human creature to the level of an animal...which most acedemics - secularist and religious teachers attempt to do - then our relationship with animals becomes on of animal on animal - with no steward ship or protection of the lower and more vulnerable species ---We have incrimentally over the centuries become very smart and deadly preditors...and instead of caring for our lessors we ruthlessly consume them - animal and man.

As for the sheep - they are being tormented by other animals - human ones - and high acedemia and big buisness want us to behave like animals - because if we become the lower preditors on their food chain we abuse our lessor humans and our vulneralbe and speechless fellow inhabitants of earth...It is like this - as for buisness - If you are to be promoted you must agree that you will whip the slaves of lower rank..and those lower slaves will take the postion of whipping those of even lower rank - then the whole system runs itself... and in the end - we lose all compassion and empathy for our fellow humans - once this is done - compassion for animals is totally gone.

[bjre]

So many human beings has no job include some commit suicide and some kill his boss after being laid off. So many human beings are in poverty. Do you think if people should have higher priority than animals?

And I have another concern, I have heard that some organizations take a lot of donations in their office spent and their own salary, but the amount actually used in the topic they advertised are very limited.

[Rue]

So many human beings has no job include some commit suicide and some kill his boss after being laid off. So many human beings are in poverty. Do you think if people should have higher priority than animals?

And I have another concern, I have heard that some organizations take a lot of donations in their office spent and their own salary, but the amount actually used in the topic they advertised are very limited.

The debate as to animal rights and treatment very much is reflected in the cultural values of each society and of course its level of lifestyle.

I think for many of us who live in urban societies that have pretty much cut us off from the world of nature and encased us in cement and pollution often the concern about the mistreatment of animals is a symptom of our spiritual malaise from being trapped in cement and a world of impersonal material pursuit.

It is amazing how one's perspective changes when they leave the city for a rural area and what kind of work they do.

Example, on the one hand for those of us in the city, killing seals seems cruel and inhumane-but if you are a Newfoundlander who depends on it for a living and it is a necessity the seals don't look so cute.

In Canada some of us spoil our cats and dogs and of course in other countries they are eaten or treated like vermin.

I personally think the teachings and customs of our native peoples are valuable guides to dealing with these kinds of issues.

If we respect the rules of nature and understand we are part of the planet sharing it with other life forms-a lot of the kinds of issues that flow from animal cruely and animal rights type debates take on I think an easier to reconcile perspective between needing animals to eat and keep us warm and not torturing or abusing animals.

I am the first to admit, since I buy my meat in nice neat cellophane packages and not directly from the slaughter-house, it makes it easier for me to forgive myself.

I love animals. I hate fruit and vegetables. It is a problem.

Edited February 25, 2009 by Rue

[M.Dancer]

About 20 years ago I met a woman who described herself as an activist (Have Placard, will travel) She was going on about the rich and the poor and how the rich were too rich and should be forced to pay for the poor.

I got tired of her tedious argument so I piped in...."there can't be many poor in Toronto or at least they aren't that poor." She retorted with some figures and her voice got shriller, louder, plainly getting angry that I could dismiss such facts out of hand.

So I said "...with all the geese running around without a care in the world if there were so many poor and hungry people in Toronto there would be much fewer geese."

She thought I was joking.

My mother who was 12 in 1929 told me about her father and how he coped to feed 13 kids when the depression hit Montreal. He built a pigeon coop on the back porch and caught a covey(?) of pigeons and turned to breeding them. pigeons lay eggs, the family ate pigeon eggs. They ate pigeon (or as I like to call it, squab)...he sold pigeons fresh or live to neighbours and friends. Then in the shed he built a rabbit pen and went and caught rabbits...

Needless to say my grandfather was from a time and place when poaching was the norm and buying your chickens live was common.

My mother would never cook for us either rabbit or squab saying she had killed, cleaned and cooked her fill in the 30s...

[Muddy]

We as humans have a right to harvest animals for food or to clothes ourselves. We have an obligation not to inflict undue pain on animals. But animals do not have rights. The screwballs from PETA are absolutely bonkers. I also have wondered why we have so many Canada geese around Toronto when there are supposed to be so many poor and homeless people. Ever offer a bum a meal ,er, homeless,a meal? They always refuse my gesture. They just want my money. I don`t give Bums money but I am willing to feed the hungary.

[bill_barilko]

We as humans have a right to harvest animals for food or to clothes ourselves.

Link?

[cybercoma]

As an extension of the idea that we can only truly argue this idea because we are living in urban societies...

I would go further and say the "vegan" culture, ironically (since they can be stereotypically defined as leftist communal-types), further alienates us from our agrarian origins and self-sustenance. The further removed from this way of life we become, the more reliant we become on a capitalist economic system that relies on hollow consumption. Veganism, although supported as an issue of "animal rights" and supposedly a way of communing and becoming closer with nature, in actuality is further alienating us from it.

edit: clarity... which is still doubtful.

Edited February 27, 2009 by cybercoma

[M.Dancer]

Link?

Sausages

[cybercoma]

www.itsinthebiblelookitupgodtoldusso.com

[DarkAngel_]

well this topic is odd because i could die 100 life times and still see a case worth a Buddhists starving for protest... and a few sound... well... delusional...

well ill start by saying hi to cybercoma, long time no hear from, and to quote:

As an extension of the idea that we can only truly argue this idea because we are living in urban societies...

I would go further and say the "vegan" culture, ironically (since they can be stereotypically defined as leftist communal-types), further alienates us from our agrarian origins and self-sustenance. The further removed from this way of life we become, the more reliant we become on a capitalist economic system that relies on hollow consumption. Vegganism, although supported as an issue of "animal rights" and supposedly a way of communing and becoming closer with nature, in actuality is further alienating us from it.

do i detect communism?! interesting... but yeah vegginism is not natural, its 'non-harming' more like a doctrine... but i like meat and being a human as well.

We as humans have a right to harvest animals for food or to clothes ourselves. We have an obligation not to inflict undue pain on animals. But animals do not have rights. The screwballs from PETA are absolutely bonkers. I also have wondered why we have so many Canada geese around Toronto when there are supposed to be so many poor and homeless people. Ever offer a bum a meal ,er, homeless,a meal? They always refuse my gesture. They just want my money. I don`t give Bums money but I am willing to feed the hungary.

and Muddy that's just mean! we are observers of worldly things and without heart for what is beautiful, no measure of meat or cloth is deserved, 'if you feed happy cattle they give good milk.' my great grandfather would say, as well as guiding a line of green beans up a fencing helped it grow more fruitful... but i digress meat is good and i like to think we do try to keep it in stock, but we are not barbarians as you make it sound, so: "bad muddy, we do that outside" *points at pretend puddle *

I heard a smart ass hyper-active talk show guy going on and on about religion and how he was so sophisticated for being an agnostic church going atheist. People actually believe he is an intellectual...He has a very rapid firing brain - some equate speed with wisdom...not always so. The old definition of demon was a very very fast mischievious spirit. Here is the crux of my statement concerning the abuse and torment of lower creatures. There was a time when humanity was supposed to be a steward and protector of all lower creatures - they were his ward.

and Oleg Bach i found your response... well odd.

our ancestors were retarded by there immediate situation, (also they were a bunch of drunks! lol beer...)

the only barrier being breached is human opinion and human cruelty, a common thing from idiots with no eyes watching them to call them deviants and bad people... all that's needed is an area of control and the temptation to do the unspeakable 'behind closed doors' case closed. science never said what is insinuated, those are opinions and actions of this caliber are done from the hands of know 'self-forgivers.' religion is no reason to put a cat in a room and say 'i deserve to take care of you...' that is naive. (not to mention creepy sounding) your belief is well founded and noted, but not taken by me grant you, though if translated i get it and somewhat agree minus the other stuff (don't insult science for fact before asking it for its proofs.) truth is, science is deduction, and morality is built up... it is not scientists obligation to state opinions on moral issues like if a cow being tipped is cruel even if the ability for them to get up is just fine... that's why we are here! don't you feel jolly and warm inside like a fuzzy stuffed animal oh, beg you pardon lol. (and we are animals... not debatable just boring.)

Just don't ask where the fur for that Chinese plush toy comes from...merow.

is that where that dog came from????LOL just kidding, oh i love to laugh.

I personally think the teachings and customs of our native peoples are valuable guides to dealing with these kinds of issues.

Rue i agree mostly, my great grandpa was Cherokee/Mohawk so he followed a similar belief

note i do not wish to dictate belief or opinion. but what is beyond the good and evil of it? there is always 2 sides or more, and no one wins, but that does not make it futile just boring. if anything guidelines should be kept in place but no, sheep rape still happens occasionally and veggins still hate us for eating red meat, or any meat for that matter.

but what do i know I'm just an ageist in a unique circumstance... debating 1 simple thing.... when do i get my stake!!!

Edited February 27, 2009 by DarkAngel_

[WIP]

So many human beings has no job include some commit suicide and some kill his boss after being laid off. So many human beings are in poverty. Do you think if people should have higher priority than animals?

Here's why we should be concerned about animals (and plants for that matter), and the impact we are making on the natural environment:

just because we are smart enough to build cities and re-engineer our habitats to our liking, doesn't mean that we have conquered nature, or even understand the climate and ecological cycles that keep the planet habitable. In fact, a mass extinction cycle - something that has happened many times in Earth's history - is already well under way: A new scientific report has warned that climate change could lead to the extinction of a million of the world's species as soon as 2050.

and

In 2003 the World Conservation Union's Red List said more than 12,000 species (out of 40,000 assessed) faced some extinction risk, including:

* one bird in eight

* 13% of the world's flowering plants

* a quarter of all mammals.

Our pillage of the natural world has been likened to burning down the medieval libraries of Europe, before we had even bothered to catalogue their contents.

Many species keep us alive, purifying water, fixing nitrogen, recycling nutrients and waste, and pollinating crops.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/3667300.stm

In other words, those jobs won't be worth a whole hell of a lot if we are soon to join the extinction list.

[WIP]

As an extension of the idea that we can only truly argue this idea because we are living in urban societies...

I would go further and say the "vegan" culture, ironically (since they can be stereotypically defined as leftist communal-types), further alienates us from our agrarian origins and self-sustenance.

Nonsense! Since we have many times too many people on Earth to go back to our "agrarian origins." To be factually correct, our origins are as hunter/gatherers, not farmers -- and we certainly have way too many people to go back and live in the forests, anymore than sending 90% of the population back to the farms.

Now, I'm not a vegan, but I think they have a valid point that the livestock industries that supply most of our meat are a huge waste of natural resources. From the last numbers I heard on the subject, the most efficient factory farms still need ten pounds of feed to make one pound of meat. And livestock requires huge amounts of water -- a subject that is going to need more attention in the future, since most regions of the world are already facing water shortages.

The further removed from this way of life we become, the more reliant we become on a capitalist economic system that relies on hollow consumption. Veganism, although supported as an issue of "animal rights" and supposedly a way of communing and becoming closer with nature, in actuality is further alienating us from it.

Actually, most of the world has mixed economies, but this still depends on continued economic growth; and that presents an ecological problem even if the world's population can be stabilized, since economic growth means using more natural resources. Right now, every government in the world is trying to figure out how to restart the economic growth engine -- in the longterm, there are limits to both economic and population growth, since the planet isn't going to grow larger to accommodate human desires. But if anything, veganism would be a step in the right direction.

Nevertheless, a mass migration away from using animal products would

[Muddy]

Talking about animal husbandry, it`s reassuring that the white man slaughtered millions of Bison. They would be creating havoc with the enviroment now with all that flatulance polluting our air if they had been left in the millions. Kids would be being trampled, traffic would be snarled across the plains .

[DarkAngel_]

Now, I'm not a vegan, but I think they have a valid point that the livestock industries that supply most of our meat are a huge waste of natural resources. From the last numbers I heard on the subject, the most efficient factory farms still need ten pounds of feed to make one pound of meat. And livestock requires huge amounts of water -- a subject that is going to need more attention in the future, since most regions of the world are already facing water shortages.

fish leads the way in feeding our protein appetite. so smart farming = well fed. i mean wow scientists are even looking into turning trout and salmon vegetarian relying off from feed-like food only... very good news for Africa if it succeeds,as it seems to be doing! watched a video on C-Span 2 on their efforts, as well as the 'quick and large' growing wheat's and other produce.

as for our "agrarian origins." it is now a different stage, time, dynamic, and number of which we live it so going back is unwise as even a thought for solution, in truth only 'close to human extinction' would revert us to such an origin as defined. but overall a better control of livestock and our farming methods would put a good dent on waste, hunger, and the effect on creatures consumed...

and i agree about human impact being the most influential... like swarms of locust to give as example, often other animals that are bigger have environmental impact by numbers more then action... contact alone is natural but when it causes other creatures to disappear? things could go wrong very slowly, but if we are lucky its noticeable, and fixable. (cruelty is often a natural attribute of even the most beautiful things, i was left for dead in the woods once, i should know.)

[Oleg Bach]

fish leads the way in feeding our protein appetite. so smart farming = well fed. i mean wow scientists are even looking into turning trout and salmon vegetarian relying off from feed-like food only... very good news for Africa if it succeeds,as it seems to be doing! watched a video on C-Span 2 on their efforts, as well as the 'quick and large' growing wheat's and other produce.

as for our "agrarian origins." it is now a different stage, time, dynamic, and number of which we live it so going back is unwise as even a thought for solution, in truth only 'close to human extinction' would revert us to such an origin as defined. but overall a better control of livestock and our farming methods would put a good dent on waste, hunger, and the effect on creatures consumed...

and i agree about human impact being the most influential... like swarms of locust to give as example, often other animals that are bigger have environmental impact by numbers more then action... contact alone is natural but when it causes other creatures to disappear? things could go wrong very slowly, but if we are lucky its noticeable, and fixable. (cruelty is often a natural attribute of even the most beautiful things, i was left for dead in the woods once, i should know.)

Nature and creatures are one of our most dear comforts. I am no vegan or PETA type - but I know one thing - the creatures think..and they feel and are terrorised by us.....be kind to nature and she will kiss you softly - and talking to the dog is fine - give it a million years and they will have lips and be talking - in the mean time they listen....I love this planet - this heaven - don't make it a hell of us or the creatures... This is heaven - and an eternity...after this - it's mystery ---- besides the eggs of the industrial chicken are a gage to our abuse - they are paper thin - I am old enough to have seen the degrading of all life forms...including us - once we debase and torment the creatures and it becomes more common place we are next.

[DarkAngel_]

Nature and creatures are one of our most dear comforts. I am no vegan or PETA type - but I know one thing - the creatures think..and they feel and are terrorised by us.....be kind to nature and she will kiss you softly - and talking to the dog is fine - give it a million years and they will have lips and be talking - in the mean time they listen....I love this planet - this heaven - don't make it a hell of us or the creatures... This is heaven - and an eternity...after this - it's mystery ---- besides the eggs of the industrial chicken are a gage to our abuse - they are paper thin - I am old enough to have seen the degrading of all life forms...including us - once we debase and torment the creatures and it becomes more common place we are next.

Again you surprise me with soft words, for that I've great respect. but to make clear: i have no hell-thought of a 'havoc filled' or 'cruel world' as i have none for my 'before sunrise' and 'admiring majesty's' as i would hold no such thought of the comforts... we are as cultivated as we seem to be and we are falsely secure. as it must be, nature see's things as just a usable resource... bleeding out 15 miles from civilization. i know what hell it can be, but i marvel at it! i love that i realized nature would take you or me just as readily as a leaf... no bias. there is 'beyond good and evil' and in this proposition of argument, the immutable man seems less esteemed to me. life is cruel, beautiful, and becoming of itself; chaotic, passionate, and free...

of all that... it loves.

the eggs i see being lifted are wholesome here, man has will to be free of destruction until it is decided by us to end... unfortunately for those who suffer this is a collective thought/choice that happens over so much time... those who say no may will there survival of that down fall, this doom-say is not absolute. the answer is simple, we are not enough of ourselves to know...yet.

or speak collectively.

animals have that same role and they have the same will, ours may be more powerful because of opposable thumbs, nice hard-wired brain, and looking incredibly handsome look but hey, they sacrifice as we do, no? we stepped away from primality, and into 'seeing' the song play.

but science will find a truth that connects it irrefutably... but this is off subject so i apologize to those who read, disappointingly.

[bush_cheney2004]

.... I am old enough to have seen the degrading of all life forms...including us - once we debase and torment the creatures and it becomes more common place we are next.

That is the logical solution....Soylent Green...it's people!!!

[DarkAngel_]

That is the logical solution....Soylent Green...it's people!!!

that's hilarious... reminds me of a 'Harvey bird man: attorney at law' episode.

"the mashed potato's are peeeeeeoplllllle! "*licks finger* nope, its just potato's....sorry!"

something akin to that, has anyone heard of the giant potato? they dry them out and send the dry powder to Africa apparently... i'll see if i can find an article.

Edited February 28, 2009 by DarkAngel_

[DrGreenthumb]

And I have another concern, I have heard that some organizations take a lot of donations in their office spent and their own salary, but the amount actually used in the topic they advertised are very limited.

Yeah like MADD Canada.

[DrGreenthumb]

"] A new scientific report has warned that climate change could lead to the extinction of a million of the world's species as soon as 2050. [/url]

and

In 2003 the World Conservation Union's Red List said more than 12,000 species (out of 40,000 assessed) faced some extinction risk, including:

* one bird in eight

* 13% of the world's flowering plants

* a quarter of all mammals.

I'll make sure that at least one certain flowering plant never goes extinct during my lifetime lol

hmm well i guess Indica and Sativa are two different species of plant so I'll make sure two flowering plants never go extinct.

[DrGreenthumb]

If you want to see unethical treatment of animals have a look inside one of the pig factories in Manitoba. Its disgusting. The sows are kept in cages so small they can not even turn around. They each sit in a "slot" once impregnated, until just before they give birth. They can not move back or forward or even turn around. They stand for months with head in the tough and their ass in position over the shit gutters. The corporatization of the farming industry leads to worse and more inhumane treatment of animals. Nothing matters but bigger profits.